Europe's resurgent far right focuses on immigration, multicultural

TimG · July 26, 2011

It isnt the cops fault that the shooter shot people.

The cops are paid to protect people. They failed in that duty. If an engineer builds a bridge that falls due a design flaw down the engineer is responsible. If a doctor prescribes medication that kills a patient due to an allegical reaction the doctor is responsible. If the police fail to show up at the scene of a shooting in a timely manner because their helicopter crew was on vacation then they are responsible. Edited July 26, 2011 by TimG

Peter F · July 26, 2011

The cops are paid to protect people. They failed in that duty.

Perhaps they did fail. But they carry zero blame/fault for the killings.

If an engineer builds a bridge that falls due a design flaw down the engineer is responsible.If a doctor prescribes medication that kills a patient due to an allegical reaction the doctor is responsible for not checking but If a guy takes a firearm and shoots people with it then its the fault of the police?

Thats plain rediculous.

TimG · July 26, 2011

If a guy takes a firearm and shoots people with it then its the fault of the police?

It is called criminal neglience causing death. It is not the same crime as murder but it is still a crime.

Peter F · July 26, 2011

It is called criminal neglience causing death. It is not the same crime as murder but it is still a crime.

Again, No. The police did not cause the deaths. The murderer caused the deaths.

TimG · July 26, 2011

Again, No. The police did not cause the deaths. The murderer caused the deaths.

The engineer did not cause the deaths from a bridge collapse. That was caused by weather. The doctor did not cause the death. That was caused by an allergic reaction. Does not change the fact that the engineer and doctor are still responsible for the deaths. Just like the police have responsibility here.

Shwa · July 26, 2011

I thought this is a good comment illustrating the pathetic opportunism of the left wing commentators:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/whos-to-blame-for-norways-tragedy/article2109213/

Where are the condemnations of Al Gore and his heated rhetoric that encourages unhinged people to resort to violence? (e.g. the Discovery Channel terroist a while back).

Blaming the Norwegian slaughter on xenophobic rhetoric makes about as much sense as blaming mail bombings on Al Gore, just because Ted Kaczynski had a marked-up copy of Earth in the Balance at his bedside.

Not the same thing, since there is a direct interpretation for Breivik, but not for Kaczynski with Gore. In other words, the "xenophobic rhetoric" that caused Breivik to slaughter was his own. I suspect the same with Kaczynski.

Bob · July 26, 2011

The responsibility for this monster's reprehensible crimes lie with one person and one person alone - himself. He radicalized himself - he details it in his manifesto. Download his manifesto and use the ctrl-f function to search for 'indoctrination', eventually you'll get to the part where he talks about self-indoctrination, including visualizing the act, imagining the future interrogation, philosophizing and meditating about the issues, listening to motivational music, overcoming fear, etc... it's quite frightening. Anyways, he is responsible for himself, although the usual suspects will undoubtedly try to blame conservative/right-wing politics and critics of Islamism for this monster's crime. Typical.

BC_chick · July 26, 2011

Wow there are lots of apologists on this board for right-wing terrorism.

Oh but this is what happens when you mix a little crazy with a feeling of desperation huh?

Um, moderate (cough cough) right wingers aren't all like this guy eh?

He does have a point even though the way he makes it is all wrong?

Really now?

Bob · July 27, 2011

Wow there are lots of apologists on this board for right-wing terrorism.

Oh but this is what happens when you mix a little crazy with a feeling of desperation huh?

Um, moderate (cough cough) right wingers aren't all like this guy eh?

He does have a point even though the way he makes it is all wrong?

Really now?

Thanks for the lies. Nobody is being an "apologist" for this mass murderer.

WWWTT · July 27, 2011

There are a couple people engaged in this thread who believe that this individual acted alone.

After the 9/11 incident the American government determined that the action was conducted by a group,then took action by invading the home base of this group(going after others responsible).

If then it is determined that the violent actions in Norway were that of a group and not an individual(hence there are some responsible still at large) will the Norwegian government crack down and start arresting right wing groups that they feel have contributed to this action?

I believe that this is the case.

After all it is the job of the police and justice system in Norway(or anywhere in the world) to protect the public.This crime has happened once and can happen again.

What will the definition of a right wing radical now be?How broad will it be?How many people/groups/parties will now fit under this umbrella?

Will new laws be written in Europe that specifically target right wing extremist such as was done to target Islamic terrorism?

WWWTT

kimmy · July 27, 2011

He does have a point even though the way he makes it is all wrong?

Really now?

Is that such an outrageous idea?

If the Earth Liberation Front kills someone during one of their arson attacks, does that make that the idea of ecological conservancy is inherently wrong? Does it mean that all of the non-violent environmentalists should be lumped in with Earth Liberation Front because they support the same goals?

-k

kimmy · July 27, 2011

After all it is the job of the police and justice system in Norway(or anywhere in the world) to protect the public.This crime has happened once and can happen again.
What will the definition of a right wing radical now be?How broad will it be?How many people/groups/parties will now fit under this umbrella?

Will new laws be written in Europe that specifically target right wing extremist such as was done to target Islamic terrorism?

Can you cite any laws that specifically target *Islamic* terror?

-k

Moonlight Graham · July 27, 2011

The far-right, and regular conservatives, and just people in general who are against multiculturalism & immigration from non-white countries are most definitely in Canada obviously. But i thank the stars that whatever social problems stem from multiculturalism and non-white immigration will mostly be seen first in Europe, so Canada will be able to adjust policy or mindset hopefully to learn from their mistakes.

wyly · July 27, 2011

I agree with your assessment on gun issues - I immediately thought that this tragedy could have perhaps been lessened in the event of more prevalent gun ownership. But remember, that the majority of the victims of this massacre occurred on an isolated island. I'm not sure liberalized gun control could have made a difference.

you were never much for research Bob, gun ownership in Norway is common and probably more liberal than in Canada...so despite that it was still the Police that ended the situation not gun toting Norwegians civilians...

but I accept and agree with Breivik's opposition to existing immigration/multiculturalism policies in Europe, particularly with respect to what he views as the Islamisation of Europe and the unholy alliance between Islamism and what he describes as "cultural Marxists".

you accept that Bob? you admitting to being of the same irrationality? as Breivik...

european immigration laws are tighter then they have been in previous centuries, political, economic and religious refugees have been drifting across european borders for centuries...immigration restriction is a modern concept...

dre · July 27, 2011

Im sure if we dug into the personalities of various monsters we could find a little common ground with them... Hitler was a sports fan... Im a sports fan.. :lol:

But this is getting a little creepy. I mean... It doesnt suprise me that a self confessed racist, supremecist and advocate for ethnic cleansing like bob has his lips on this guys arse hole. But its a little suprising to see so many other people piling onto the "Hey... this guys murdered a bunch of innocent people for nothing... But ya know! I can kinda relate to him!" bandwagon.

jacee · July 27, 2011

Im sure if we dug into the personalities of various monsters we could find a little common ground with them... Hitler was a sports fan... Im a sports fan..

But this is getting a little creepy. I mean... It doesnt suprise me that a self confessed racist, supremecist and advocate for ethnic cleansing like bob has his lips on this guys arse hole. But its a little suprising to see so many other people piling onto the "Hey... this guys murdered a bunch of innocent people for nothing... But ya know! I can kinda relate to him!" bandwagon.

Well yeah ... but it was just a bunch of Muslim-loving lefties. /sarcasm

Shwa · July 27, 2011

Im sure if we dug into the personalities of various monsters we could find a little common ground with them... Hitler was a sports fan... Im a sports fan..

But this is getting a little creepy. I mean... It doesnt suprise me that a self confessed racist, supremecist and advocate for ethnic cleansing like bob has his lips on this guys arse hole. But its a little suprising to see so many other people piling onto the "Hey... this guys murdered a bunch of innocent people for nothing... But ya know! I can kinda relate to him!" bandwagon.

Yeah, it is a little creepy. Like, the guy was on the right track - except for the slaughter of all those innocent men, women and children 'n stuff. Other than that, hooray for Breivik for getting his "message" out.

Because most rational people can understand that had he NOT murdered all those innocent men, women and children, no one would have ever bothered with - nor likely heard - his "message."

Heck even Breivik himself understood that.

WTF? :blink: ...

Edited July 27, 2011 by Shwa

kimmy · July 27, 2011

This message has been out for years. Why do you think the anti-immigration parties have risen to prominence in several western European democracies in the past few years? It didn't come from Anders Breivik, and didn't need his horrific actions to be heard.

-k

Shwa · July 27, 2011

This message has been out for years. Why do you think the anti-immigration parties have risen to prominence in several western European democracies in the past few years? It didn't come from Anders Breivik, and didn't need his horrific actions to be heard.

-k

You added a 't'

I said "his message" not "this message."

"this message", you are right, has been out for, well, decades. Anyone can access it do what they want with it.

But "his message" - which has some unique markers - took a slaughter to get exposure. And what exposure it is getting. And that is creepy.

bloodyminded · July 27, 2011

At any rate, before I logged onto MLW a little while ago and started reading the comments, i weas fundamentlaly uneducated.

Recently, I've learned that the "leftist/socialist/Marxist coalition [sic] is responsible for the behaviour of the arch-conservative Islamist radicals.

Today I learned that other facets of right-wing terrorism is also the fault of the lefties.

Quite enlightening.

Shwa · July 27, 2011

At any rate, before I logged onto MLW a little while ago and started reading the comments, i weas fundamentlaly uneducated.

Recently, I've learned that the "leftist/socialist/Marxist coalition [sic] is responsible for the behaviour of the arch-conservative Islamist radicals.

Today I learned that other facets of right-wing terrorism is also the fault of the lefties.

Quite enlightening.

Except it isn't "right-wing terrorism," it is something else: lunacy, craziness, an aberration of otherwise reasonable people ... but it is still the fault of the lefties.

bloodyminded · July 27, 2011

I agree with your assessment on gun issues - I immediately thought that this tragedy could have perhaps been lessened in the event of more prevalent gun ownership. But remember, that the majority of the victims of this massacre occurred on an isolated island. I'm not sure liberalized gun control could have made a difference.

As far as him being a nutcase, well, there is no question there is something deeply wrong with a man who can do something so horrific. That doesn't take away from the validity of his politics. Keep in mind that he is not particularly original, the positions he advances in his manifesto (about half of which was not written by him), are not new. I would not compare him to Bernardo, although he perhaps has some similarities to Lepine - in the sense that he self-radicalized and made himself into a monster. Lastly, I do not accept Lepine's anti-feminist narrative, but I accept and agree with Breivik's opposition to existing immigration/multiculturalism policies in Europe, particularly with respect to what he views as the Islamisation of Europe and the unholy alliance between Islamism and what he describes as "cultural Marxists".

But there's no way in hell you've read the entire Manifesto.

just because he's a reactionary obssessed with the "left" doesn't mean you should automatically sympathize with his politics. The lunacy could well be liberally mixed in with the political "theory" all the way through.

bloodyminded · July 27, 2011

Except it isn't "right-wing terrorism," it is something else: lunacy, craziness, an aberration of otherwise reasonable people ... but it is still the fault of the lefties.

True, I have no objection to looking at these things with a bit of a jaundiced eye cast on the usual parameters ("right" "left" and so on). PErhaps they are of--to put it generously--limited utility.

Edited July 27, 2011 by bloodyminded

Bob · July 27, 2011

But there's no way in hell you've read the entire Manifesto.

just because he's a reactionary obssessed with the "left" doesn't mean you should automatically sympathize with his politics. The lunacy could well be liberally mixed in with the political "theory" all the way through.

I've stated specifically that I've only read through parts of the manifesto. The political elements that I've come across in the manifesto, specifically the first hundred-ish pages, I agree with.

bloodyminded · July 27, 2011

I've stated specifically that I've only read through parts of the manifesto. The political elements that I've come across in the manifesto, specifically the first hundred-ish pages, I agree with.

You mean his bigoted, ill-educated and ill-informed cowardice?

I like the part where he evinces such outraged sympathy for the Serbian war criminals, who are actually "heroes." That's good stuff. Or his demand that "cultural multiculturalists and Marxists" should be executed. Who can't get behind that stuff?

Edited July 27, 2011 by bloodyminded