Oceans in distress foreshadow mass extinction

[Sir Bandelot]

Haiti was a basket case before the quake. It is still a basket case after the quake. Haiti is a example of why a modern industrial economy is an essential defence when it comes to dealing with natural disasters.

Yet your claims of the 'gift of modern transportation' could not save them. It must be difficult to deliver food and aid to a disaster zone, because, it's a disaster zone.

Not move the people out, but easier to move food in? Maybe we can send the Chinese food that floats

[TimG]

Yet your claims of the 'gift of modern transportation' could not save them. It must be difficult to deliver food and aid to a disaster zone, because, it's a disaster zone.

Haitians got food a hellavu a lot more food than they would have gotten without transportation. You are really reaching if you think the Haiti example refutes anything I said.

[Sir Bandelot]

Haitians got food a hellavu a lot more food than they would have gotten without transportation. You are really reaching if you think the Haiti example refutes anything I said.

Nonsense! You need to brush up on your news and history.

[TimG]

Nonsense! You need to brush up on your news and history.

I would say you need to read more on what actually happened instead of relying on brain dead headlines. Food got into Haiti. There were issues - largely due to fact that Haiti is a corrupt and disfunctional society but food got in. And even if I accept your claim that does not change the fact that what I said is still true and that Haiti is an exception. Edited June 22, 2011 by TimG

[Sir Bandelot]

I would say you need to read more on what actually happened instead of relying on brain dead headlines. Food got into Haiti. There were issues - largely due to fact that Haiti is a corrupt and disfunctional society but food got in. And even if I accept your claim that does not change the fact that what I said is still true and that Haiti is an exception.

Food got to the airport warehouse, but could not be delivered to the disaster zone. This is not a "brain dead headline". The brain dead headlines cheerfully reported that everything was going great. Like what you say.

Links for the ill-advised-

Ruined Ports Hindering Delivery of Relief

Damage to Infrastructure

Link

Edited June 22, 2011 by Sir Bandelot

[Sir Bandelot]

And even if I accept your claim that does not change the fact that what I said is still true and that Haiti is an exception.

No, it's not true. You claimed that people do not need to be evacuated, thanks to the 'blessing of modern transportation'. The logistics problem of delivering aid into a disaster area is considerable when shipping ports and airport runaways are destroyed. Let alone the human factor, the politicization of collecting charity and delivering aid as we have today. Very similar problems occurred in Katrina. Your claim that it should be easy and that people do not need to be relocated, is patently false.

[GostHacked]

No, it's not true. You claimed that people do not need to be evacuated, thanks to the 'blessing of modern transportation'. The logistics problem of delivering aid into a disaster area is considerable when shipping ports and airport runaways are destroyed.

True, makes it close to impossible to properly deliver goods.

Let alone the human factor, the politicization of collecting charity and delivering aid as we have today. Very similar problems occurred in Katrina. Your claim that it should be easy and that people do not need to be relocated, is patently false.

Another good point, Bush was saying don't send food, blankets, ect ect .. just send money. But I have some food to spare, and some blankets to spare .. and they wont cost anyone anything. ... Just send money. But money is not what they need, they need the hard goods like food and blankets. ... we will take care of that .. send money.

The aid could have gone a lot farther if it was the real goods instead of money.

But is this more fear mongering from the climate change crowd and the CO2 crowd? They did not scare enough with the climate change bit?

[Michael Hardner]

The aid could have gone a lot farther if it was the real goods instead of money.

Don't you see the logistical problems in having someone come to your house, get the blanket, somehow get it to Haiti ?

[GostHacked]

Don't you see the logistical problems in having someone come to your house, get the blanket, somehow get it to Haiti ?

Not a huge problem. I deal with logistics in my job moving groceries. It really is not that hard if you organize it properly. You are going to have the same logistics problem with buying a lot of items at the same time. Depends on where you are buying the items from.

[TimG]

The logistics problem of delivering aid into a disaster area is considerable when shipping ports and airport runaways are destroyed.

You are making no sense. Logistics problems are temporary and apply to moving people out as easily as moving food in. The fact that there has been no mass migration from Haiti is testiment to this. Lastly, without fossil fuels there would have been mass starvation - period. I can't believe you are so ignorant to deny the fact that fossil fuels are an essential part of an disaster relief strategy. People that think to demonize fossil fuels are deluded buffoons who dont realize how damn good things are today.

[Pliny]

Food got to the airport warehouse, but could not be delivered to the disaster zone. This is not a "brain dead headline". The brain dead headlines cheerfully reported that everything was going great. Like what you say.

Links for the ill-advised-

Ruined Ports Hindering Delivery of Relief

Damage to Infrastructure

Link

Those are the brain dead headlines.

The fact Haiti has always been a backward, politically exploited and corrupt place is the real headline.

Look to Japan and see the headlines there. Notice the absence of looting, raping and pillaging and the orderly re-establishment of the society. See any difference with Haiti?

[Sir Bandelot]

Those are the brain dead headlines.

The fact Haiti has always been a backward, politically exploited and corrupt place is the real headline.

Look to Japan and see the headlines there. Notice the absence of looting, raping and pillaging and the orderly re-establishment of the society. See any difference with Haiti?

Sorry but that is not what we were actually talking about.

[Pliny]

You are making no sense. Logistics problems are temporary and apply to moving people out as easily as moving food in. The fact that there has been no mass migration from Haiti is testiment to this. Lastly, without fossil fuels there would have been mass starvation - period. I can't believe you are so ignorant to deny the fact that fossil fuels are an essential part of an disaster relief strategy. People that think to demonize fossil fuels are deluded buffoons who dont realize how damn good things are today.

We definitely have to find alternatives to fossil fuels if only for the reason they are non-renewable resources.

Climate change mongers want to end the use of fossil fuels and end them right now with some idiotic idea that a little sacrifice of social niceties is all that is necessary to secure our future.

[Pliny]

Sorry but that is not what we were actually talking about.

Brain dead headlines isn't the topic?

[Sir Bandelot]

I can't believe you are so ignorant to deny the fact that fossil fuels are an essential part of an disaster relief strategy. People that think to demonize fossil fuels are deluded buffoons who dont realize how damn good things are today.

I did not deny that specifically, but I denied your claim that people do not need to moved out in a disaster, because its so easy to move the aid in. Especially in a zone where roads ports and runways are destroyed. But I really dislike repeating myself to people who can only invoke personal insults. So, to the devil with you!

[eyeball]

Haiti was a basket case before the quake. It is still a basket case after the quake. Haiti is a example of why a modern industrial economy is an essential defence when it comes to dealing with natural disasters. The contrast between Japan and Haiti could not be more stark.

Haiti is an example of a deficit of another kind that exists in the world. In addition to all the other effects and forces buffeting us in our descent into The Bottleneck we have the inter-generational deficit of goodwill that our ancestors so thoughtfully bestowed on us. The world is littered with this and even worse post-colonial wreckage.

You figure we can just hand off that deficit the way it was handed off to us?

I don't know maybe I just have to be more Cornucopian in my thinking. I'm trying to imagine some sort of economic singularity in the future not unlike the technological one - a point at which our total knowledge of everything economic will yield accelerating endless growth and prosperity for all, forever.

Take this idea of there being plenty of other planets. Perhaps we can finance our way out of or through The Bottleneck by borrowing against the wealth we're sure to find on the Moon, Mars and in the Asteroid Belt. Not a pie in the sky investment scheme but a real pie in the sky investment plan.

Whattya think? Do you think people would buy it?

[Sir Bandelot]

Brain dead headlines isn't the topic?

Sigh

[Oleg Bach]

Humans are idiots. Destroying the planet isn't much affecting me now, so why care, right?

BP oil said it's gone and all is clean....mean while it lays on the bottom of the ocean killing everything it touches. We are told that "bacteria" will do their job....we are lied to so some can continue to grow richer and richer.....mass extinction will come because those that have the power to curb it don't give a damn. Eat drink and be merry is the motto.

[WIP]

So, you can deny that an error was made - as you appear to be doing - in order to serve the greater truth, I suppose. I like pointing out mistakes, it makes me more real than somebody who tries to deny them.

You are pointing out nothing, except that your positioning as moderate and bipartisan is disingenuous! You still haven't provided an example of the errors you claim to justify maintaining a cautious middle-of-the-road position on climate change; you just tossed it out as a truism. I could mention that you did the same thing claiming that there are no harms from population growth, even though the U.N. report that world population will top out at 9 billion, and then decline, has been discredited by more recent information on rising birth rates in some nations, and rapidly declining water and arable land.

The calls for caution and moderation to scientists reporting on climate change are based on two factors: a. There is an extremely well funded lobby in the business of denying climate change, or creating confusion among the public. and

b. some self-proclaimed moderates who voice the opinion that we need to be careful about how much bad news we dump on the public, for fear that they will become despondent and fatalistic about the future.

That second reason for sugar-coating the bad news is totally without merit, since the evidence indicates that a large percentage of the population are in denial anyway; and it has less to do with perceived hopelessness as it does to the fear that taking action to save future generations will require great short term sacrifice....and it will, in my opinion, because our present globalized growth-dependent capitalist way of life cannot be carried on in a sustainable way because of the limits on human activity imposed by the natural limits of our biosphere.

We are already bumping up against those limits now, and the choices of this generation will determine the outcomes for those following after us.

[WIP]

This will be the largest threat to the current way of modern civilized society, as I see it. Record floods in China, USA Canada, other environmental catastrophes like quakes, volcanoes ect. All that puts a strain on our food supply , which to some is stretched to the point of breaking real soon.

Flooding already has delayed many crops from being planted, if they are planted at all. In China for example, the drought was followed by huge flooding. 2 million Chinese have already been displaced by the drought and concurrent flooding of those area.

I hate to break more bad news, but the flooding situation in China is getting even worse! A couple of days ago, a new report on the flooded areas says that over 5 million people have been forced out of their homes by flooding. The areas being flooded were having record droughts up until a few weeks ago, and this is in a region that China depends heavily on for food production.

A recent FAO Report on global food production has been "cautiously optimistic" as they say, for this year. They were expecting a slight improvement and stabilization of world grain prices; but, right in the report it states that their projections are based on the assumption of "relatively normal weather" -- situations like the one in China and many other major food producing regions throw the monkey wrench into plans to get things back to normal. And this is the most obvious indication that global warming is already becoming a factor in our lives.

[WIP]

Haiti was a basket case before the quake. It is still a basket case after the quake. Haiti is a example of why a modern industrial economy is an essential defence when it comes to dealing with natural disasters. The contrast between Japan and Haiti could not be more stark.

Haiti is a basket case because of globalization and the neoliberal economics that you celebrate! Before Clinton became U.S. President, Haiti was self-sufficient in food production,except for the occasional hurricane or other natural disaster. When Clinton made arrangements for Jean Bertrand Aristide to return as President of Haiti after a military coup overthrew his government, the one concession that Clinton demanded of Aristide, was that he accept the so called free market reforms of the military government that removed tariffs on cheap imported rice and other foods. Small farms crashed...just like in Mexico and other places discovering the wonders of free trade...and newly landless and unemployed Haitian farmers flooded the cities....just like Mexico...and were soon looking for opportunities to emigrate in search of places where they could live and work....sounds like Mexico again!

So, Haiti is a basket case because of the economic system that will likely collapse a few years from now. Interesting to note that Aristide was barred from running for president in the last Haitian elections. To keep international aid flowing, Haitians had to accept a rigged election with a handpicked candidate for leader....some democracy! Why do they even bother with this charade any more?

[Michael Hardner]

You are pointing out nothing, except that your positioning as moderate and bipartisan is disingenuous! You still haven't provided an example of the errors you claim to justify maintaining a cautious middle-of-the-road position on climate change; you just tossed it out as a truism.

I didn't say that a middle-of-the-road position should be maintained, I don't think. My point is that we need to discuss these things openly and not be afraid to show that some mistakes are made, that's all.

I could mention that you did the same thing claiming that there are no harms from population growth, even though the U.N. report that world population will top out at 9 billion, and then decline, has been discredited by more recent information on rising birth rates in some nations, and rapidly declining water and arable land.

That sounds like you're extending my position a little. I think I talked about birth rate topping out, yes, but that's something different. Birth control will likely be more widely adopted moving forward, and that will fix some problems.

The calls for caution and moderation to scientists reporting on climate change are based on two factors: a. There is an extremely well funded lobby in the business of denying climate change, or creating confusion among the public. and

b. some self-proclaimed moderates who voice the opinion that we need to be careful about how much bad news we dump on the public, for fear that they will become despondent and fatalistic about the future.

Do lobbyists lie all the time ? If not, can I speak the truth if they speak it or should I lie when they're truthing ?

I think the public needs to be told the truth, including mistakes by scientists. But information shouldn't be distorted either.

That second reason for sugar-coating the bad news is totally without merit, since the evidence indicates that a large percentage of the population are in denial anyway; and it has less to do with perceived hopelessness as it does to the fear that taking action to save future generations will require great short term sacrifice....and it will, in my opinion, because our present globalized growth-dependent capitalist way of life cannot be carried on in a sustainable way because of the limits on human activity imposed by the natural limits of our biosphere.

Should we lie to them, since they're already in denial, or should we tell it like at is when the news is (rarely) good ? Using the term 'sugar-coating' implies to me that you want the truth out, but if that's the case then good news has to be allowed out too when it's there.

We are already bumping up against those limits now, and the choices of this generation will determine the outcomes for those following after us.

There is good reason for alarm, and to speak the truth, but not to lapse into pessimism and over-selling the crisis. And yes, that happens.

[WIP]

I didn't say that a middle-of-the-road position should be maintained, I don't think. My point is that we need to discuss these things openly and not be afraid to show that some mistakes are made, that's all.

That sounds like you're extending my position a little. I think I talked about birth rate topping out, yes, but that's something different. Birth control will likely be more widely adopted moving forward, and that will fix some problems.

Do lobbyists lie all the time ? If not, can I speak the truth if they speak it or should I lie when they're truthing ?

I think the public needs to be told the truth, including mistakes by scientists. But information shouldn't be distorted either.

Should we lie to them, since they're already in denial, or should we tell it like at is when the news is (rarely) good ? Using the term 'sugar-coating' implies to me that you want the truth out, but if that's the case then good news has to be allowed out too when it's there.

There is good reason for alarm, and to speak the truth, but not to lapse into pessimism and over-selling the crisis. And yes, that happens.

I want some examples of lies, before I take a statement that climatologists might be lying about evidence for global warming seriously! Since there have been so many examples of: CO2 projections, ocean acidification, sea ice loss and permafrost decline, that have turned out worse than originally projected in climate models -- the evidence should point in the opposite direction -- that the threats have been dangerously underestimated.

[TimG]

Haiti is a basket case because of globalization and the neoliberal economics that you celebrate!

Sorry. The facts do not support your assertion. The problem with Haiti has always been a corrupt and incompetent government, a disfunctional court system and an incoherent land registry. The market reforms that you decry were brought in because the country was a basket case and needed to change. Unfortunately, simply removing a few tariffs was not enough to over come the structural and cultural problems.

[Sir Bandelot]

Haiti is a basket case because of globalization and the neoliberal economics that you celebrate! Before Clinton became U.S. President, Haiti was self-sufficient in food production,except for the occasional hurricane or other natural disaster. When Clinton made arrangements for Jean Bertrand Aristide to return as President of Haiti after a military coup overthrew his government, the one concession that Clinton demanded of Aristide, was that he accept the so called free market reforms of the military government that removed tariffs on cheap imported rice and other foods. Small farms crashed...just like in Mexico and other places discovering the wonders of free trade...and newly landless and unemployed Haitian farmers flooded the cities....just like Mexico...and were soon looking for opportunities to emigrate in search of places where they could live and work....sounds like Mexico again!

So, Haiti is a basket case because of the economic system that will likely collapse a few years from now. Interesting to note that Aristide was barred from running for president in the last Haitian elections. To keep international aid flowing, Haitians had to accept a rigged election with a handpicked candidate for leader....some democracy! Why do they even bother with this charade any more?

I knew all that already, but didn't want to derail your thread any more than has already been done.