BC Referendum on HST

[Wilber]

Of course you're fear mongering. I could point out that the PST could be made much worse too and use that as an argument to vote No to extinguishment. Your claim holds no utility whatsoever.

I'm not sure a pure VAT exists anywhere. But if you compare the rules surrounding GST/HST and the PST, which do you suppose is more complex?

I'm being a devils advocate as much as anything. I'm sceptical of things I hear from both side.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Wilber

[Pliny]

Well, going by the polls it seems that BC is going to dump the HST --

I don't think so but we'll see.

[eyeball]

And how much more tax will you get to pay if the Province has to return 1.6 billion dollars?

Do the sensible thing. Keep the tax, toss out the Liberals. Believe me, it's what the NDP is secretly praying for.

Put that on the ballot and you've got a deal.

[eyeball]

Weird and stupid rules can be applied to any tax. You can clean up the weird and stupid rules without getting rid of the tax. Who's to say the HST rules won't get weirder and stupider as time goes by.

Especially given the weird way the stupid tax was dumped on us. I mean, what was our first clue?

[wolfd]

If it's not a tax shift, why is it costing me more?

My point exactly. It is a tax shift no matter what slant they put on it.

[Pliny]

If it's not a tax shift, why is it costing me more?

My point exactly. It is a tax shift no matter what slant they put on it.

If it is just a tax shift why do you feel it is costing you more? No more taxes are coming out of the economy in the case of a tax shift. Corporations have to get their revenues from the sale of their products to you and pay their taxes out of those revenues from you so it isn't really costing you more -nor is it a "real" tax shift. It is only an apparent tax shift.

With the tax rebates the lower income households are further ahead so what's the problem?

[Wilber]

If it is just a tax shift why do you feel it is costing you more? No more taxes are coming out of the economy in the case of a tax shift. Corporations have to get their revenues from the sale of their products to you and pay their taxes out of those revenues from you so it isn't really costing you more -nor is it a "real" tax shift. It is only an apparent tax shift.

With the tax rebates the lower income households are further ahead so what's the problem?

This argument works on the simplistic premise that all the products produced in BC are sold in BC which is clearly not so. I don't think it is a bad thing that our exporting industries are more competitive in their export markets but the HST does this by shifting the burden to BC consumers.

One thing is for certain, if the HST remains, I will not be making any large discretionary purchases until it drops to 10% in 2014.

[msj]

One thing is for certain, if the HST remains, I will not be making any large discretionary purchases until it drops to 10% in 2014.

Then I guess you will be voting "no" in the referendum so you can wait.

After all, any large discretionary items you purchase, whether now or back in the days of GST + PST, would have cost you at least 12% (automobiles could have cost you 15% under the old GST/PST depending on the price of the car - a "luxury" tax under the PST rules).

Remember, "yes" = PST + GST = 12% and "no" = HST = 10%.

[Wilber]

After all, any large discretionary items you purchase, whether now or back in the days of GST + PST, would have cost you at least 12% (automobiles could have cost you 15% under the old GST/PST depending on the price of the car - a "luxury" tax under the PST rules).

Not likely a luxury tax on vehicles will ever effect me and the HST boosted the sales tax on private sales of used cars from 7% to 12%.

I will be saving the money to cover all the things subject to PST under the HST which were not before.

Remember, "yes" = PST + GST = 12% and "no" = HST = 10%.

Maybe, but you have to believe they will be re-elected and that they will not change the legislation if they are.

Clark has been making noises about calling a fall election. We have fixed election dates in this province legislated by a government in which Clark was a minister. If they don't abide by that legislation, why should I believe they will their HST legislation?

[The_Squid]

I received my ballot in the mail. I will be voting to extinguish the HST for one simple reason. My friend on disability can't afford it. The HST credit cheques are not enough for a person on disability. PST was never added to medically necessary equipment and services.

Submission to the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services Regarding the Impact of HST

The tax would probably be to my benefit.... but I think we need to ensure the most vulnerable in society are looked after first.

Edited July 7, 2011 by The_Squid

[msj]

Submission to the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services Regarding the Impact of HST

The tax would probably be to my benefit.... but I think we need to ensure the most vulnerable in society are looked after first.

Although that link has some very good points I think people should keep in mind that many items already are exempt/zero rated (meaning no HST is charged).

On top of that, the disabled already get tax credits saving them thousands of dollars per year in income tax.

I think the HST is fairly balanced with respect to the "most vulnerable in society."

Oh, and if you don't want to pay HST on vitamins may I suggest you buy basic groceries like leafy greens, fruits, vegetables, etc all of which are better for you and not a cent of HST is charged.

[The_Squid]

...keep in mind that many items already are exempt/zero rated (meaning no HST is charged).

Not nearly enough items obviously...

On top of that, the disabled already get tax credits saving them thousands of dollars per year in income tax.

LOL People getting diability don't pay income tax!!

I think the HST is fairly balanced with respect to the "most vulnerable in society."

Hardly... Just ask the MS Society...

Oh, and if you don't want to pay HST on vitamins may I suggest you buy basic groceries like leafy greens, fruits, vegetables, etc all of which are better for you and not a cent of HST is charged.

Thanks for the nutrition lesson.

[msj]

Not nearly enough items obviously...

It never is enough!

LOL People getting diability don't pay income tax!!

Some do. You'd be surprised.

But, of course, since a person on disability isn't going to pay income tax on their first $16-17,000 of earnings, many don't pay income tax.

Then there is the RDSP's which allows one to save income tax through that method.

The disabled get a lot of breaks and all we hear from them is more, more, more. But, it's never enough.

Hardly... Just ask the MS Society...

As I have already state: it's never enough.

I'd bet that the government could give the MS Society $100 million each year and index it for inflation and they would still cry it's never enough.

Thanks for the nutrition lesson.

You're welcome, but, really, it's just common sense.

Edited July 7, 2011 by msj

[The_Squid]

The disabled get a lot of breaks and all we hear from them is more, more, more. But, it's never enough.

She gets $12k per year and can't afford to pay another dime on anything. The HST hurts her ability to afford food, medical equipment, medical services and shelter.

Where does one cut back to afford more taxes when making $12k per year?

Yes, those disabled folks certainly are coddled, aren't they?

[Oleg Bach]

What's the point of a referendum or vote on a specific way or style of taxing? You can get rid of the HST - and it will cleverly be replaced with a H O S L X - tax....I just made it up but it should fly long enough to generate a billion for federal coffers.

[msj]

She gets $12k per year and can't afford to pay another dime on anything. The HST hurts her ability to afford food, medical equipment, medical services and shelter.

Where does one cut back to afford more taxes when making $12k per year?

Yes, those disabled folks certainly are coddled, aren't they?

That's too bad. It really is.

But there is more to tax policy than one person.

Many people in our society are already getting huge breaks.

As for the BC HST tax credit - she is getting a net increase of $155 to help cover HST (that is $230 from BC minus the $75 for the old PST tax credit).

That's on top of the $253 from the feds for their portion of the HST.

That's on top of the $115 from BC for the carbon tax credit.

$155 divided by 7% = $2,214.

Is your friend spending more than $2,214 (18% of her income) each year on items that are only taxed at the BC HST rate of 7% that were not taxed at the previous PST rate of 7%?

I doubt it.

[The_Squid]

That's too bad. It really is.

But there is more to tax policy than one person.

My criteria are different than yours. My criteria includes whether the most vulnerable among us benefit from this or not? They don't, hence my vote against the HST.

As for the BC HST tax credit - she is getting a net increase of $155 to help cover HST (that is $230 from BC minus the $75 for the old PST tax credit).

That's on top of the $253 from the feds for their portion of the HST.

That's on top of the $115 from BC for the carbon tax credit.

LOL you're towing that government line really well. The only thing that needs to be calculated is how much more is the hst credit than what she used to receive. Adding all the "credits" together makes no difference if she used to get those anyway.

There are many examples of medical services and items that are now taxed where they weren't before.

Simple math has led me to my decision.

[msj]

LOL you're towing that government line really well. The only thing that needs to be calculated is how much more is the hst credit than what she used to receive. Adding all the "credits" together makes no difference if she used to get those anyway.

There are many examples of medical services and items that are now taxed where they weren't before.

Simple math has led me to my decision.

Then you're doing your math wrong.

The difference is this: Under the PST she would have gotten a PST credit for $75.

Under the HST she now gets $230.

The difference between the two equals $155.

That means one would have to spend more than $2,214 on goods/services that are now taxed at 12% under the HST, and were taxed previously at only 5% GST, in order to be less well off under the HST.

Given that most people are clueless as to what they pay HST on and what they used to pay PST on I have no doubt that she is getting a net benefit from this each year.

So, yeah, go ahead and vote for PST + GST because, in reality, it will hurt your friend.

And all because you can't comprehend simple math.

[The_Squid]

Then you're doing your math wrong.

The difference is this: Under the PST she would have gotten a PST credit for $75.

Under the HST she now gets $230.

The difference between the two equals $155.

That means one would have to spend more than $2,214 on goods/services that are now taxed at 12% under the HST, and were taxed previously at only 5% GST, in order to be less well off under the HST.

Given that most people are clueless as to what they pay HST on and what they used to pay PST on I have no doubt that she is getting a net benefit from this each year.

So, yeah, go ahead and vote for PST + GST because, in reality, it will hurt your friend.

And all because you can't comprehend simple math.

Actually, we sat down together and figured it out.... like I said... simple math. Telephone bills, medical expenses, prepared meals, etc, etc.... It comes to more than her increased rebate.

And this is not taking in to account irregular expenses like car repairs or home repairs that pop up.

It wasn't a lot more, but someone on disability can't afford any extra expenses.

[msj]

Actually, we sat down together and figured it out.... like I said... simple math. Telephone bills, medical expenses, prepared meals, etc, etc.... It comes to more than her increased rebate.

And this is not taking in to account irregular expenses like car repairs or home repairs that pop up.

It wasn't a lot more, but someone on disability can't afford any extra expenses.

Car repairs? Regular car repairs already had the PST on the parts and on most labour.

Home repairs? Really?

If you're buying the parts for her at the Home Depot then you would have paid PST on them anyway.

Sure, if you hire a handyman to do the job the service is costing 7% more. How often does that happen? How often is it for cash and no GST/HST is being paid anyway?

Medical expenses? Sure, vitamins and RMT and the like charge HST but many medical expenses are still exempt.

Prepared meals - fair enough, that's where she is really feeling it.

And if the HST goes down to 10% I think she would definitely be better off under the HST.

[Pliny]

Actually, we sat down together and figured it out.... like I said... simple math. Telephone bills, medical expenses, prepared meals, etc, etc.... It comes to more than her increased rebate.

And this is not taking in to account irregular expenses like car repairs or home repairs that pop up.

It wasn't a lot more, but someone on disability can't afford any extra expenses.

I stand with msj on this, Squid. Allowing the economy to work more efficently means more government revenues. The PST is costing the most vulnerable in reduced economic efficiency.

Besides that, I think you are adding up the numbers wrong and msj has them right - there will be a net benefit for your friend.

[dre]

Then I guess you will be voting "no" in the referendum so you can wait.

After all, any large discretionary items you purchase, whether now or back in the days of GST + PST, would have cost you at least 12% (automobiles could have cost you 15% under the old GST/PST depending on the price of the car - a "luxury" tax under the PST rules).

Remember, "yes" = PST + GST = 12% and "no" = HST = 10%.

One thing that might impact my vote, is how much I trust them to keep their promise to lower the rate to 10%. Is that set in stone? Because I wouldnt trust any of these people with a pinch of coon shit. When did they announce this reduction to 10%? Did people know about it before the recall? Or is it just a ploy to win this referendum?

Because if its possible for them to not keep that promise, they wont keep it.

[TimG]

When did they announce this reduction to 10%? Did people know about it before the recall? Or is it just a ploy to win this referendum?

Are you even paying attention? Clark announced that she would drop the rate AND raise corporare taxes to pay for it.

And yes, it is an attempt to make the HST more palatable to the electorate. What's wrong with that?

Oh, BTW, the government could have legally ignored the petition but they did not. So they won't be renaging on the promise to cut the tax. If you need to be a cynic then watch what happens if the HST loses - you will likely see many changes which make it more like the HST than the old PST.

[dre]

Are you even paying attention? Clark announced that she would drop the rate AND raise corporare taxes to pay for it.

And yes, it is an attempt to make the HST more palatable to the electorate. What's wrong with that?

Oh, BTW, the government could have legally ignored the petition but they did not. So they won't be renaging on the promise to cut the tax. If you need to be a cynic then watch what happens if the HST loses - you will likely see many changes which make it more like the HST than the old PST.

Im just pointing out that all any voter in the referendum can be sure of is 12% pst+gst, and 12% hst.

[TimG]

Im just pointing out that all any voter in the referendum can be sure of is 12% pst+gst, and 12% hst.

Nonsense. You are simply making crap up to justify your position.