kimmy Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Doesn't make a difference, but well, YOU are the one making assumptions, not I. You objected to the premise that he was biking around looking for a massage and suggested he may have gone straight there. Now you don't think it makes a difference. hmm. But if he was heading straight there... doesn't that suggest he had some knowledge of the place? If not prior visits, then at least by reputation? That sure doesn't help the "I had no idea what kind of place it was" defense, does it. I think you'd be better off sticking with the premise that he was biking around looking for a massage, and picked the wrong place by accident. Here you. He was told about the place, and never went back. The end. Yes, I gathered. I think it's funny that you're offering that as some sort of evidence in support of him. Like, what else could he have done? Based on the FACTS that are know, including the police notes, I have no reason to believe otherwise. If you or anyone has FACTS that's say otherwise, present them. "He must have known", "he should have known" and "it's in Chinatown" do not qualify as relevant facts. It's called "The Velvet Touch"? It was open after 9pm? The red-light-green-light warning system? Even the most naive guy should have had alarm bells going off by this point. And given Layton's familiarity with civic issues and sex-trade issues at the time, he certainly *wasn't* the most naive guy. Even if he had no knowledge of this specific establishment, he has to have been aware of the prevalence of that sort of activity in that area of town at that time. This is a difference of opinion. Jack says he had no idea what kind of place he was at. You believe him. I don't find it remotely credible. We'll have to disagree. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Thanks for confirming that the two cops were utterly incompetant in not arresting Layton on the spot. After all, they knew that he knew, but nothing of that appeared in their notes. What would they have arrested him for? They had no evidence that he'd received sexual services. Being too naive to know you've walked into a brothel isn't a crime. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 I'm deferring judgment on it, and my guess (pure guess, yes) is that neither party was involved. But if one were, I think the Liberals the more likely culprit. "neither" is a strong possibility as well. Warren Kinsella wrote that he thinks a political party was involved, and he's been one of those war-room guys so his opinion is pretty relevant. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 You objected to the premise that he was biking around looking for a massage and suggested he may have gone straight there. Now you don't think it makes a difference. hmm. I was making fun of you. Sorry, next time, I'll notify you in advance. This is a difference of opinion. Jack says he had no idea what kind of place he was at. You believe him. I don't find it remotely credible. We'll have to disagree. -k No, it's not a difference of opinion. It's you and others making assumptions and innuendos and me and others sticking to the KNOWN REPORTED FACTS. As I said before, provide evidence. You know, the kind of things that journalists who sit on this non-story for two years didn't find. Becuase if they had found it, we would know by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNG Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 I was making fun of you. Sorry, next time, I'll notify you in advance. No, it's not a difference of opinion. It's you and others making assumptions and innuendos and me and others sticking to the KNOWN REPORTED FACTS. As I said before, provide evidence. You know, the kind of things that journalists who sit on this non-story for two years didn't find. Becuase if they had found it, we would know by now. There aren't sufficient facts to justify either position. Of the known facts, I am highly suspicious about his claim of naivety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 What would they have arrested him for? They had no evidence that he'd received sexual services. Being too naive to know you've walked into a brothel isn't a crime. -k Sooo, you admit he didn't know. (and yes, I'm making fun of you) I have said all long that the facts as known indicate he wasn't careful enough (naive is word I can go with). And that's it. Nothing else to see folks, end of story. Good enough for a few cartoons, now let's go back to real issue and serious stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 There aren't sufficient facts to justify either position. Of the known facts, I am highly suspicious about his claim of naivety. There are sufficient facts until something other than innuendos and assumptions is brought forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Kimmy, according to Olivia, Jack had an appointment at this establishment. It was also a licensed massage clinic. So he did have prior knowledge of the place, by their own admission. However, any suggestion that it was a Triad whorehouse are nothing more than speculation after the fact because it was raided by the police. You seem to be suggesting that he should have known better, but I think that's predicated on the assumption that this place was well-known for sexual services. That being the case, you're just dressing up the same accusations others have made: Jack Layton went there looking for a rub-and-tug and probably got it. You're just putting it in a nicer package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 I was making fun of you. Sorry, next time, I'll notify you in advance. I think you ended up making fun of your hero, not me. So, do you think he was biking around at 9pm looking for a massage, or do you think he was headed straight for The Velvet Touch? What's your hunch on that? No, it's not a difference of opinion. It's you and others making assumptions and innuendos and me and others sticking to the KNOWN REPORTED FACTS. The known reported facts make it clear that only a very naive person would have gone into "The Velvet Touch" without realizing what kind of establishment it was. The difference of opinion is knowing whether to believe Jack Layton is really that naive. The known facts about Jack Layton make it difficult for me to believe he is that naive. As I said before, provide evidence. You know, the kind of things that journalists who sit on this non-story for two years didn't find. Becuase if they had found it, we would know by now. You're clinging to the fact that he was not charged with anything as a defense of his conduct. But what casts doubt on him is the fact that he was there at all. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 You're clinging to the fact that he was not charged with anything as a defense of his conduct. But what casts doubt on him is the fact that he was there at all. -k "Guilty until proven innocent!" The new conservative slogan for Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 It's called "The Velvet Touch"? Since this is the second time you're bringing up the name, as if that should have been a dead-give-away, I did a Google for Velvet Touch, wondering if I'd see a list of exotic establishments. Here are the first five results/businesses: Velvet Touch Velvet Touch Kennel, Teacup Poodle Puppies For Sale, Breeder Of Teacup Poodles, Teacup Yorkies, Toy Poodles, Tiny Teacup Puppy in Louisiana. Teacup Yorkies - Teacup Poodle Description - Please Tour our Kennel teacuppoodles.com/ - Cached - Similar The Velvet Touch - Home Page Welcome to the Velvet Touch website. Since 2000, we have been servicing residential and interior decorator clients throughout the Tri-State area. ... www.tvtmovers.com/ - Cached - Similar Velvet Touch Academy of Cosmetology Velvet Touch is conveniently located at 5820 E. Franklin Road in the city of Nampa, Idaho. We are right off the freeway (Garrity Exit) at the intersection ... www.velvettouchacademy.com/ - Cached - Similar Velvet Touch Wheel Services Inc. Velvet Touch Wheel Services, Inc. began in 1997, out of the bed of one pick-up truck. The idea was to try and create an industry that had previously been ... www.repairmywheels.com/home.htm - Cached - Similar The Velvet Touch Hair Salon The Velvet Touch has been the benchmark of salons in Tolland County for over 40 years. Our stylists are on the cutting edge of style and fashion, ready to ... www.vthairsalon.com/ - Cached - Similar Puppies, and wheels, and Cosmetology ..... oh my! It was open after 9pm? Not being in the know myself, could you please inform me as to the acceptable hours for a massage? The red-light-green-light warning system? Even the most naive guy should have had alarm bells going off by this point. So you think he staked the joint out for hours first? Looking to see if the sign changed colors? Is that a pre-requisite for a massage in order for one to be savvy rather than naive? And given Layton's familiarity with civic issues and sex-trade issues at the time, he certainly *wasn't* the most naive guy. Even if he had no knowledge of this specific establishment, he has to have been aware of the prevalence of that sort of activity in that area of town at that time. Yes, and as such, he should have been suspicious of every massage parlor in Chinatown. He should have been suspicious of every Chinese masseuse. That's a characteristic to admire, and if one doesn't follow that line of 'logic,' one is obviously either very naive or very sinister. ---------------- Lots of speculation going on in this thread. Perhaps he knew, perhaps he didn't know. No one knows. And that's the bottom line. Now I guess the next speculation to be tossed around is 'who dunnit?' Let the accusations begin! Or I should say, continue. Ahhhh yes. Politics Canadian-style. (That's for a few here who know who they are ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Kimmy, according to Olivia, Jack had an appointment at this establishment. It was also a licensed massage clinic. So he did have prior knowledge of the place, by their own admission. However, any suggestion that it was a Triad whorehouse are nothing more than speculation after the fact because it was raided by the police. You seem to be suggesting that he should have known better, but I think that's predicated on the assumption that this place was well-known for sexual services. That being the case, you're just dressing up the same accusations others have made: Jack Layton went there looking for a rub-and-tug and probably got it. You're just putting it in a nicer package. Leading to an interesting point here. Olivia Chow is of Chinese origin. She is aware of the reputation Chinatown has, and of what may happen in certain seedy places. So it could be argued that she should have warned her husband in advance as to what signs of trouble to look for. On the other hand. I hardly doubt that she would stand by him if he had been there for sexual favours and was now being subjected to this kind of humiliation. What I know of her tells me that she would be more likely to shred him to pieces. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is an assumption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Since this is the second time you're bringing up the name, as if that should have been a dead-give-away, I did a Google for Velvet Touch, wondering if I'd see a list of exotic establishments. Here are the first five results/businesses: Velvet Touch Velvet Touch Kennel, Teacup Poodle Puppies For Sale, Breeder Of Teacup Poodles, Teacup Yorkies, Toy Poodles, Tiny Teacup Puppy in Louisiana. Teacup Yorkies - Teacup Poodle Description - Please Tour our Kennel teacuppoodles.com/ - Cached - Similar The Velvet Touch - Home Page Welcome to the Velvet Touch website. Since 2000, we have been servicing residential and interior decorator clients throughout the Tri-State area. ... www.tvtmovers.com/ - Cached - Similar Velvet Touch Academy of Cosmetology Velvet Touch is conveniently located at 5820 E. Franklin Road in the city of Nampa, Idaho. We are right off the freeway (Garrity Exit) at the intersection ... www.velvettouchacademy.com/ - Cached - Similar Velvet Touch Wheel Services Inc. Velvet Touch Wheel Services, Inc. began in 1997, out of the bed of one pick-up truck. The idea was to try and create an industry that had previously been ... www.repairmywheels.com/home.htm - Cached - Similar The Velvet Touch Hair Salon The Velvet Touch has been the benchmark of salons in Tolland County for over 40 years. Our stylists are on the cutting edge of style and fashion, ready to ... www.vthairsalon.com/ - Cached - Similar Puppies, and wheels, and Cosmetology ..... oh my! Oh, that's good. My chuckle for the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 "Guilty until proven innocent!" The new conservative slogan for Canada. I wouldn't say Kimmy is conservative, just more conservative than you. Which, honestly, is not hard. I'm sure you'll admit that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 I wouldn't say Kimmy is conservative, just more conservative than you. Which, honestly, is not hard. I'm sure you'll admit that. Of course I would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Kimmy, according to Olivia, Jack had an appointment at this establishment. It was also a licensed massage clinic. So he did have prior knowledge of the place, by their own admission. The claim that "The Velvet Touch" was licensed by the city has disappeared from NDP statements about the incident (it's now referred to as "a community clinic"). Has the claim that it was a licensed clinic actually been substantiated, or is Olivia's comment the only evidence for that claim? Now, if Jack *did* have regular appointments at this place, then the claim that he had no idea what kind of operation it was seems to be very, very thin. However, any suggestion that it was a Triad whorehouse are nothing more than speculation after the fact because it was raided by the police. You seem to be suggesting that he should have known better, but I think that's predicated on the assumption that this place was well-known for sexual services. You're the guy who said his girlfriend is a registered massage therapist, right? What hours does she work? Is her place open after 9pm? Do they have a red-light/green-light system? The police said they had their eye on this place from the day it opened. They'd already been raided once. A Toronto city councillor says anybody in society would have known what kind of place it was. But Jack Layton... a guy on city council who was familiar with civic issues and was campaigning against sexual exploitation at the time... didn't even suspect anything? The claim stretches credibility to an absurd degree. That being the case, you're just dressing up the same accusations others have made: Jack Layton went there looking for a rub-and-tug and probably got it. You're just putting it in a nicer package. I am not claiming Jack Layton received that service at all. I am claiming that a real champion of women, as Jack Layton claims to be, would not frequent a place like that at all, period, regardless of what service he was personally receiving. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 It's called "The Velvet Touch"? Now that you mention it kimmy, it seems to me that most therapeutic masseuses and masseurs operate independently with independent facilities, and don't affiliate together in one single operation. For example, my masseuse has one office with her name on the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Now that you mention it kimmy, it seems to me that most therapeutic masseuses and masseurs operate independently with independent facilities, and don't affiliate together in one single operation. For example, my masseuse has one office with her name on the door. Mine works in a spa with many other masseuse therapists who also work out of the same spa. Your claim is silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) I think you ended up making fun of your hero, not me. He is not my hero, not one bit. Actually, his constant grin tends to slightly irritate me. And quite frankly, there is something a bit funny about someone going for a massage and ending up in the middle of raid. But not as funny as the desperate attempts by people who do not like him to make innuendos after baseless assumptions. So, do you think he was biking around at 9pm looking for a massage, or do you think he was headed straight for The Velvet Touch? What's your hunch on that? I have no hunch about it. The KNOWN FACT include the FACT he had an appointment. The known reported facts make it clear that only a very naive person would have gone into "The Velvet Touch" without realizing what kind of establishment it was. Which is what the use of assumptions that he was there for sexual gratification (and I do not believe for one second this is not what you are trying to push) are such a joke. Edited May 1, 2011 by CANADIEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Now that you mention it kimmy, it seems to me that most therapeutic masseuses and masseurs operate independently with independent facilities, and don't affiliate together in one single operation. For example, my masseuse has one office with her name on the door.Here is a list of RMT for Toronto:http://www.rmtfind.com/results.asp?CITY=TORONTO 90% use the personal name. After that 'Spa' is as racy as it gets. I don't think anyone can credibly argue that 'velvet touch' is not a name that suggest escort services if it attached to a massage palour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 "Guilty until proven innocent!" The new conservative slogan for Canada. It's not about "guilty". It's about what kind of a guy he is. If he was the kind of guy he portrays himself as, he wouldn't have been there in the first place. Doesn't make him a criminal. Just makes him a guy I lost a bunch of respect for. But I wasn't voting for him anyway, so it doesn't matter. I'm interested in how this is going over with people who are voting for him. Clearly, people who do support him are willing to believe that he didn't know what kind of place he was going to. Personally, I think that's just desperation. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Mine works in a spa with many other masseuse therapists who also work out of the same spa. Your claim is silly. Mine is set up in my living room 7ft from the tv. Her name is la-z-boy. To expand on kimmy's point. Why is it that we give layton the automatic benefit of the doubt for going to massage parlor's (rightly so btw) but at the same time stockwell day and harper get raked through the coals because they frequent church? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 Mine is set up in my living room 7ft from the tv. Her name is la-z-boy. To expand on kimmy's point. Why is it that we give layton the automatic benefit of the doubt for going to massage parlor's (rightly so btw) but at the same time stockwell day and harper get raked through the coals because they frequent church? Because we live in Canada where we don't assume someone is guilty of something until they are proven to be. That is the Canada I want to live in. You may have a different idea of a country where rumor and innuendo is how people are judged. I don't want to live in that country. Sorry. I have no clue what you are talking about. I have and have never seen the media rake anyone through the coals for going to church. This "we are such victims" conservatives play is so sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 [...]Why is it that we give layton the automatic benefit of the doubt for going to massage parlor's (rightly so btw) but at the same time stockwell day and harper get raked through the coals because they frequent church? Layton is being raked through the coals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted May 1, 2011 Report Share Posted May 1, 2011 But I wasn't voting for him anyway, so it doesn't matter. As demonstrated by your coming back again and again with the same insinuations and innuendos. I'm interested in how this is going over with people who are voting for him. Clearly, people who do support him are willing to believe that he didn't know what kind of place he was going to. and quite a few who wouldn't vote NDP if it was the only party left on the ballot. Personally, I think that's just desperation. -k The desperation is yours. Me, I am just having a blast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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