Mike Harris did nothing wrong.

[Argus]

If Harris Did Nothing Wrong-Why Was He The Most Hated Premier in Ontario History-And He Had To Have A Body Guard 24/7.........think about it.....no other Premier Ever Had Too!!!

Because the left in Ontario are like whiny, spoiled children. Harris dared to cut back on their pork, on their "allowance". He dared to suggest that the government wasn't made of money and couldn't afford to give huge salaries and payouts to everyone in the province. He tried to cut back, to save money.

The left were HORRIFIED! They screamed and shrieked like a tiny child whose rattle was being taken away. You never saw such an indignant, outraged bunch! That was THEIR money! They were ENTITLED to it! How DARE he not give them everything they wanted! How DARE he try to save money! There was always money to go around, they insisted. He only had to raise taxes.

At heart, almost everything Harris ever did which infuriated the left involved him not giving them enough money. And oh how violently angry they were! Like I said, spoiled, sullen brats who felt robbed because money they never worked for wasn't flowing to them as they felt it should.

[Big Blue Machine]

The worst premier in Ontario History was Bob "The Dork" Rae of NDP. He only won in 1990 because everyone hated the Liberals and the Tories were in the dumps.

[Reverend Blair]

I know quite a few people, some of them business people, who credit Bob Rae with getting the Ontario economy rolling again. The dates bear them out. The current boom started under his government, Harris just inherited the real gravy.

Argus, you are complaining because we have the temerity to say that teachers and civil servants have wages that put them in the middle class. Woo-hoo, we allow them to make a decent living and that makes them bad people and us all communists.

August...Survivor benefits are just that, benefits that survivors are entitled to should the policy holder die. The last corporation I worked for had a plan that offered a one time pay-out of three years of my full wage, then 75% percent of that wage until I would have been 65, when my pension benefit would have kicked in. Full health and dental continued for life. It was an above-average plan, no doubt, but we did not have a union and there was certainly no government involvement.

Have the Ontario teachers, through their union, gotten themselves an excellent plan? Yes. Should we blame them? Nobody blamed me for the plan I had when I worked at that job.

[takeanumber]

I find the Conservative attitude towards teachers and nurses disgusting to say the least.

They study for 6-8 years to do what they do.

They should have pay that is consumerate with their education.

[Argus]

I find the Conservative attitude towards teachers and nurses disgusting to say the least.

They study for 6-8 years to do what they do.

They should have pay that is consumerate with their education.

Okay, uh, so if I study for 6-8 years to be a janitor will you pay me $70,000 a year too?

No, don't even try to suggest you don't need all that education to be a janitor. That's not important.

[Argus]

Argus, you are complaining because we have the temerity to say that teachers and civil servants have wages that put them in the middle class.  Woo-hoo, we allow them to make a decent living and that makes them bad people and us all communists. 

Maybe you should get a better teacher; one that teaches you better reading comprehension. I never complained about teachers and civil servants and their wages, nor did I suggest they were "bad people".

I did, however, generalize about how spoiled and resentful people on the left are - and that includes the leaders of the teachers and civil servants unions.

[caesar]

HMMM why should teachers and nurses be selected to be criticized for their paycheck and pension benefits; which is really only average. Is it because they are mainly women? HMMMMMMM

Don't see you compalining about those over paid doctors now do we.

[Michael Hardner]

iamcanadian had a good point: Harris did exactly what he said he would do. But the way in which he did it was very un-Ontarian.

I personally don't think he was a very good manager, but he had an excellent publicity machine and excelled at politics. But that can only last so long. People expected government to continue working normally at those lower tax levels.

In the end, his attitude and lack of ability caught up with him. Every few years, though, when the conservative leadership is vacated again, his friends leak something to the press saying he's mulling over a run. But the polls don't show him to be very popular any more.

[August1991]

I find the Conservative attitude towards teachers and nurses disgusting to say the least.

Name me a corporation that forces you to pay for its product even if you don't want it and decide to buy a competitor's product.

Name me a corporation that forces you to consume the product it decides and gives you little or no say in the matter.

Our modern education system is precisely that.

It gets worse. People working in a monopoly that has no need to seek customers eventually lose touch with reality.

The provincial ministries of education have become bureaucratic monsters where most civil servants have long since lost sight of what they are supposed to do. Teachers' unions are a parallel bureaucracy acting as an official opposition to the "employer". Like all bureaucracy, the meetings are endless and the jargon arcane.

One can stray for a while but eventually hard reality sets in. At least kids sitting in a classroom are real. Teachers as a minimum have to face that reality.

Many of these comments would apply equally to our medical system.

[Michael Hardner]

People working in a monopoly that has no need to seek customers eventually lose touch with reality.

The provincial ministries of education have become bureaucratic monsters where most civil servants have long since lost sight of what they are supposed to do.

This is true. Bureaucracies are central to our government, yet we still don't know how to manage them.

My teacher friends have told me stories about the additional bureaucracy that Mike Harris added to the Ministry of Education. There was supposed to be a criminal check done on all teachers, but it's not going well, apparently. Lately, they've asked teachers to volunteer their secret criminal past so that they may be dismissed. Hmm....

McGuinty's new bureaucracies will fare no better.

What's the answer ? A top to bottom reworking of everything the system does, with buy-in from unions and management and the government, yet it must be done by people outside the system with no agenda. Oh yes, and they have to be superhumanly smart and fair.

Can it be done ?

The first politican that achieves this will be rewarded like no other.

[Edge]

A lot of people hated Harris because he told people the way things were. He told the teachers that you can't always get what you want, in a manner of speaking. After that the teachers cried out that he was evil and people believed it all. Harris was left with a dump after the NDP ruined us. But he was the bad guy. He also revieved less spending when Paul Martin cut medicare to fix the national defecit, so in order to keep the health care the same he had to cut other programs, which didn't go over so well.

[takeanumber]

Our modern education system is precisely that.

No, it isn't Argus.

I shouldn't have to teach you basic economics, and the difference between a public good and a private good.

Would you please, you know, take a course or something? Because I just don't have the patience to sit here and explain something fundamental to you.

And if you don't understand the fundamentals, then you have no hope of understanding a cogent arguement, and therefore, you'll get mad and call me a commie, even though I'm really more free market than you are (recall, I'm centre-right Libertarian).

So, look me up when you do some research.

[August1991]

Which is education, a private good or a public good? It looks pretty much like a private good to me. In Canada, it's a state-provided private good, like health care.

----

But think for a second. We take kids at the age of about 4 and put them through this State-controlled environment until they're about 20 or so. Many don't get through. Those that do get through often learn little. Almost all of them find most of it excruciatingly boring.

This is somehow Orwellian. I am surprised that this still exists in the 21st century.

Final point. Where do rich Canadians send their kids?

Are you aware that many secondary schools in Quebec are private but receive State subsidies?

The best way to understand a society is to understand its education system. People are never more self-interested than when the question concerns the welfare of their children.

[Reverend Blair]

An educated population is a public good. Is the current system working? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I would say that it needs improvement.

That improvement will not come if we do not properly fund it. That improvement will not come if we accept inner city schools having lower success rates that suburban schools. That improvement will not come if we use schools to turn out zombie workers. Those things take a public good and turn it into a private good.

[mockingbird]

He got people off welfare that shoudn't have been on welfare. He and Ernie Eves brought the massive deficits down to balanced budgets. He did a revolution in his first two years in office. The Common Sense Revolution to the exact. He and the government won the teachers strike of 1996. And he won a second majority in 1999.

Wrong. He got people off welfare, and they just came right back, more miserable than before. There are some vague statistics on reduced caseloads after the ontario works act came into place, but no in depth statistics to follow up on those people.

It is a huge misconception that welfare has a lot of fraud. Welfare in actuality has very little fraud on the part of the participants. The fraud commited is actually on the part of the government. Information is withheld and misinformation is deliberately given to deter people from getting rightfully what is theirs.

ontario works in itself has a nazi ideology to it. When the Jews were marching into Aushwitz, there was a sign that said "work makes you free."

To name a social assistance program "ontario works" is an insult and degradation in itself to the abused who as a last resort seek assistance.

Mike harris may he rot in hell after a lengthy torture didn't just seek to reduce welfare, he sought a means to impose a brutal system to abuse those that are on welfare and frighten those seeking to reapply (People who have never heard of ontario works do not know what they're in for). Quotas placed on delivery agents, bonuses offered... (Delivery agents - who are "social workers", are actually paid based on who they get OFF welfare and offered bonus incentives to treat people like shit.)

Incidentally, this idea of forcing people to work for welfare was invented by Bob Rae. Mike harris may he rot took this a step further and implemented a system where the person is actually discouraged from working and forced to work at the same time.

As for your "common sense revolution" mike harris is the biggest fool of all time. he didn't realize that there would be a huge boom in 97-98. In effect he tortured the poor and pleased the rich for nothing. All his cruel efforts were for nothing (For those who defend him, he himself only decided to make cuts to show off his supposed talent).

He in effect only succeeded in depriving the poor of even more.

Had mcguinty been elected in 2000 I believe we would be in much better shape now. Mcguinty is a loser now.

My only question is how could Ontario vote for the same guy twice in a row? Is Canada the appitamy of evil?

[cybercoma]

If Harris Did Nothing Wrong-Why Was He The Most Hated Premier in Ontario History-And He Had To Have A Body Guard 24/7.........think about it.....no other Premier Ever Had Too!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The most hated majority government. Interesting.

[cybercoma]

Oh and teachers just cried about Harris because he was one and knew the game they were playing from being on their side.

[Big Blue Machine]

If Harris Did Nothing Wrong-Why Was He The Most Hated Premier in Ontario History-And He Had To Have A Body Guard 24/7.........think about it.....no other Premier Ever Had Too!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The most hated majority government. Interesting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even more hated than Trudeau's majority government of 1980-1984? Even more hated than Rae's majority government of 1990-1995?

[Renegade]

The people who hated Harris weren't the ones who voted for him to begin with.

Bring back Mike to lead the federal Conservatives and maybe they'll have a chance.

[Guest eureka]

Mockingbird, you express yourself passionately but you do not exaggerate. Harris was evil. As for Harris having been a teacher, he was a failed teacher and was fired for his laziness and incompetence and for another reason that I am not going to go into unless it comes out in the history of his disaster. That is the chief reason for his assault on the profession: a singularly mean-spirited assault to revenge himself on those who had pricked his ego.

You speak only of the poor, though, when there is not an economic or social facet of society that he did not destroy.

He was a spolied rich kid and a racist condemned out of his own mouth.

[cybercoma]

Mockingbird, you express yourself passionately but you do not exaggerate. Harris was evil. As for Harris having been a teacher, he was a failed teacher and was fired for his laziness and incompetence and for another reason that I am not going to go into unless it comes out in the history of his disaster. That is the chief reason for his assault on the profession: a singularly mean-spirited assault to revenge himself on those who had pricked his ego.

You speak only of the poor, though, when there is not an economic or social facet of society that he did not destroy.

He was a spolied rich kid and a racist condemned out of his own mouth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What an ignorant mess of personal attacks and libel.

[Guest eureka]

When did truth and fact become personal attacks and libel?

[err]

Mr. Harris and Mr. Eves left Ontario with a massive deficit in the middle of historically low interest rates and a long period without serious stuctural recession (Sept 11 excepted).

It was quite an impressive feat.

Actually, Harris had a balanced buget. Only in the final year, a year with Sars, Mad Cow, the great Blackout, etc. did Ernie Eves run a deficit. Nor was that deficit nearly as big as the Liberals are making out. If the Tories had gotten releelected it probably would have been no more than 1 billion or so, and if they increased taxes anywhere near what the Liberals have they'd have had a surplus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where did you get this information (mis-information). Harris promised huge tax cuts, which the province could not afford to make... $14 Billion... Then they had to hide the huge deficit that they made... so they sold the 407 for much less than its worth.... And Ontarians will pay foriegners a fortune for the 95 years left in the lease of the highway.

They sold of most of our electricity generating capacity to Brascon, Great Lakes Energy, and British Petroleum..... for a fraction of its worth.... Now, Brascon can generate electricity for $0.005 per kilowatt-Hour, and charge us $0.16 for it in the warm weather.... All this is money going right out of the province....

They also removed some of our provincial taxes by moving social services onto municipal budgets.... So they reduced our provincial taxes by a smidgen, and our property taxes go through the roof. We now have service charges and loss of services, loss of medical services, cuts to education....

And who benefited from the Tory tax savings.... Well, out of the $14 billion tax cuts, about 50% went to 1% of the population (the wealthiest % of the population).... Most Ontarians actually are paying a lot more tax now because of the Tory Tax cuts.... in service charges, in the regressive health tax, in raised property taxes.

The wealthiest Ontarians benefited from the Tory Tax cuts, and the rest of us have to deal with the service cuts and increased costs due to the huge deficit they left.

[for_liberty]

Since when did social services become a right that could not be taken away? The same people who cry murder anytime the religious right tries to impose their ideals cry murder when we don't follow their ideals. When you have a goverment that can take money by force to fund these programs will one day turn around and do something in the future that you don't like. It sets a precendent. I know the argument is "majoraty rules" in a democracy, but since when is it right for a majority to rule the minoraty? In the 40's segregation laws where popular and probably won a majoraty vote, is that right or just?

The problem is we have a goverment that is big enough to give us everything and also big enought to take it all away. Is that the government you want?

Sorry if there are any spelling mistakes, i couldn't find the spell check.

[err]

The problem is we have a goverment that is big enough to give us everything and also big enought to take it all away. Is that the government you want?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I want a goverment that puts its people first.... Mike Harris's regime was nothing like this. He took from Ontario's citizens to give to the people who needed it least. I hope Ontario learns for more than just a few years that conservative politics only hurt citizens....

Here, we'll take away thousands of dollars of services from you, because you don't need them as much as the few dollars we're going to give back to you to invest more wisely than we can.  This will empower you, and not waste your money on welfare for lazy bums and teachers.  Then we can give thousands back to that factory owner, and the economy will be way better, and we'll all be really happy...

But one thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.... and we'll probably be back down that path again....