Inflation at its highest rates in more than two years

[Bryan]

And if you don't work in the energy sector, or have shares, or receive subsidies, then you don't really benefit, do you?

So a broad statement like "Canadians benefit when energy costs go up" isn't really accurate is it? Only a small portion of Canadians benefit and the vast majority of us... not so much.

Government ends up with a lot more revenue, making paying down the deficit easier and faster, making further tax cuts possible, even making further programs possible. High energy prices are good for Canadians as a whole.

[WWWTT]

Higher energy prices benefit Canadians.

Canada is an exporter of energy. We export oil, natural gas and electricity directly but also through energy intensive products such as aluminium, paper and glass.

When the world price of oil goes up, all things considered, Canadians are better off.

Private Corporations are bad? WWWTT, do you favour State ownership of the means of production? IOW, you want to turn Canada into the Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea. Looks good on paper - all the experts say so, but it doesn't work in practice.

If this is such a well known great statement then why aern't any politicians (Harper) using it in his campaign.

Its because it is freekin ridiculous and would turn into the "Kiss of Death"

I am not even sure if you yourself believe this

WWWTT

[Smallc]

High energy prices are good for Canadians as a whole.

Not really. The Canadian economy is far more than just energy.

[Hydraboss]

August,

Let me tell you this: I have worked in the energy sector in Western Canada for 18 years. I fully understand the effects of higher O&G prices and how it directly relates to my job and that of the other 8800 people in the Canadian side of my operations (won't discuss the US side now). But all in all, here's the truth. Gas has gone through the roof again (2007 anyone?) and if I paid for gas for either of the trucks in my driveway, I'd be pissed off. When it costs $130 to fill a half-ton, it's just too much for some people. As for power (electricity) - I'm in Alberta. My little 1250 sq ft house cost me $207 last month for electricity...this month it's going up 66%. That's right...gonna be about $344 this month. Now tell me again how these increases are good for me.

I UNDERSTAND the macroeconomics of energy prices, but that doesn't help pay my bills. People that are bitching about this and the only answer is some partisan crap, well, I call bullshit to the answers. People ARE hurting from these increases and a "nothing" answer from politicians would do nothing (unless their hot air can heat my house).

[WWWTT]

Jacl Layton wants to eliminate the tax on home heating fuels and this would seriously help out.

Yes there are politicians trying to help.

Help them help you and on May 2nd put your mark beside your local NDP candidate.

WWWTT

[M.Dancer]

My problem with corporations is that almost none of the ones in Canada are Canadian.

That is demonstratable nonsense.

http://www.tmx.com/HttpController?GetPage=ListedCompaniesViewPage&Language=en&Market=T

[blueblood]

August,

Let me tell you this: I have worked in the energy sector in Western Canada for 18 years. I fully understand the effects of higher O&G prices and how it directly relates to my job and that of the other 8800 people in the Canadian side of my operations (won't discuss the US side now). But all in all, here's the truth. Gas has gone through the roof again (2007 anyone?) and if I paid for gas for either of the trucks in my driveway, I'd be pissed off. When it costs $130 to fill a half-ton, it's just too much for some people. As for power (electricity) - I'm in Alberta. My little 1250 sq ft house cost me $207 last month for electricity...this month it's going up 66%. That's right...gonna be about $344 this month. Now tell me again how these increases are good for me.

I UNDERSTAND the macroeconomics of energy prices, but that doesn't help pay my bills. People that are bitching about this and the only answer is some partisan crap, well, I call bullshit to the answers. People ARE hurting from these increases and a "nothing" answer from politicians would do nothing (unless their hot air can heat my house).

Hydraboss, how much work do you have?

Since you are in the oil and gas sector, I will assume you have a lot. It could be worse, you could own a furniture store in ohio right now and have to deal with a country being a net importer of energy and unemployed factory workers. All of a sudden that 130 dollar truck fillup doesn't look so bad.

Being in the ag industry I have to deal with people complaining about high food prices even though canada is one of the largest exporters in the world. Yes the groceries cost more, but I have much better returns than when food was cheap and the govt gets to collect more tax dollars. No one in the ag industry complains about fuel anymore. Higher fuel prices these days haven't cut into margins and in a way have benefitted us.

Look at how much govts in canada spend, if we didn't have oil and gas and ag exports helping us out, I cringe to think of what my tax bill would be to pay for all of this we currently have...

[icman]

I am. Why should Celine be forced to sing at home in the kitchen when she can sing in Las Vegas in concert? If Canadians have alot of oil or electricity, it is foolish to use this resource at home for cheap when we can sell it abroad for more. To sell home heating oil in Canada below the world price (as the NDP wants) amounts to forcing Crosby to play in a local Nova Scotia league.

[Do I have that right? According to wikipedia, Sydney Crosby is from Nova Scotia.]

August, your ideas are only true in a perfect world. Canadians do not benefit from Celine singing in Las Vegas. But she is an individual, not a corporation, and so her work product is hers and hers alone (except for taxes, of course). Also, her product can be copied without resource contraints and sold at higher and higher margin as the number of copies increase in volume. This is not true of oil.

But that major difference isn't even the one germain to my point.

We have no alternative on the back burner for when oil runs out. When oil starts to become scarce, everthing we do to provide "wealth" for people will go up in smoke. We use oil to make our food (gas for tractors), transport all our goods including food and oil, run our manufacturing plants (oil burned to make electricity), and make all our plastics. When it runs out, or starts to really run out, chaos and mayhem are inevitable.

As a result, we will be richer in the future if we take steps to ration it now, and especially richer if we invest in the discovery and development of an alternative energy infrastructure. Petrol dollars will crash when oil runs out, and so will be worthless, so transforming our valuable resource into cash for later investment doesn't make sense when the basis for the value of that cash is dying.

Another issue about corporations being bad is that its not the Corporations per se (though the pressure they deliberately bring to bear on governments to support their own interests doesn't help). Politicians constantly cave to their pressure. And horrible things result. For example, foreign ownership of national resources. Canadian oil extraction rights should not be being sold to Exxon and Chevron and Shell. Suncor should not be owned and goverened by a consortium of foreign oil companies.

You might say, why not? They are creating jobs in Canada, developing our resources, and paying taxes here - what's the problem? Well, 1) such sentiment implies that Canadians are not "good" enough to own the means of production in their own nation, that we are only good enough to employees to foreign owners, and 2) there are ways to extract capital from Canadian companies into their parent companies to siphon off tax revenue on the development of those resources. Free trade is the best enabler - a foreign owned company in Canada buys all their supplies from a US or European company at vastly inflated prices simply to reduce their taxable income, and that cash is moved out of Canada as a tax-deductable expense, resulting in lower tax revenue for Canada. 3) Corporation management teams constantly put downward pressure on worker salaries and pay, put downward pressure on expenditures for health and safety, all while citing sob-stories of insolvency (and the resulting job losses) to regulators and law-makers, then grant themselves and their shareholders big bonuses and dividends as a pat on the back for their ingenuity. Politicians, who seem to be cowardly, and are never ones to own up to mistakes, let it slide again and again. MS media outlets, privately held by the same holding companies that own large or majority interests the offending corporations, don't exactly crusade against this type of activity which goes on ALL THE TIME.

Yeah, corporations may create jobs, but that shouldn't give them license to screw the workers they provide those jobs to. Yes, they contribute to local economies, but that shouldn't give the license to get away with polluting the local water and air and slowly killing the people in that local economy.

This is not the corporations' fault. This fault primarily lands back on the people of Canada, who don't demand better treatment from the institutions (political and private) that, in a democratic nation, should work for them.

Your raw capitalist notions about how the world should work are just as naive as those of the pure socialist.

Edited April 20, 2011 by icman

[icman]

That is demonstratable nonsense.

http://www.tmx.com/HttpController?GetPage=ListedCompaniesViewPage&Language=en&Market=T

What is your point? Being listed on an exchange means people can use that exchange to buy and sell your stock. It doens't mean you are a registered company in that nation. And even if it did (which it doesn't), being a registered corporation in a country doens't mean that the people who control your actions are citizens, or even residents, of that country.

Canadian Tire is still a Canadian company, but it's not owned and controlled by Canadians. Roots, Sears, HBC, Suncor, Alcan, Falconbridge, Tim Hortons, Future Shop - they were all once Canadian companies, but now are all controlled by foreign owners. In some cases, not even by a large number of foreign owners from different lands, but a single foreign parent firm.

Canadians have turned ourselves from a proud and self-sufficient mix of owners and workers to a land of workers, and abdicated from running our own affairs.

The fact that we were stupid-lucky to have ignored Conservative pressure to deregulate our banks 15 years ago has put Canadians in a position to buy back our places at the Boards of Directors in North America, what with our dollar being over par with the US, and US assets currently undervalued. We ducked the worst of the recession because of well-regulated banks. Considering the heated debates we had over banking deregulation, was it dumb luck, or sensible Canadians?

Edited April 20, 2011 by icman

[M.Dancer]

Canadian Tire is still a Canadian company, but it's not owned and controlled by Canadians.

That too is nonsense...

So is this..

Suncor, ... they were all once Canadian companies, but now are all controlled by foreign owners.

Institutional owners of Suncor

Top 10 Institutional Holders: SU

Name Shares Estimated Value of Shares * Holdings Shares Outstanding Turnover Rating

Capital World Investors 92.57 M 3.54 B 0.87% 5.89% Low

RBC Global Asset Management Inc. 57.48 M 2.20 B 2.49% 3.66% Low

BMO Capital Markets (US) 38.91 M 1.74 B 4.16% 2.48% Low

Pyramis Global Advisors, LLC 39.15 M 1.50 B 2.39% 2.49% Low

BlackRock Asset Management Canada Limited 35.11 M 1.34 B 3.41% 2.23% Low

TD Asset Management Inc. 29.97 M 1.15 B 2.28% 1.91% Low

I.G. Investment Management, Ltd. 28.95 M 1.11 B 2.57% 1.84% Low

T. Rowe Price Associates, Inc. 27.07 M 1.04 B 0.34% 1.72% Low

BlackRock Institutional Trust Company, N.A. 25.11 M 961.38 M 0.12% 1.60% Low

McLean Budden Ltd. 23.7 M 907.49 M 4.42% 1.51% Low

Edited April 20, 2011 by M.Dancer

[icman]

August,

Let me tell you this: I have worked in the energy sector in Western Canada for 18 years. I fully understand the effects of higher O&G prices and how it directly relates to my job and that of the other 8800 people in the Canadian side of my operations (won't discuss the US side now). But all in all, here's the truth. Gas has gone through the roof again (2007 anyone?) and if I paid for gas for either of the trucks in my driveway, I'd be pissed off. When it costs $130 to fill a half-ton, it's just too much for some people. As for power (electricity) - I'm in Alberta. My little 1250 sq ft house cost me $207 last month for electricity...this month it's going up 66%. That's right...gonna be about $344 this month. Now tell me again how these increases are good for me.

I UNDERSTAND the macroeconomics of energy prices, but that doesn't help pay my bills. People that are bitching about this and the only answer is some partisan crap, well, I call bullshit to the answers. People ARE hurting from these increases and a "nothing" answer from politicians would do nothing (unless their hot air can heat my house).

You are absolutely right. So then, where is the investment in alternatives? With the entire global economy, and the current carrying capacity of the planet, so highly dependent on a resource that has peaked its production, and in which demand will only continue to increase rapidly, we need an alternative. Why isn't there a "put Man on the moon" level of effort going into finding reasonably safe, alternative energy source to replace oil, which we KNOW is running out?

[icman]

That too is nonsense...

So is this..

Institutional owners of Suncor

Top 10 Institutional Holders: SU

Name Shares Estimated Value of Shares * Holdings Shares Outstanding Turnover Rating

Capital World Investors 92.57 M 3.54 B 0.87% 5.89% Low

RBC Global Asset Management Inc. 57.48 M 2.20 B 2.49% 3.66% Low

BMO Capital Markets (US) 38.91 M 1.74 B 4.16% 2.48% Low

Pyramis Global Advisors, LLC 39.15 M 1.50 B 2.39% 2.49% Low

BlackRock Asset Management Canada Limited 35.11 M 1.34 B 3.41% 2.23% Low

TD Asset Management Inc. 29.97 M 1.15 B 2.28% 1.91% Low

I.G. Investment Management, Ltd. 28.95 M 1.11 B 2.57% 1.84% Low

T. Rowe Price Associates, Inc. 27.07 M 1.04 B 0.34% 1.72% Low

BlackRock Institutional Trust Company, N.A. 25.11 M 961.38 M 0.12% 1.60% Low

McLean Budden Ltd. 23.7 M 907.49 M 4.42% 1.51% Low

Thank you.

Capital World Investoris is a private investors fund run out of Los Angeles. I'm pretty sure that's Los Angeles, California, not Los Angeles, Alberta. Wait, there is no Los Angeles, Alberta!

Pyramus operates in the US, Canada, the UK, and Hong Kong. There is no mention of which Pyramus groups owns those shares, nor where its world headquarters is located.

T Rowe Price is a US investment firm in Baltimore.

BlackRock Asset Management Canada is Canadian, but it is owned by BlackRock, which also owns BlackRock Institutional Trust. Blackrock claims "Our firm's ownership structure is designed to maintain the independence we believe is necessary to retain our commitments to client focus and investment excellence. BlackRock, Inc. (NYSE: BLK) has no single majority stockholder and has a majority of independent directors." However, the three principle owners of BlackRock are US financial companies. Oh, and BlackRock's world headquarters is in New York, run by an American executive team which sets the paramaters and policies for its services abroad.

McClean Budden claims to be Canadian, but there is no ownership information on their web site. I would have to dig deeper and I have other things to do today.

I thought I.G. was Canadian, and am happy to say that they are owned by Canadian company (and headquartered in Montreal) Power Finacial Corporation, which is a scary-large company that owns IG, Great West Life, London Life, Putnam Investments, Mackenzie Finacial, and others.

SO, controlling interest of SunCor is in American hands, and China purchased a sizeable chunk of it two years ago (though not enough to get on the top 10 list, it would seem). Three Canadian banks, Investors Group, and perhaps McClean Budden are the token Canadians on the board.

I will relent on Canadian Tire. I thought I heard that controlling interest was sold to an American company, but I can't find any info on the web, and the latest info I have off the web was that a very Canadian Martha Billes bought up 61% of Canadian Tire by purchasing her two brothers' shares in 1997. So, unless someone has the American purchase information, I will have to concede (happily, I might add) that Canadian Tire remains a Canadian company.

In fact, I found this link on Martha Billes, and it lifted my heart a little wrt the issue of Canadians owning Canada. http://www.ryerson.ca/tedrogersschool/news/General_Public/billes09.html

Edited April 20, 2011 by icman

[M.Dancer]

SO, controlling interest of SunCor is in American hands, and China purchased a sizeable chunk of it two

You conveniently overlook IG Investment management and jarislowsky I omitted the caisee de depot...

Institutionals (all) own 65%

The top 10 own 25%

Canadian institutionals in the top 10 own 15%

Reatil shareholders make up another 30% who are overwhelmingly Canadian thorugh individual buying and through company stock puchase plans (suncor and petro canada)

Not to mention that their board is overwhelmingly Canadian

So, in short, you assertion that corporations in Canada are foreign in tinfoil hat material.

[Scotty]

The price of gas is inching closer to 1.40/L

Home heating costs up near 30%

Food up

And it's a cold, rainy day outside. No doubt that's Harper's fault, too, and if we just vote for Smiling Jack Layton and his retrograde socialists all will be sunny and warm forever.

[Scotty]

I am not prepared to share any ideas with you at this time

Hahahahahahahahaha!

Is that the official NDP position on how they're going to control the price of food and oil? :lol:

[Scotty]

If this is such a well known great statement then why aern't any politicians (Harper) using it in his campaign.

Maybe because no one has been dumb enough to demand they do something about the world price of oil.

[Scotty]

Jacl Layton wants to eliminate the tax on home heating fuels and this would seriously help out.

Riiiight. And the bigger your house, the more it would help you! So everyone in those big, million dollar mansions would benefit nicely. And the little people in rental housing? How much would they benefit?

Why does the NDP want to bring in policies which benefit the rich more than the poor!?

[Moonbox]

Not really. The Canadian economy is far more than just energy.

The Canadian economy is mostly energy and resources. Because we sell so much of it, higher energy prices increase our tax revenues etc etc..

The average household sees only the literal price of gas at the pumps. They never see or take into account the tax revenue the government gets from all the oil, which helps keep other taxes down and government spending available. They also don't see how much effect higher energy prices have on making our dollar more valuable, and thus every dollar should be able to purchase more. The only reason we haven't seen so much inflation over the last year or so is because of our inflated dollar. Interest rates are going to start going up very soon, which will drop the inflation rates back to normal.

The other benefit we'll see from higher energy prices is (gasp) more manufacturing at home. Eventually higher energy prices will start to erode the labor cost advantage of Asia because transportation of larger items will become prohibitively expensive. If energy prices continue to go up, or stay where they are, it will help keep jobs here.

The higher the energy prices go, the more export $$$ Canada is getting.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Moonbox

[sk1d]

The price of gas is inching closer to 1.40/L

Home heating costs up near 30%

Food up

Wow does anybody here really believe that the conservatives or Liberals can help the average family in Canada?

This is the worst news since the recession hit in late 08.

Time for a real change in direction,lets put Canadians ahead of corporations.

Vote NDP

WWWTT

I really don't think there's much any Canadian political party can do about the increasing price of commodities. With Quantitative Easing in the US where the Fed is essentially printing billions of dollars. When those dollars enter the system, they end up going into the markets and especially the commodities markets pushing up the price of oil and food products.

Couple of questions:

How do the royalties to the government work? Do they get a fixed amount per barrel of oil they pump out of the ground? Or do they get an amount based on the selling price of that barrel of oil?

Also, as far as I understand it, most of our raw oil and gas is sold to the US to be processed and then we buy it back as gasoline and fuel. Is that right?

[RNG]

How do the royalties to the government work? Do they get a fixed amount per barrel of oil they pump out of the ground? Or do they get an amount based on the selling price of that barrel of oil?

Also, as far as I understand it, most of our raw oil and gas is sold to the US to be processed and then we buy it back as gasoline and fuel. Is that right?

Talking Alberta, Saskatchewan and BC, royalties are some percentage of the dollar value, so when prices drop, government revenue drops. This hurt all three of those provinces through this last period of low prices.

And Canada is a net exporter of refined products. I believe there may be some importing in the east, but there is more exporting in the west.

[M.Dancer]

Talking Alberta, Saskatchewan and BC, royalties are some percentage of the dollar value, so when prices drop, government revenue drops. This hurt all three of those provinces through this last period of low prices.

And Canada is a net exporter of refined products. I believe there may be some importing in the east, but there is more exporting in the west.

and we can't forget that at the pump, around 33% of the price is tax

[RNG]

and we can't forget that at the pump, around 33% of the price is tax

Here it's more, a bit over 40%.

[Smallc]

The Canadian economy is mostly energy and resources. Because we sell so much of it, higher energy prices increase our tax revenues etc etc..

That's not completely correct. Our economy is far more than energy, with sectors ranging from agriculture, to manufacturing, to financial services. The country's population (and internal spending is the bulk of our economy) can't survive financially these types of massive increases in the energy price.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Smallc

[M.Dancer]

That's not completely correct. Our economy is far more than energy, with sectors ranging from agriculture, to manufacturing, to financial services. The country's population (and internal spending is the bulk of our economy) can't survive financially these types of massive increases in the energy price.

Energy though may be the largest sector. Almost 50% of the listed companies on the TSX and TSX-V are energy, resources or firms servicing those areas.

[Smallc]

Energy though may be the largest sector. Almost 50% of the listed companies on the TSX and TSX-V are energy, resources or firms servicing those areas.

It may very well be, but it isn't the entire economy, and high energy prices are not good for the 40% of the economy that's in Ontario.