Health Care

[noelandmero]

Everyone on this board seems to love to debate health care and health care models. Well Our system is not the cheapest and not the best it is only the most public of any health care system in the western world. Left and right on this board most people do seem honestly concerned about what is happening to our system. I have a copy of the british governments 2001-2002 healthcare systems study that compares 9 countries systems and lays out some of the pros and cons of each, it also has real figures on cost. It is a 55 page PDF file that I have no idea how to post or how to share with you all. If anybody knows how I could post it or would like a copy emailed to them I would be happy to do so. I think it has alot to offer people on both sides of the spectrum as I think everyone can agree more money with out a plan is not the answer.

[maplesyrup]

Ontario to buy private clinics

Now you're talking - brilliant strategy!!!

[caesar]

noelandmero; I would love a copy. Did you get it from a website? You could just post the web address.

[Guest eureka]

I think that, in any discussion of healthcare in Canada, not only the cost should be kept in mind. The agreed role of the federal government in healthcare is the only major jurisdiciton outside of crilminal law. in which the federal government has a leading role.

Thus, this one area alone, absurdly, but in reality, has become the glue of federalism in Canada. This was the great danger of the strangely baned "Conservative" Party and the Alliance and Reform Parties before them. They would all have withdrawn from healthcare and turned Canada into a squabbling, competing group of autonomous regions.

Cost and efficiency are important and there is little doubt in my mind that delivery can be improved. Let's not forget, however, that there is a factor that cannot be costed but that is essential.

There is also, undoubtedly, a significant additional expense in the multipkication of bureaucracies dealing with what should clearly require (and demand for equal delivery nationwide) only one central authority with regional administration.

[Bakunin]

i think we should let a place to the private for the moment since we don't have enough money for healthcare for the moment but it doesnt have to be like that forever. Just the time we rebuild our system.

2nd they desparatly needs the help of computers to organize them and to save money. If its possible, they should try to use machine trought the network to save duplication cost. I mean to scan they only need the scanner, then it can be send to the network to a central computer who analyse the result to the place of getting 1 computer for 1 machine. 2nd stop paying unnessesary pills because their is a pills for evrything... it just cost too much. The system is too big for what we can support.

[caesar]

I think basci healthcare should be controlled by the federal government. To make it the same across the country and I do believe it would cut down on duplication costs and probably a little siphoning off of Health Care Funds. Seems our provincial government are a little too interested in getting money from the federal government with no strings attached. We do have private clinics here in BC operating on a precarious legal grounds. However much I do not like them; we use them as it is often our only option to avoid a year long wait for a MRI scan. We pay premiums in this province (BC) and therefore should be able to sue for non delivery of a paid for service. I would prefer user fees to private clinics. Just get it back working. The provincial governments have no interest in having medicare working smoothly as it is their method of prying more cash from the feds.

[Cartman]

I can understand when a government does its best to estimate budget deficits/surpluses and makes minor measurement errors. No economist is perfect in a complex world. But, it really angers me that the feds. have taken far too much money from taxpayers, never consider returning it to them and then leave health care poorly funded. That is not "good government".

User fees and premiums are not the best way to further fund health care because poorer people are disproportionately affected. It should be entirely funded through the income tax system which is a sliding tax system. I am not convinced that we have insufficient $$ to fund health care while we have a large surplus available.

I would also like to see more accountability on the part of the provinces.

[caesar]

There are lots of people who over use the Health care system for minor ailments. I think some accountability on that could be worked into the system. People who run to the emergency needlessly. The Provincial government have little interest in having our Health Care run too smoothly. It is one way they have of trying to pry more cash from the federal governments.

Our BC government charged more for premiums; paid less for senior's prescriptions; closed hospitals; laid off union hospital workers for cheaper contract workers. Not to mention higher taxes on cigarettes to pay for the costs to the health system. Where did the money go; Waiting lists have grown; private clinics are here. Doctors got a huge raise; management got a huge raise; nurses got raises but less than what their contract called for. Every hospital seems to have a lottery. Where has the money gone??? I will bet there will be fancy state of the art clinics well staffed for the Olympics participants.

[Bakunin]

It will just cost more and more and more... its frustrating i went 1 time to the hospital in my whole life and half of the taxes i pay goes in our healthcare system. Do i really want to give more than half ? one day we will pay 60% 80% of our taxes for healthcare. Its just ridiculus. Cut the health budget in half and let the bad patient pays. Ill pay if its an unintentional accident or if its a born disease but if someone smoke all his life and get cancer, i don't wanna pay. thats how the system should work. If that would exist, im sure lot of people would quit smoking.

[udawg]

Aging population ... we hear it all the time in the media, but that's because it's true. THAT is where all the money is going. We have more and more people retiring, therefore not paying taxes, but costing even more as far as healthcare is concerned. In probably 15 or 20 years, the baby boom will be mostly dead, and we'll have a more balanced population... for a while. It goes in cycles, but after the baby boom, it should stabilize a bit more. We will have approximately the same number retiring as entering the workforce, and overall healthcare costs vs. taxes will balance out.

As for smokers, and other self-induced diseases, absolutely make them pay. Kind of cruel, since they've already spent thousands on the cigarettes, but nonetheless. We've known for many years now that they're bad for us. And considering the latest slew of stop-smoking aids (and ads), I actually don't think that many new people are smoking. Young people are better informed, and they don't want to die of lung cancer at 47 like their great uncle Phil or whatever. The latest report (out 2 weeks ago, give or take) confirms this; the number of young people who smoke dropped something like 3 or 5 percent since last year.

Overall, there's gonna be a couple tough years ahead of us as far as healthcare goes, but I can see the light at the end of the high-tax tunnel.

[Cartman]

Ill pay if its an unintentional accident or if its a born disease but if someone smoke all his life and get cancer, i don't wanna pay. thats how the system should work.

If we operated the system in this manner, then I do not want to pay for people who eat at fast food restaurants or eat meat at all. I also do not want to pay for people who eat anything but organically grown foods. They are knowingly endangering their health.

In my experience, it is doctors that cost the system too much money. They pull many stunts that increase costs such as getting you to come back for no apparent reason, forcing you to see a GP before seeing a specialist (when you know you only need to see the latter), or doing a full examination when you did not ask for it. There are also many prescriptions that should be over the counter but doctors like to make money from writing a note.

[Bakunin]

If we operated the system in this manner, then I do not want to pay for people who eat at fast food restaurants or eat meat at all. I also do not want to pay for people who eat anything but organically grown foods. They are knowingly endangering their health.

i keep saying smokers should pay. well the one who get cancer and that its linked. Its just so stupid. People will continue to start smoking to look cool and then can'T stop. Who pay for all their problem after ? the society.

As for fastfood, its different. Is not good for health but its not like cigarette.

[Stoker]

i keep saying smokers should pay. well the one who get cancer and that its linked. Its just so stupid. People will continue to start smoking to look cool and then can'T stop. Who pay for all their problem after ? the society.

How can you prove that a smoker that died of Lung Cancer, got Lung Cancer as a result of smoking? What if he was roofer or paver, dealing with the fumes from hot tar for 30 years and got lung Cancer from that........of got it from the enviroment.....etc

As for fastfood, its different. Is not good for health but its not like cigarette.

How's that? Something like over 50% of North Americans are overweight........how is that not bad? I'd also wonder how many fat people we have in Canada compared to smokers.......I now rates of smoking are going down amongest teenagers, well at the same time childhood obesity is growing.

[Cartman]

You cannot inject morality into the health care system. For one, what would you do about a person who has cancer, POSSIBLY from smoking? Without sufficient funds for treatment, would you just send them home to teach them a lesson (thatl learn 'em)? Considering many are terminally ill, should we make their families pay? Secondly, I could make a strong argument that people with a high BMI (fat) are living quite dangerously. Third, many people are inactive and drink alcohol or use other drugs. Fourth, many people drive too fast and expose themselves to very serious risk. You are putting yourself at a much higher risk when you do not drive safely than if you smoke.

Why should I pay for the inactive fat person who drinks alcohol, smokes a fatty and drives like a maniac? These are all CHOICES. I bet that if we inject morality into the system, we could find a way to eliminate public health care altogether.

Personally, I think that the government should just make tobacco illegal rather than carry on with this moral crusade. Who will be the next target of moral crusaders?

[Stoker]

Personally, I think that the government should just make tobacco illegal rather than carry on with this moral crusade. Who will be the next target of moral crusaders?

Why's that? I don't need the government to hold my hand and tell me that smoking is bad for you.......the only "group" that needs protecting are children.......whats next, should the government make Cheeseburgers illegal? What about beer? Corvettes? Where does it end?

[maplesyrup]

People need to take more responsibility for their own personal lifestyle habits, but not quite sure how that would be measured.

It has been proven that smoking is bad both for the smoker and those around the smoker. Maybe smokers need to be quarantined.

[caesar]

"Aging population ... we hear it all the time in the media, but that's because it's true. THAT is where all the money is going. We have more and more people retiring, therefore not paying taxes, but costing even more as far as healthcare is concerned"

That is a lot of malarky too. Most seniors who are retiring have fairly adequate pensions and RRSP are are still paying their share of taxes. Probably more than many of the younger people.

I sure wish we didn't pay taxes but that is not the case.

We soon to retire people; spent the money setting up these systems; Healthcare; roads, power systems, bridges. Many of which are now being poorly maintained by government. Start up costs are expensive.

[caesar]

"has been proven that smoking is bad both for the smoker and those around the smoker. Maybe smokers need to be quarantined"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------Why are smokers the target of the day. People who drink cause problems for others too. Drinking and driving is a leading cause of serious expensive and deadly car accidents. Many who drink, become abusive and beat spouses and children. They often lose their jobs and become a drain on our welfare and court systems. There are many diseases associated with drinking such as cirrohsis. Why is the person who smokes such an easy target and the drinkers get off easy. Politically correct.???

We can blame people who like extreme sports for higher costs to our health system. How about skiiers. Lots of injuries there and a few expensive search parties.

[playfullfellow]

Personally, I think that the government should just make tobacco illegal rather than carry on with this moral crusade. Who will be the next target of moral crusaders?

Making tobacco illegal is one way to to get some people to stop the habit but the government likes huge taxes they get from tobacco. Another way to look at it is, pot is illegal but how may people do you know who smoke a reefer every now and then or everyday? If it wasn't for pot, the BC economy would be totally shot.

But once we start this morality ball rolling down the hill, where the heck is it going to stop? And in all reality, how are we going to pay for all this extra enforcement? We can't get enough police as it is now.

Healthcare needs to picked apart and all duplicated services (provincial and federal) need to be done away with. Why not set up walk-in-clinics where interns have to spend part of their rotations where people can go with a snotty nose, sore throat or a splinter in their fingers? Make it first come, first serve. If the interns feel it is more serious than a common cold, get them to send them on further to either emergency or a GP the following day.

I think we can all agree the healthcare system is flawed in Canada and I see a lot of yakking on whats wrong. Why dont we work on ideas to fix it? There are a lot of smart people on these boards be they left, right or centrist and we should be able to come up with some pretty damn good ideas. Lets get away from the blame game and start coming up with ideas on how to fix it. We all know what we like and don't like with healthcare. Lets find ways to expand on the ideas that work and fix the things that don't work.

[Bakunin]

Well we have to stop the healthcare cost and if possible it should be lower than now. Some people will have to pay for it. If smoking would be illegal, people would continue to smoke. If we say we dont pay for healthcare problem it cause, then people would think twice before starting smoking.

And im not a specialist but i think that for big smokers, its easy to identify. It think thats the big smokers that should be targeted.

[maplesyrup]

A lot of people take about the advantages of a decentralized system, i.e. from federal to provincial gov't.

But why stop there? Why not decentralize the employees?

Let's remove a lot of this abusive power that doctors have, and turn it over to the nursing profession, who often have a much better assessment of the situation.

This "DOCTOR IS GOD" mentality is the main reason for our financial health care woes and has got to end.

First and foremost: "PUT THE DOCTORS ON SALARY".

[playfullfellow]

And im not a specialist but i think that for big smokers, its easy to identify. It think thats the big smokers that should be targeted.

Ok, how do you define someone as being a heavy smoker? Anyone who smokes 2 packs a day or 1 a day? Lets say your plan works and we get rid of smoking. The only smokers left are the ones buying their smokes on the street corner. We then realize that people are still getting sick, still dropping dead of heart attacks. So what is our next target going to be? Let's pick on the fat people and their big mac love affair (this is just an analogy, I am not saying all fat people eat big macs). So we outlaw big macs, micky dee's goes belly up. Now we have lost another revenue source but people are still dying and getting sick. This is hwat we have to look at, no matter how hard you try, we will always have people dying and getting sick. We pick on smokers and fat people because they are easy targets. They are a visible target.

How come we don't look at the fact that more and more people eat out, eat boxed food that has been sitting on the shelves for several months, heat and eat foods? Our canned foods contain chemicals in them that no one can pronounce or even have the faintest clue as to what they are.

What about stress, how many people does that kill every year? I know of people who did everything right, never smoked, ate right and excercised plenty and they drop dead at around 50 of a heart attack. Why? Well they lead very stressful lives. They stressed about everything and it killed them.

Targetting certain life styles or habits won't work. Where do you stop? No, I think we need to get people to look a lot more at themselves and the lifestyles they lead. We also need to teach people how to cook a decent meal at home instead of hauling a roast out of a box and nuking it. How can that be safe?

[Bakunin]

someone who smoke evry day, thats what i think is a heavy smokers. I agree we can't start a crusade against evryone but the thing is that people need to be responsible if we want our social program to work.

this is not an easy things to do but if someone play with fire... he can't blame the others for his act. He shouldn't be protected by the society else he will never understand.

[kimmy]

Many places in Canada already have a shortage of doctors. And didn't somebody write last week about how Canadian doctors are being recruited to work in the US?

And yet putting doctors on salary seems like a good idea?

Canadians need to accept that doctors have rare and valuable skills that are very transferable. The system has to provide financial reward for doctors working in Canada, or else some of them will move on to other places.

Remember reduced waiting times? And improved medical access for Canadians? Encouraging doctors to go away is the wrong way to meet those goals.

As for cigarettes, the healthcare cost of smoking is one of the justifications for the high tax on them. I think each pack of cigarettes should have a dedicated portion of the tax sent directly to a healthcare fund, instead of going into general revenue.

-kimmy

[caesar]

be lower than now. Some people will have to pay for it. If smoking would be illegal, people would continue to smoke. If we say we dont pay for healthcare problem it cause, then people would think twice before starting smoking.

And im not a specialist but i think that for big smokers, its easy to identify. It think thats the big smokers that should be targeted.

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Smokers already do pay and pay with taxes on cigarettes with the justification that they add to healthcare.

Why one target; smoking is not the only cause of health problems. Smokers are just an easy target.

Heaven forbid we have the same campaign on drinking of alcohol. People who refuse to eat healthy food or over eat . People who like to partake of risky sports with expensive sports injuries; people with loose morals that spread venerale diseases and AIDS.

Despite the high numbers of people who have quit smoking; we have not seen any decrease in lung cancer.