What happened to that so desired reform?

[August1991]

1) Although I am ok with independence, I still have this little hope inside me that we could finally come to an understanding. I am looking at the Europeans and telling myself, damn, they are more than 20 different nations and languages and they managed to get along in a real confederation. Why can't we, we are just 2.

----

2) To prove my fellows you guys are too stubborn and understand only what you want to. It's your country, your constitution, your rules, your stuff. There are no places for us in it, unless we accept to be like them and play by their rules. Some federalists in Québec keep bullying us by saying that you will change. It doesn't take long to realise it is not even on the radar.

Benz, I know that it is difficult to explain this to Canadians. I have tried. But in your own way, you expressed well my heartfelt opinion. Edited April 22, 2011 by August1991

[g_bambino]

To have a say, they must not be outnumbered by the english.

This makes no sense. Who is "they"?

My definition is the same as everyone else on this planet.

Nope.

[g_bambino]

TROC would throw Quebec out!

My point, exactly.

[g_bambino]

I wonder, though, what it is you think Quebec needs this veto power for. What threat is it that the province faces from the nine others and the federal government?

Still waiting...

[Benz]

I don't see your point. The Quebequois have been recognized as a nation by parliment and Quebec has an unwritten veto already.

Ah oui? Can you explain me what is that veto? The recognition is only a motion. We want it written in the constitution so no one else will ever remove it and pretend again we are not a nation.

That is as good as it is going to get. Why do you need any more?

Because that is nothing. You can vote a motion to recognize the life on mars, it won't change anything.

The reason Canada does not is because it may be good for Quebec with lots of hydro power but it would be extremely onerous for Alberta and the Martimes. By refusing to acknowledge this you are being narrow minded and insular.

I don't get you. Are you talking about the equalization?

Still waiting...

Modifications we would want in the constitution now:

-Québec nation

-Québec veto on constitution

-Religion not above public rules

-Senate reform (at least senators chosen by the regions instead of by the pm)

-opt out of a federal program with full compensation

-decentralization as much as possible, at least no more doubling

-program to help minorities to defend their rights

I might forget some, those are the ones I remember the most.

Future modifications:

-Everything (I cannot think of a point where TROC can modifiy it without us and it would be ok), maybe there are some but, they are not the majority.

[Benz]

Benz, I know that it is difficult to explain this to Canadians. I have tried. But in your own way, you expressed well my heartfelt opinion.

The only reason why we never could find a solution is, the ROC has the option to say no without the consequences. Once Québec gets sovereign, a no from them conducts us to independence. Then and only then, we will be in good position to negociate and only then, we will see if they really want to be our partners in the canadian adventure or if they don't care about us at all. That's why I am sovereignist. Le respect, ça s'impose. Ça ne se demande pas.

[TimG]

We want it written in the constitution so no one else will ever remove it and pretend again we are not a nation.

You are demanding symbols over substance.

Seems to be you would be better off developing a constructive working relationship with the rest of the country instead of endlessly making demands that cannot be met.

Edited April 22, 2011 by TimG

[ToadBrother]

The only reason why we never could find a solution is, the ROC has the option to say no without the consequences. Once Québec gets sovereign, a no from them conducts us to independence. Then and only then, we will be in good position to negociate and only then, we will see if they really want to be our partners in the canadian adventure or if they don't care about us at all. That's why I am sovereignist. Le respect, ça s'impose. Ça ne se demande pas.

And wishes are fishes and so on and so forth.

[kimmy]

The only reason why we never could find a solution is, the ROC has the option to say no without the consequences. Once Québec gets sovereign, a no from them conducts us to independence. Then and only then, we will be in good position to negociate and only then, we will see if they really want to be our partners in the canadian adventure or if they don't care about us at all. That's why I am sovereignist. Le respect, ça s'impose. Ça ne se demande pas.

"Once Québec gets sovereign, a no from them conducts us to independence."

I'm confused... what definitions of "sovereign" and "independence" are being used? Are "sovereign" and "independent" not one and the same?

I'm also curious as to what negotiations you envision will happen once Quebec becomes independent. From where I sit, the only thing left to "negotiate" at that point becomes what share of the national debt you guys take with you.

-k

[RNG]

"Once Québec gets sovereign, a no from them conducts us to independence."

I'm confused... what definitions of "sovereign" and "independence" are being used? Are "sovereign" and "independent" not one and the same?

I'm also curious as to what negotiations you envision will happen once Quebec becomes independent. From where I sit, the only thing left to "negotiate" at that point becomes what share of the national debt you guys take with you.

-k

Sovereign and independant had better mean no foriegn aid from English Canada or I will grab a pitchfork.

[Wild Bill]

Do you think I am racist? Do you think I promote those ideas based on racism?

I think your ideas are racist. I do not know if you consciously realize that!

You say you are different. Why? Because you are French! That to TROC is the very definition of a racist justification.

You say TROC is different from Quebec. Why? Because they are Anglos! That too is a racist statement and also an inaccurate one. Much of TROC are NOT Anglos!

How else can one translate "pur laine"?

It doesn't matter if you disagree with me, or even if your arguments convince me that I am wrong. I am expressing a VERY popular view in TROC as to the real basis for the Quebec separatiste movement!

Hell, I first learned of this idea from some Montreal friends! I always considered them Quebecers and was surprised to hear that in the separatiste quarters they were not! Since some were descended from Italian immigrants and some from Irish in Labrador, they were not thought of as "French enough". All of them had been Quebecois for more than 4 generations! Again, not of the "pur laine".

Is it any wonder we outside Quebec who see and hear this going on begin to believe there are some sheets and pillow case hoods in the PeQuistes' closets, a la the KKK?

You should poke your nose outside of Quebec once in a while and get a feel for what other people are thinking. As I have said, if separatistes ever think they will end up in negotiations with TROC they should be realistic as to how their negotiating rivals view them.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Wild Bill

[Benz]

I think your ideas are racist. I do not know if you consciously realize that!

You say you are different. Why? Because you are French! That to TROC is the very definition of a racist justification.

Are the Polish racists because they think they are not Germans? Are the Irish racists because they think they are not Italians? Your definition of racism is wrong.

You say TROC is different from Quebec. Why? Because they are Anglos! That too is a racist statement and also an inaccurate one. Much of TROC are NOT Anglos!

They are what? Zulus? Being different is racist? No, racism is when you think you have superiority or the others are inferior based on genetic traits. Québécois do not pretend they are superiors. They say they have a different opinion of what Canada should be and how stuff should be done. That is not racism at all.

How else can one translate "pur laine"?

Pure laine is an expression some people use to identify those who are born in Québec and having roots from the former New France. It IS NOT used to discriminate or have any racism opinion toward those who do not fit that criteria. If one use it for that matter, it will be immediatly accused by other pures laines to be raciste and will be condemned. We don't and never said the pures laines people are superior or should have more individual rights than anyone else on earth.

It doesn't matter if you disagree with me, or even if your arguments convince me that I am wrong. I am expressing a VERY popular view in TROC as to the real basis for the Quebec separatiste movement!

I think it matters. Even more for you than for me. What kind of relations do you want with your fellow canadians in Québec. Do you want your neighboring accuse us of racism when we are not and give us the signal that it's not worth it for us to try having good relations with you? Our behavior toward you is important and so is yours toward us.

I will not build my argumentation on hatred and lies. If my friend says Will Bill is a racist Nazi anti-Québec and wish to gas us, I will defend you and reveals his lies. Even if my goal is to eventually seperate my land from your's. Why? Because if I allow that to happen, it can only leads us to something worst. Doing things for the wrong reasons do not end to the expected results. I would not support Québec sovereignty if the leaders would be racists. The consequences of what my lovely Québec could become would be far worst than the status quo.

Hell, I first learned of this idea from some Montreal friends! I always considered them Quebecers and was surprised to hear that in the separatiste quarters they were not! Since some were descended from Italian immigrants and some from Irish in Labrador, they were not thought of as "French enough". All of them had been Quebecois for more than 4 generations! Again, not of the "pur laine".

According to who? I beleive you and I, if we do exaustive searches, we can find racist people everywhere. Maybe I can find a french Québécois who hates anything that is not pure laine, just as well as you can find the very same on your side. Racists are everywhere. The important thing is, what is the official picture? Do the leaders are racists? Do the institutions are racists? Do the laws are racists? Do the measures to fight racism are strong and supported?

Look, you are accusing me of racism and I am not even close to be one. So how can I take seriously the examples you are saying. I can name you alot of public figures that are not pure laine at all and they feel very much they are accepted and considered true Québécois just as well as the "pures laines". The Québécois are not racists in general but, they are not perfect and yes, it is possible to find some racists in Québec, even among the sovereignists. But they are not on the frontline, they are not saying it out loud and when they do, others like me give them hell and make sure they understand it is not acceptable.

Is it any wonder we outside Quebec who see and hear this going on begin to believe there are some sheets and pillow case hoods in the PeQuistes' closets, a la the KKK?

How about, what you hear and what you see comes from not honest anglos that bulls--t you? The Quebec bashing is very popular in TROC, it's scary. Look, do you remember the Dawson's killing in Montréal? This english guy killed Anastasia and shoot at other kids in a english college (Dawson). It was a sick boy and he wrote why he did it. It was clear that this guy was not mentally fine. Despite the book and the explanations, the newspaper Globe And Mail wrote, the killer prolly did it because of the oppresive language laws. It is outrageous that they wrote that. It couldn't be more far from the truth. But this is the kind of sh!t you guys read regarding Quebec. It's no wonder why you think we are evil bad guys. You keep on being fed by extreme lies of all kind. When I read your news, I wonder if I am not Jason in Friday the 13.

Ask yourself, if we were that bad, wouldn't we do worst than what we are doing now? What is being said doesn't match with the reality and it is your responsibility to question and doubt what is being said. Long time ago, I thought the english people were fundamentally bad people, racists xenophobic, colonislists and so on. After I saw all the bs you guys read, I realised that if I was in your place, I would probably think the same you do. I now put water in my wine when it comes to judge you. Relativity. I am more tolerante toward all the préjugés(not sure how to translate, bias or prejudices)you guys have. However, in return, I expect you do the effort to question your sources and consider with an open mind what a real Québécois is telling you.

You know I am not racist and I haven't said anything racist. Being different and claiming to be respected as is, you know it is not racist at all. It's not like if I asked that different rules are applied to the english and french. I say the rules are the same to everyone, I just want both cultures can have a say on them. That is not racist.

You should poke your nose outside of Quebec once in a while and get a feel for what other people are thinking.

That's what I do for the last 15 years. It was very instructive. It helped me to understand why our both cultures are so at opposite ends. I also understand why what seems so normal and acceptable for us, is so itching you at the same time.

As I have said, if separatistes ever think they will end up in negotiations with TROC they should be realistic as to how their negotiating rivals view them.

We are pretty much aware of that. We are ready to opt for independance. We will offer it as a "just in case they change their mind". Because I beleive that once Québec says yes to sovereignty, it is possible the silent majority in english Canada will be very mad at the Quebec bashers and will rather say "look at what you've done!". Maybe it won't happen. I do not expect it to happen this way, but I will not shut the door and run my ass off Canada if the attitude changes.

That is what being sovereign is all about. Québec gets the control of its future, with or without TROC.

[Benz]

You are demanding symbols over substance.

Seems to be you would be better off developing a constructive working relationship with the rest of the country instead of endlessly making demands that cannot be met.

speaking of substance. Can you fill yours? I don't see any.

A motion is a symbol, a rule in the constitution is substance. I am offering a solution to the union that would end the desire for Québec to leave. If it is not constructive, what else would be?

Cannot be met? Says who? Why the Europeans can and YOU CAN'T. What makes you less capable than a european?

-----

I'm confused... what definitions of "sovereign" and "independence" are being used? Are "sovereign" and "independent" not one and the same?

Independant means, totally seperated. Sovereign means, in control of all your politics, whether it is independant or a union. As I often say, the Europeans choosed to build an union where all the members agree to the rules. They are sovereign because the union is according what they want and expect from it but, they are also commited to the engagement and must respect it. They follow and respect the rules of the union, so they are not totally independants, but the rules are what they agreed on.

Europeans are 20 different cultures and they managed to get along. In Canada it's impossible? That smells the former USSR. It's not because you can't, it's because you think you will be able to dominate the constitution and keep us as is forever.

[kimmy]

Independant means, totally seperated. Sovereign means, in control of all your politics, whether it is independant or a union. As I often say, the Europeans choosed to build an union where all the members agree to the rules. They are sovereign because the union is according what they want and expect from it but, they are also commited to the engagement and must respect it. They follow and respect the rules of the union, so they are not totally independants, but the rules are what they agreed on.

Europeans are 20 different cultures and they managed to get along. In Canada it's impossible? That smells the former USSR. It's not because you can't, it's because you think you will be able to dominate the constitution and keep us as is forever.

As I said before... once you guys decide you're independent, there's nothing left to negotiate. We're no longer "partners in the Canadian adventure" at that point. But you can join us in some really cool trade organizations, just like Mexico and the Dominicans.

-k

[ToadBrother]

As I said before... once you guys decide you're independent, there's nothing left to negotiate. We're no longer "partners in the Canadian adventure" at that point. But you can join us in some really cool trade organizations, just like Mexico and the Dominicans.

-k

Plenty to negotiate; in no small part whether big chunks of Montreal and all that land claimed by native peoples who live under the protection of the Crown will remain with Canada. If Quebec imagines for a moment that a declaration of independence means their sovereign state will have the same borders and territories as the Province of Quebec, they're fooling themselves.

[Wild Bill]

Are the Polish racists because they think they are not Germans? Are the Irish racists because they think they are not Italians? Your definition of racism is wrong.

They are what? Zulus? Being different is racist? No, racism is when you think you have superiority or the others are inferior based on genetic traits. Québécois do not pretend they are superiors. They say they have a different opinion of what Canada should be and how stuff should be done. That is not racism at all.

Pure laine is an expression some people use to identify those who are born in Québec and having roots from the former New France. It IS NOT used to discriminate or have any racism opinion toward those who do not fit that criteria. If one use it for that matter, it will be immediatly accused by other pures laines to be raciste and will be condemned. We don't and never said the pures laines people are superior or should have more individual rights than anyone else on earth.

I think it matters. Even more for you than for me. What kind of relations do you want with your fellow canadians in Québec. Do you want your neighboring accuse us of racism when we are not and give us the signal that it's not worth it for us to try having good relations with you? Our behavior toward you is important and so is yours toward us.

Context, mon ami. The Poles and the Irish did not define the political basis for having a country on their race.

You are right that Quebecers do not claim to be superior because of their race, just to be not the same as the rest of us and therefore entitled to their own country! You see, to TROC, that is some kind of bizarre tribalism. TROC is a mixture of many races and cultures. The idea of one alone being different and entitled to special consideration is just not valid.

Your definition of "pur laine" may well be correct. I grant that you live where the phrase was born, not me. Still, who cares? What's important is what enough people in TROC believe! This is politics and politics is about perception, not truth.

As far as the threat of having good relations with an independent Quebec, why would you assume that most of TROC would care? Ottawa would have some problems over highways and the St. Laurence Seaway but the average citizen in Red Deer or Owen Sound would likely not care a bit! He never thought about Quebec before and after separation it would become simply another foreign country. There would also be enough anger over the divorce that Quebec would not be a very well liked foreign country!

The popular mood in TROC would be to treat Quebec like Brazil, or Malta. Nothing special, just a blob

on the map that used to share the same colour as the rest of us!

No, the only thing the average TROC citizen would care about would be money! In his anger, if any ruling party in Ottawa was even PERCEIVED as favouring Quebec in any separation deal they would die in flames the next election! It would be hard to negotiate with someone who's afraid that if he even LOOKS like giving you anything he will lose his job.

You should understand M Benz that I myself am saying what I believe to be true and NOT what I personally would wish! I have some close Quebecois friends and I would sorely miss Bra D'or beer (mais PAS MAUDITZ!)

i just think that you have a very self-centered and Pollyanna view of how easy it would be for Quebec to separate and how good a relationship the two halves would enjoy afterwards. In my view, it would be a very bitter and long drawn out fight, with much hurt on both sides.

Who ever heard of a painless divorce?

Edited April 23, 2011 by Wild Bill

[Molly]

You know I am not racist and I haven't said anything racist. Being different and claiming to be respected as is, you know it is not racist at all. It's not like if I asked that different rules are applied to the english and french. I say the rules are the same to everyone, I just want both cultures can have a say on them. That is not racist.

Your ongoing use of the preposterously false dichotomy-- 'both' cultures -- completely dismissing so very much of Canada (me, for instance), and lumping anything that isn't French (the right kind of French') into a single pool of 'other' (aka Anglo)... that's pretty racist.

(You also seem to have an odd definition of 'the same'.)

[Mr.Canada]

The Tories are doing a great job at reforming Parliament however their is only limited things that can be done within the minority government framework. PM Harper is asking for a majority, it's our duty as Canadians to give him one. Lets rally behind our leader and give him what he needs to do the job and get it done.

[TimG]

Cannot be met? Says who? Why the Europeans can and YOU CAN'T. What makes you less capable than a european?

It is not a question of capability. It is a question of will. BTW Europe is turning into a centralized state. Members are finding that they have less local control over their lives than they did in the past as regulations are unified. Of course, they still get to pretend they are seperate countries but what good is that if your laws are constantly overriden by Brussels?

But you have evaded the issue. You are pushing for things that have no pratical significance. Many would say you don't actually care about them but you are simply using them as an excuse to justify your support for separation which would not go away even if your demands were fullfilled. But even if you are sincere the majority of people have no use for symbolic gestures that you want. Polls seem to show this is true inside Quebec and outside.

Edited April 23, 2011 by TimG

[Topaz]

The Tories are doing a great job at reforming Parliament however their is only limited things that can be done within the minority government framework. PM Harper is asking for a majority, it's our duty as Canadians to give him one. Lets rally behind our leader and give him what he needs to do the job and get it done.

I think ther maority of Canadians who don't support Harper,would give him a ticket back to Alberta and become Premier, since he like power. BTW, do you have a death with for Canada, majority no way.

[Benz]

Plenty to negotiate; in no small part whether big chunks of Montreal and all that land claimed by native peoples who live under the protection of the Crown will remain with Canada. If Quebec imagines for a moment that a declaration of independence means their sovereign state will have the same borders and territories as the Province of Quebec, they're fooling themselves.

What you gonna do? Declare war on us? Do it so the whole world see your true colors and and understand why we wanted to leave.

You live in the delusion that you own the natives and they wish to be owned by you. It is far from the reality.

-----

Your ongoing use of the preposterously false dichotomy-- 'both' cultures -- completely dismissing so very much of Canada (me, for instance), and lumping anything that isn't French (the right kind of French') into a single pool of 'other' (aka Anglo)... that's pretty racist.

It is not what I said at all. Trying to picture me as an evil racist twisted mind with your interpretations won't make any good. I suggest you take a step back and take a more objective and less emotional approach. You are not making any point this way.

(You also seem to have an odd definition of 'the same'.)

If you say so. I don't find odd to say the rules shall be the same to everyone. If you do, good for you.

[Molly]

It is not what I said at all. Trying to picture me as an evil racist twisted mind with your interpretations won't make any good. I suggest you take a step back and take a more objective and less emotional approach. You are not making any point this way.

Okay. So I misinterpreted. You said that my ancestors oppressed the french. How can that be when, where my ancestors came from, there were no french to oppress? Why would you make such an accusation if you recognize that the people you are addressing have many different histories and cultures?

I took your reference to 'both' as a direct reference to 'just like you' and 'not just like you'. How should I have taken it?

[TimG]

What you gonna do? Declare war on us? Do it so the whole world see your true colors and and understand why we wanted to leave.

What are you going to do to stop the natives from leaving? Declare war on them? You want to make Oka and Ipperwash look like a Sunday picnic?

The natives will look after their own interests. They might join an independent Quebec but only after they have exacted some major consessions from the Quebec government. However, I doubt that - especially if seperatists refuse to acknowledge that they have a right to go if they want to.

[Benz]

Context, mon ami. The Poles and the Irish did not define the political basis for having a country on their race.

Neither do we. The notion of Québec nation is based on the culture, if you adopt the culture, you become a Québécois.

You are right that Quebecers do not claim to be superior because of their race, just to be not the same as the rest of us and therefore entitled to their own country! You see, to TROC, that is some kind of bizarre tribalism.

Therefore, you must question yourself. If we are not like you, we are tribal. Then the rest of the world is doing tribalism. This is how you look man.

TROC is a mixture of many races and cultures. The idea of one alone being different and entitled to special consideration is just not valid.

At some point, you gonna have to look something else than your belly button. You are not alone on this earth. Explain me what is wrong with the european approach. Also, all the new immigrants are coming here because they choosed this country. It is normal that they have to assimilate to the country that accepted them. The french canadians are founders as well as the english canadian. Considering the french like immigrants that have to be flooded by the majority, it is not valid.

Your definition of "pur laine" may well be correct. I grant that you live where the phrase was born, not me. Still, who cares?

You brought it up.

What's important is what enough people in TROC believe! This is politics and politics is about perception, not truth.

Don't you think you can make the difference? What kind of input you want the french to receive from your side. That only french bashers speak out loud?

As far as the threat of having good relations with an independent Quebec, why would you assume that most of TROC would care? Ottawa would have some problems over highways and the St. Laurence Seaway but the average citizen in Red Deer or Owen Sound would likely not care a bit!

I don't pretend I can predict the future.

He never thought about Quebec before and after separation it would become simply another foreign country. There would also be enough anger over the divorce that Quebec would not be a very well liked foreign country!

I doubt very much we can put everyone in the same bag. Some will say good riddence, others may have another opinion. I think it is useless to speculate too much.

The popular mood in TROC would be to treat Quebec like Brazil, or Malta. Nothing special, just a blob

on the map that used to share the same colour as the rest of us!

Fine with me.

No, the only thing the average TROC citizen would care about would be money! In his anger, if any ruling party in Ottawa was even PERCEIVED as favouring Quebec in any separation deal they would die in flames the next election! It would be hard to negotiate with someone who's afraid that if he even LOOKS like giving you anything he will lose his job.

In the case of no union scenario, that is for sure. However, it is not a matter of giving and generosity. What belongs to who.

You should understand M Benz that I myself am saying what I believe to be true and NOT what I personally would wish! I have some close Quebecois friends and I would sorely miss Bra D'or beer (mais PAS MAUDITZ!)

Miss? Unless you build a wall of shame, nothing will change. You will be able to come visit your friends just as well as you can go the the states.

i just think that you have a very self-centered and Pollyanna view of how easy it would be for Quebec to separate and how good a relationship the two halves would enjoy afterwards. In my view, it would be a very bitter and long drawn out fight, with much hurt on both sides.

English canada might be bitter for a little while. However, you will have to think of the future. Do you want to entertain anger just because the Québécois wants to be a country? Is it what you want the world to see from you? The topic has been on the agenda for so long, it can also be for many a simple "ah well, let's move on something else at last".

Who ever heard of a painless divorce?

I do. My parents for example. I do not pretend it will be easy. But keep mind something. For once, TROC will not be able to get away by saying no and Québec to be left alone. Negociations will have to take place.

You will not be able to pretend you didn't know. You have been warned several times for decades. I am also doing it right now. Québec will get sovereign with or without Canada.

[Mr.Canada]

I think ther maority of Canadians who don't support Harper,would give him a ticket back to Alberta and become Premier, since he like power. BTW, do you have a death with for Canada, majority no way.

I love this country and right now a Tory majority is what Canada needs. If it comes back a Tory minority the three losers will form a coalition and rule Canada. The party that wishes to break Canada apart will be sitting in government. That is just insane.

If that happens though the right wing of the Liberal party will leave the Liberal Party immediately and defect to the Tories.

The following election will result in a massive Tory majority and the Liberals will cease to be a party at all. So in a way I hope it happens.