harper health care savior...

[maplesyrup]

Oh our lovely health care system.  I know a girl in her early 20s just diagnosed with breast cancer.  But she can't get in for the surgery till October.  So she has a choice.  She can wait and likely die.  Or she can take out a loan and go to the US and get in right away.    Meanwhile naive canadians are working hard to protect our great system from the evils of conservatives who want to allow for people to pay and save themselves.

So if one is poor one deserves to die.

Right wing policy cuts? How long have we had a liberal federal government? How long have you had liberal and NDP governments in BC?

Oh yea right, the BC Liberals are left wing. Why bother debating with comments like that?

[maplesyrup]

Romanow: Get health acts together

Thank goodness for Romanow.

Canadians are really getting angry with lying politicians, especially those that are lying about their hidden agendas on health care. Our politicians should have the balls to admit they want to privatize health care but they won't, because they would turfed out of office so quick it would make your head spin.

Canadians do not want a parallel private health care system that would drain the public system of all the best resources, and are quite willing to pay for a sound public system.

What Canadians won't stand for is an unfair system, where the rich go to the front of the line.

[Big Blue Machine]

The health care system isn't in that much trouble. Its the media that says there is a huge problem

[maplesyrup]

All media of this sort, including most of the ones in Canada are public relations departments for transnationals and corporate interests, just as politicians are the spokesmen for the same. The stockholders of media, commerce and defence industrial complexes are interchangeable and one in the same in many respects.

-from another discussion board but whose premise I basically agree with.

[JWayne625]

I know of only what goes on in healthcare in New Brunswick. Our PC Premier, Bernard Lord just released his plan for healthcare. It was written by Fujitsu Consulting Corporation, with absolutely no input from medical professionals. In fact not only were they not welcome at the planning table, they were not even allowed in the room. In small little New Brunswick we have 8 Healthcare Corporations, all with their own staff of bureaucrats from a CEO on down. They have loaded the hospitals with beancounters, who now outnumber medical personnel. Because of this there is little wonder the waiting times for procedures are increasing. They have studied healthcare to death in this Province and still waiting times increase. We need medical personnel in our healthcare facilities, not beancounters.

Last year Ottawa gave additional funds to the Province's specifically for medical diagnostic equipment and the Health Region in which I live spent the money on Ride-on Lawn Mowers, photocopiers, and paper-shredders. When this came to light the expenditure was defended by the Premier, stating that they needed this equipment to be replaced.

Now we have this same Premier, and in fact all of the Premier's wanting Ottawa to just give them the money and let them decide where it should be spent. If that were to happen New Brunswick, we just may have the best kept hospital grounds in Canada. Maybe they could have this judged by the Communities In Bloom Committee. I hope one thing, that Ottawa continues to demand accountability for healthcare dollars, something none of the Premier's seem to want.

[caesar]

The health care system isn't in that much trouble. Its the media that says there is a huge problem

Sorry but you are very wrong. What province are you from. My son injured his knee in a skiing accident. It took 4 months to get to see the specialist; who cannot do anything until he sees a MRI which only the specialist can order. (I think it was a waste of time to send him to a specialist without the MRI in hand) The MRI will take 8 to 9 months to obtain. He paid 600 dollars and got it in a week. That would mean over a year before treatment could be started. Not good if one had to work on his feet; plus the condition would probably deteriorate due to lack of treatment. That is a minor problem but could prove expensive if you were unable to work. Other people wait months for cancer treatment while the tumour grows. Others die waiting for a by pass for heart problems. Not a problem, you say? Maybe if you are young and healthy and stay away from any sports injuries; and are darn lucky.

[Cartman]

Caesar...that is just incredible and sad. My father has to leave the home town we have lived in for decades b/c the right-wing Liberal cutbacks have closed the only health care facility in the area. As a (healthy) senior, he obviously needs emergency access to health care. The Liberals seem to disagree. I guess this solves the problem they had about keeping a doctor in town though.

I hope one thing, that Ottawa continues to demand accountability for healthcare dollars, something none of the Premier's seem to want.

I agree entirely.

[Slavik44]

The health care system isn't in that much trouble. Its the media that says there is a huge problem

Liberal Leader Dr. Jon Gerrard says that a routine Freedom of Information request has revealed that between 1998 and December 2003, 35 people in Manitoba have died while on waiting lists for sleep disorders.

Under Canada's national health insurance system, 177,000 people are waiting for surgical procedures.

The average wait to see an eye specialist in Prince Edward Island is six months - and it takes another six months on the average to be treated

It takes only a little more than two weeks to see an ear, nose and throat specialist in Newfoundland - but another six months to be treated

More people in Canada die of cardiovascular disease than of any other single cause. But hospitals have separate budgets for "conventional illness" and for high-cost procedures such as cardiac by-pass. The result has been lengthy waiting lists for such surgery, often as long as a year or more.

Right now you have me very worried, do i dare ask you what you would consider trouble to be, becuase i would consider that trouble.

[maplesyrup]

I am curious about this national pharmacare issue the premiers have raised.

First of all there I believe there is already is some sort of a subsidy for low income people for their drugs.

So why would the federal government say no to it. They could set it up and provide only the amount of money that is available, they wouldn't have to necessarily increase it right away, would they?

But more importantly, who is PM Martin to say NO. He doesn't have a majority government. Does he not have to consult with the other parties and get support for his position before he shoots his mouth off like that?

[willy]

Maplesyrup, here is the first issue you can agree with Harper on. He would like a national pharmacare program.

He thinks that the feds are in the best position to negotiate drug prices by buying in bulk.

Woo, the NDP and the Conservatives on common ground.

[maplesyrup]

Now that's a scary thought.

Actualy it seems to PM Martin is setting the groundwork up for a confrontation with Canada's premiers, otherwise he would consider this national pharamcare idea.

Now if we could only get them to restore eye examinations coverage, and get them going on the beginning of a national dental care program.

Don't get me wrong. I think there has to be some incentive for folks to earn money. It is just that the outrageous gap between what the corporate elite earn, and what the people on minimum wage get has grown way too large It is time to substantially shrink it. BTW I have seen the statistics and these relativley recent vast gaps are obscene.

[I miss Reagan]

I love that "right-wing liberal cutbacks". Guess what happens when you blow a billion on a useless gun registry? Guess what happens when you decide we need a billion dollar museum in Ottawa dedicated to government? Guess what happens when you give millions to your liberal advertising friends? Guess what happens when you spend $30 a year for every man woman and child on a media propeganda machine(CBC)?

You don't have enough money for health care!!! wake up! People are dying waiting in line. But I guess I should look at the bright side, at least farmers aren't roming the streets with unregistered weapons.

[maplesyrup]

The police don't think it is a useless gun registry.

I thought the museum plans were cancelled.

I think some people have been charged in relation to Adscam, have they not? If not, some have at least lost their jobs, and the judicial inquiry is just about to begin.

Where would we be without Don Cherry, eh?

Seriously though, have you ever read the CBC's mandate?

How come you don't suggest we cancel our new helecopters purchase? That would save money!

[Guest eureka]

Before I presume to enter the discussion, I would refer participants to a columnist in today's Toronto Star.

The article is: "Doctor's orders: Grain of salt." by Carol Goar.It contains much information that would dispel fears of unsustainability. It with other sources and facts, would rout those who favour further private interference in the lives and health of real people.

[maplesyrup]

Link to above

eureka....this is definitely a great article and puts to rest a lot of the myths being spun out there by these right wing think tanks who represent companies that are just itching to get their hands on the money being generated by Canada's health care system.

It's true, he acknowledges, that annual health-care expenditures increased by $50 billion between 1993 and 2003. But that figure loses much of its shock value when it is put in context.

Over the decade, total health spending rose from $71.5 billion to $121.4 billion, an increase of 69.8 per cent. But at the same time, the value of all goods and services produced by Canadians rose from $727 billion to $1.2 trillion, an increase of 66.8 per cent.

That puts the lie to claims that the country's health bill is rapidly outstripping its ability to pay, Scott says. In 1993, Canada spent 9.82 cents out of every dollar of economic output on health care. A decade later, it spent 9.99 cents per dollar.

The story gets more interesting when he breaks down the nation's health bill — which includes everything from hospital construction to over-the-counter cold remedies — into its component parts. It turns out that the expenditures controlled by governments are rising much more slowly than those in the private sector.

Hospitals and physician services, which fall almost entirely within the public domain, increased by 36.1 per cent and 49 per cent, respectively. Dental care and prescription drugs, most of which are delivered outside of medicare, went up by 83.3 per cent and 142.4 per cent, respectively.

"This should provide a note of caution to those who would advocate a greater role for the private sector in personal health care," Scott says.

[willy]

Great then maplesyrup, all we have to do is raise taxes 60% and we can pay for all the improvements we need in healthcare. Wait if I factor all the taxes I pay now into the equation, I already pay 50% of my income in taxes. What should I pay for my housing with, my food or transportation?

I guess it will all be fine if only the government paid for:

Housing

Food

Education

Dental

Medical

Roads

Policing

Ect.

Wait if I pay more taxes just for health care, where will the money come from for all these other government programs. Hey they are government, they can always print more money.(i.e. Brazil, Argintina) When inflation goes up in the 1000% maybe the IMF will help us out. Oh wait they might have conditions. The last time they did that the countries had to privatize most of the state run organizations, even water.

Hey we could always just prioritize and be prudent. I like socialism, it is a wonderful idea, but the math never balances.

[maplesyrup]

Willy.......I have no idea what you are talking about.

There is not a shred of evidence anywhere which shows it is cheaper to go the private route in health care. Lets stop believing in all the HMOs' propaganda and start dealing in facts.

That puts the lie to claims that the country's health bill is rapidly outstripping its ability to pay, Scott says. In 1993, Canada spent 9.82 cents out of every dollar of economic output on health care. A decade later, it spent 9.99 cents per dollar.

If I understand Scott's analysis, and he appears to have quite sound credentials, he is suggesting it is not primarily a money problem, but more of a management problem.

[willy]

maplesyrup, I know you have no idea what I am talking about.

You clearly stated that we are only spending 2% more than inflation and inflation was 68% and in health spending 70%. In real dollars then we just need more money. That was the argument as the current resources are causing great line ups and limiting services.

Unless health care is actually more expensive today than it was 10 years ago. That would mean we have not kept pace with real costs. i.e. new procedures, expensive medicines, new equipment, higher labour costs. We may be getting less for more money.

Scott's analysis is simplistic and misleading. If he has sound credentials, he would know that.

[maplesyrup]

So the premiers have walked out on a meeting with Ottawa over health care. All the more reason to give serios consideration to abolishing the provinces. Who needs these clowns anyways?

[maplesyrup]

Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams said that waiting lists are “a huge problem” that will be a problem “forever,”

What a loser mentality for a Canadian leader!

90% of Canadians don't believe these health care talks will solve the serious issues we are facing in health care. That just about sums up what Canadians think of their provincial premiers - useless.

[Guest eureka]

A few facts that might be worth consideration are:

In the ranking of quality of the health care system, Canada ranks 13th. in the world - not too bad. However, France, which ranks 3ed. spends about the same proportion of revenues as Canada.

The 1 & 2 countris in the ranking are Switzerland. and Sweden. Switzerland is a high spending country while Sweden is low.

Perhaps we should be asking what it is that Sweden does right to make a success of its public system - and France not why Switzerland with a greater degree of private medicine has to spend so much more for the same results.

The USA is also a high spending country with a system that ranks several notches lower than Canada - I don't recall the actual position.

The lesson is that public health systemc are always less expensive and can be as efficient as the highest spending private systems. Take the political posturing out of this and we could get a public system that is both inexpensivem relatively, and efficient.

Oh! Harper. In 1988, he was the principal author of the Reform Party caucus statement on health. In it he called for different levels of access for the wealthy, the middle classes and the welfare recipients. In other words, Means Tested access a la USA with its many millions who have no access other than emergency.

[August1991]

Oh! Harper. In 1988, he was the principal author of the Reform Party caucus statement on health. In it he called for different levels of access for the wealthy, the middle classes and the welfare recipients.

I think that is precisely what Sweden and France do.

I believe that the gains from public health care come from the universal insurance aspect. IMV, the government should be involved in the insurance scheme, but that's all.

I agree with the basic facts you have laid out, eureka.

[maplesyrup]

Doubts Cast on Common Prostate Cancer Test

Maybe this is part of the problem with health care - perhaps we are just being sold a bill of goods concerning all these new high technological solutions.

If you are an male over 50, chances are you have had a PSA test. Is everyone going to be reimbursed now that it is apparent these tests are a scam and ineffective? :angry:

This though is a good example what happens when you privatize health care!

[maplesyrup]

Canada PM scolded by aunt, apologizes for blasphemy

Gee, I wonder what Doer said that was so significant!

[maplesyrup]

Supplementary estimates

How many times have we seen this movie before?

Do you think the federales have the post meeting wrap-up prepared even before the health care conference began?