Ontario Teachers Unions vs. PC Leader

[Shady]

A healthy and professionally staffed education system is the cornerstone to a healthy society and Ontario teachers are at the top of the charts in this regard, IMO.

Nobody's saying they can't be healthy and professionally staffed. But a racket is still a racket.

[Scotty]

A healthy and professionally staffed education system is the cornerstone to a healthy society and Ontario teachers are at the top of the charts in this regard, IMO.

And sometimes, some of our high school graduates are even able to read!

They mostly don't know any history, and kind of suck at geography, and, well, science, but they can do math pretty well... as long as they have their calculators.

Yessir! What a bang-up job our teachers are doing!

Edited April 8, 2011 by Scotty

[Shwa]

And sometimes, some of our high school graduates are even able to read!

They mostly don't know any history, and kind of suck at geography, and, well, science, but they can do math pretty well... as long as they have their calculators.

Yessir! What a bang-up job our teachers are doing!

Yeah, and they never learned to walk to school barefoot in the snow, 5 feet deep, uphill, both ways. And we liked, we loved it! Hallelujah

Edited April 9, 2011 by Shwa

[Scotty]

Yeah, and they never learned to walk to school barefoot in the snow, 5 feet deep, uphill, both ways. And we liked, we loved it! Hallelujah

I think you're probably older than me, and you're crabbier too, just about different stuff!

All I'm saying is you judge worker by the product they put out. Was everyone lauding how great Ford workers were when their cars were blowing up on the highways? So what exactly is great about teachers given they're end product is an ignorant schmuck who's often barely literate enough to read the instructions on the anti-depressants he's taking?

Edited April 9, 2011 by Scotty

[Shwa]

I think you're probably older than me, and you're crabbier too, just about different stuff!

All I'm saying is you judge worker by the product they put out. Was everyone lauding how great Ford workers were when their cars were blowing up on the highways? So what exactly is great about teachers given they're end product is an ignorant schmuck who's often barely literate enough to read the instructions on the anti-depressants he's taking?

Really Scotty, you think the average "end product" of our education system is an ignorant schmuck?

[Bonam]

Really Scotty, you think the average "end product" of our education system is an ignorant schmuck?

The average end product of our K-12 education system is the average Canadian 18 year old.

[bloodyminded]

I think you're probably older than me, and you're crabbier too, just about different stuff!

All I'm saying is you judge worker by the product they put out. Was everyone lauding how great Ford workers were when their cars were blowing up on the highways? So what exactly is great about teachers given they're end product is an ignorant schmuck who's often barely literate enough to read the instructions on the anti-depressants he's taking?

As someone with three freshly-adult children (21, 21, and 23), and whose home was Grand Central for the continual comings and goings of innumerable teenagers for five years, my personal experience is that they are a profoundly sharp and relatively worldy-wise demographic.

Is it blasphemy to wonder if perhaps (for example) the "Greatest Generation" weren't, comparatively, drooling morons at 18 in comparison to the current crop? Because I suspect that's the case.

[August1991]

As someone with three freshly-adult children (21, 21, and 23), and whose home was Grand Central for the continual comings and goings of innumerable teenagers for five years, my personal experience is that they are a profoundly sharp and relatively worldy-wise demographic.

Is it blasphemy to wonder if perhaps (for example) the "Greatest Generation" weren't, comparatively, drooling morons at 18 in comparison to the current crop? Because I suspect that's the case.

The question, BM, is how much the education system explains your admittedly biased and anecdotal observation. (We are, after all, talking about your kids and parents are notoriously subjective about this.)

The fact is that many kids today never finish high school. There are large discrepancies in kids' knowledge which suggests that they learn as much if not more outside the classroom as they do in it.

Think about it. We put kids in a room for roughly 1200 hours a year for about 12 years in front of a person who is largely not accountable and chosen based solely on seniority. It's a crazy, hit and miss system that makes no sense.

If you are interested in this, I strongly recommend this NPR podcast.

Edited April 9, 2011 by August1991

[Michael Hardner]

Think about it. We put kids in a room for roughly 1200 hours a year for about 12 years in front of a person who is largely not accountable and chosen based solely on seniority. It's a crazy, hit and miss system that makes no sense.

Not true. People are interviewed for positions and of course there are regular reviews for performance.

[Handsome Rob]

Not true. People are interviewed for positions and of course there are regular reviews for performance.

My experiences do not match. I'm 10 years out of a teacher retirement school, a quiet moderately wealthy community in suburbia where teachers go to enjoy the golf course. In 12 years of schooling, about 6 that I remember clearly, I had 5 teachers that cared, above and beyond, really par excellence. Another dozen or so that educated me, and the rest that couldn't care less. VHS into the TV and out for a stroll.

I don't entirely blame the teachers of course, the majority of the student body didn't care either, and both elementary and secondary school consistently rank in the bottom half of the provincial rankings.

As far as performance reviews and being held accountable, the only time I have ever seen this is when somebody is charged with sexually based offenses. (3 of them at my HS in the last 10 years, plus one more unfounded that resulted in a guilty verdict nonetheless) It matters not what something is designed to do or what it appears to do, it matters what it does.

I don't know too much as far as the ever happening battles between schools and the provincial government, but one thing that has jumped out:

The teachers union/School board (Most of those who made a career out of it go on to try and run for the NDP locally) flat out refuses to give an inch of ground, and the government responds in kind. The thing that makes the school board/teachers union look really bad is that there position has not changed through successive Liberal/NDP/Liberal (Conservative) governments. It takes on the appearance of, "It will never be enough." Kind of hard not to assign fault at that.

The part that makes me really sad is that for every terrible teacher two years from retirement, their are twenty 25 year old's itching to make a difference, that have to move to Timbuktu for a chance at a job.

Anecdotal as heck, I'll freely admit. But to call the situation an unfounded success I think is a bit much.

[Michael Hardner]

My experiences do not match. I'm 10 years out of a teacher retirement school, a quiet moderately wealthy community in suburbia where teachers go to enjoy the golf course. In 12 years of schooling, about 6 that I remember clearly, I had 5 teachers that cared, above and beyond, really par excellence. Another dozen or so that educated me, and the rest that couldn't care less. VHS into the TV and out for a stroll.

What is a teacher retirement school ? Why bring up the golf course ?

As far as performance reviews and being held accountable, the only time I have ever seen this is when somebody is charged with sexually based offenses. (3 of them at my HS in the last 10 years, plus one more unfounded that resulted in a guilty verdict nonetheless) It matters not what something is designed to do or what it appears to do, it matters what it does.

Why would you ever see this unless you worked in the system ?

I don't know too much as far as the ever happening battles between schools and the provincial government, but one thing that has jumped out:

The teachers union/School board (Most of those who made a career out of it go on to try and run for the NDP locally) flat out refuses to give an inch of ground, and the government responds in kind. The thing that makes the school board/teachers union look really bad is that there position has not changed through successive Liberal/NDP/Liberal (Conservative) governments. It takes on the appearance of, "It will never be enough." Kind of hard not to assign fault at that.

What position are you talking about ?

The part that makes me really sad is that for every terrible teacher two years from retirement, their are twenty 25 year old's itching to make a difference, that have to move to Timbuktu for a chance at a job.

I do think you're right. It's tough, though, because teaching also grinds people down. It's a hard job. Should people be thrown on the scrap heap after they're no longer as useful as a 25 year old ?

I guess they don't think that idea is fair. I wouldn't either.

Anecdotal as heck, I'll freely admit. But to call the situation an unfounded success I think is a bit much.

If you admit that it's anecdotal, then I'll listen and see what's in there that we can make out of it.

I did say it was in my opinion, from my knowledge of those who keep the system going.

I do also think that the school boards are unable to manage anything. They're kind of a breed of minor politician, topped up with a good degree of disorganizational skills.

There should be a way to keep teachers fresh and contributing through their careers, while also allowing for a system that doesn't punish people for aging. Like so many institutional relationships in our society - especially management/labour relationships - I think that a pilot project for a new start is the way to go: create the NEW and let the OLD wither away.

Old systems evolve as an accumulation of solutions to past problems. Eventually the system becomes so complex that it is taken over by specialists who act as proxies for others. This is how these systems evolve.

Eventually, the system becomes completely inflexible and it starts to look worn and old. The political debate revolves around destroying it entirely, or keeping it absolutely intact. Voters have utter impatience for longstanding/complex problems and no attention span so they eventually drift to the "blow it up and start over" option.

Is that the better option ? I would like to see more dialogue, and transitioning past our current problem set into the future. With politics as a TV sport, it doesn't seem to be possible.

[Michael Hardner]

By the way, although anecdotes aren't really proof of anything, the longevity and pervasiveness of anecdotes are the best indicators of public perception of problems, and public perception is often THE problem.

[Handsome Rob]

What is a teacher retirement school ? Why bring up the golf course ?

New "Old" teachers showing up for green pastures. Most other teachers out the door by 1445 to hit the course. A retirement school I mean a place to finish ones career. Lacking the typical problems of the city like teen-gangs, poverty in the student body & such.

Why would you ever see this unless you worked in the system ?

Well when a teacher shows up in court, is found guilty and gets fired, it's kind of hard not to notice. Have not seen a teacher removed for any other reason. There may be discipline and write-ups going on behind the scenes, but it has never been followed through to the end. These days I know a couple of teachers there in the community who say much the same thing. Doesn't speak for the whole system, but an impression.

What position are you talking about ?

Funding, class sizes, capital grants, etc, etc. There is no negotiation. One side cuts/doesn't raise enough, other side complains forever.

I do think you're right. It's tough, though, because teaching also grinds people down. It's a hard job. Should people be thrown on the scrap heap after they're no longer as useful as a 25 year old ?

I guess they don't think that idea is fair. I wouldn't either.

Perhaps there are unexplored alternatives? I don't think it's fair to students to be punished for 10 years of previous 'grinding down' that they had nothing to do with.

Perhaps "approaching expiry date" teachers can move on to writing curriculum, working in administrative tasks or a whole slew of other ideas? Has anything been explored beyond status quo?

If you admit that it's anecdotal, then I'll listen and see what's in there that we can make out of it.

I did say it was in my opinion, from my knowledge of those who keep the system going.

I do also think that the school boards are unable to manage anything. They're kind of a breed of minor politician, topped up with a good degree of disorganizational skills.

There should be a way to keep teachers fresh and contributing through their careers, while also allowing for a system that doesn't punish people for aging. Like so many institutional relationships in our society - especially management/labour relationships - I think that a pilot project for a new start is the way to go: create the NEW and let the OLD wither away.

Old systems evolve as an accumulation of solutions to past problems. Eventually the system becomes so complex that it is taken over by specialists who act as proxies for others. This is how these systems evolve.

Eventually, the system becomes completely inflexible and it starts to look worn and old. The political debate revolves around destroying it entirely, or keeping it absolutely intact. Voters have utter impatience for longstanding/complex problems and no attention span so they eventually drift to the "blow it up and start over" option.

Is that the better option ? I would like to see more dialogue, and transitioning past our current problem set into the future. With politics as a TV sport, it doesn't seem to be possible.

I totally agree. It's not necessarily anybody's "Fault" but we can't make room for complacency.

[Michael Hardner]

Well when a teacher shows up in court, is found guilty and gets fired, it's kind of hard not to notice. Have not seen a teacher removed for any other reason. There may be discipline and write-ups going on behind the scenes, but it has never been followed through to the end. These days I know a couple of teachers there in the community who say much the same thing. Doesn't speak for the whole system, but an impression.

What about performance reviews ?

Funding, class sizes, capital grants, etc, etc. There is no negotiation. One side cuts/doesn't raise enough, other side complains forever.

There's obviously some negotiation that happens. Your comment speaks more to the transparency of that, I think.

Perhaps there are unexplored alternatives? I don't think it's fair to students to be punished for 10 years of previous 'grinding down' that they had nothing to do with.

Perhaps "approaching expiry date" teachers can move on to writing curriculum, working in administrative tasks or a whole slew of other ideas? Has anything been explored beyond status quo?

Good question. If you accept the idea that teachers won't put up with being fired for being 50, I think there's a lot we can talk about.

I totally agree. It's not necessarily anybody's "Fault" but we can't make room for complacency.

Like I said, the system devolves into a complex stasis and the arguments and finger pointing become useless. Liberals and Conservative need to put together responsible parties to negotiate reform, generally.

[bloodyminded]

The question, BM, is how much the education system explains your admittedly biased and anecdotal observation. (We are, after all, talking about your kids and parents are notoriously subjective about this.)

Of course it's biased and anecdotal. It was offered as a response to a wholly impressionistic, evidence-free series of complaints about how moronic young people are, effectively a "kids these days!" argument, and so is therefore perfectly respectable and a propos to the topic.

The only qualititative difference between the two camps here is that mine doesn't take the ancient, conventional tack, summoned every generation since (at least) Socrates, about the wayward state of contemporary youth in comparison to our much smarter generation.

Edited April 9, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Scotty]

Really Scotty, you think the average "end product" of our education system is an ignorant schmuck?

In the CCL's report, "Post-Secondary Education in Canada 2008-2009," 20 per cent of university graduates in 2006 were below Level 3 on the prose literary scale (see page 63 for the stats). A Level 3 is considered the minimum literacy level necessary for coping in our society. Below Level 3 means struggling to understand even the simplest text.

And the numbers are expected to get even worse.

University Graduates Who Can't Read

Nearly 15 per cent of Canadians can't understand the writing on simple medicine labels such as on an Aspirin bottle, a failing that could seriously limit the ability of a parent, for example, to determine the dangers for a child.

An additional 27 per cent can't figure out simple information like the warnings on a hazardous materials sheet, the kinds of warning that set out workplace dangers such as risks to the eyes and skin.

In total, 42 per cent of Canadians are semi-illiterate. The proportion is even worse for those in middle age. And even when new immigrants are excluded, the numbers remains pretty much the same.

Canada's Shame

[Michael Hardner]

Scotty - I went to that link:

This part was telling:

Because approximately 25% of incoming students, most of whom are from Ontario high schools, are not able to pass the test at Waterloo.

The English Language Proficiency Examination (ELPE) at Waterloo requires students to write a 300- to 500-word essay in 50 minutes. This means a four- to five-paragraph essay in response to a choice of topics. Depending on which program you're in, you need a minimum grade of 60-65% to pass.

But failing the test doesn't necessarily mean failing university. Like many schools today, the University of Waterloo offers a lot of support for those students who don't pass the test. On the school's website, it states: "You are not alone. There are options for you."

Those options - which are available to any student struggling with literacy skills - include free writing clinics and workshops.

Yes, we're now playing catch-up at the university level.

The funny thing is that I failed the ELPE at Waterloo. Have I learned to read and write since then ? No. The problem was that I was never properly taught the essay form, nor how to build an argument in my high school English classes.

As such, my ELPE answer was a flowery but formless essay causing me to fail. Is this 'struggling with literacy skills' ? I suppose it is.

Here's Level 3:

They can read well but may have problems with more complex tasks. This level is considered by many countries to be the minimum for successful participation in society.

I found it difficult to find examples of level 3 tests - this may be one - but it's not super easy. And this says that the Canadian average is just below level 3.

I would be interested in a comparative test of grads between nations, over time.

[mikedavid00]

In the CCL's report, "Post-Secondary Education in Canada 2008-2009," 20 per cent of university graduates in 2006 were below Level 3 on the prose literary scale (see page 63 for the stats).

And I can assure you those 20% are immigrants.

If you think that is bad you should see them in the workplace. A train wreck.

[Scotty]

The funny thing is that I failed the ELPE at Waterloo. Have I learned to read and write since then ? No. The problem was that I was never properly taught the essay form, nor how to build an argument in my high school English classes.

That might have been YOUR problem, but I've seen and heard much worse, including students who had no idea how to differentiate between an adjective and an adverb. And remember these are the high scoring graduates going on to college and university. What about the ones who know their high school marks are too low for that, and have no such ambition? What do you think their literacy skills are like?

The thing is, reading and writing is the bedrock upon which everything else rests. If you can't read and write well then you are unlikely to be successful in any of your other subjects either. It doesn't take an educational professional to know that. So poor literacy is a sign of poor academic performance throughout public schools - which again leads right back to your statement about the wonderful professionalism of teachers.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Scotty

[Michael Hardner]

As I say, it depends on what 'level 3' is. From what I posted it seems to mean 20% of University grads are below the national average.

[treehugger]

Yes.

You have have joined me in the ranks of being one of the few 'enlightened' in Canada. You now understand the fundamental corruption of our country and the unions.

Remember, 1 out of 4 people in Canada report working at a regular work place full time.

Out of those people, 1 in 4 are Civil servants, and 1 in 3 of the above number is unionized (civil servants, auto workers etc)

This chunk of the working population that are middle class, are almost all civil servants paid through tax dollars. The private sector workers in the middle class are very rare if you are in that group.

In Canada, there is no morals. There is no rules. It's a very, very corrupt country where your job here is to support the big 'pyramid'. Canada is one big 'Pyramid' scam.

Where do you get off saying Canada is a corrupt country and there is no morals here? try living in a real corrupt country like China,Iran, N.Korea, Mexico etc etc maybe you should move away from here and do your talking in one of the real corrupt countries.

[Shwa]

In the CCL's report, "Post-Secondary Education in Canada 2008-2009," 20 per cent of university graduates in 2006 were below Level 3 on the prose literary scale (see page 63 for the stats). A Level 3 is considered the minimum literacy level necessary for coping in our society. Below Level 3 means struggling to understand even the simplest text.

I am aware of the literacy problems in Canada, but the focus is on the current school system:

Really Scotty, you think the average "end product" of our education system is an ignorant schmuck?

It would appear from the statistics you provide that "the average "end product" of our education system" is NOT an ignorant schmuck. Or does 20% somehow indicate an overall average of the other 80%?

[Tilter]

If 30 kids are in Grade 4 and 20 of them get a 60% average, 5 of them get a d avreage and the other 5 get a Fail, how many kids are graduated to Grade 5???????????????//

The answer is -----30

In our school system no one fails

This includes any member of the class who is intellectually challenged and is attending class because his/her mother insisted that it will make his/her life more normal. At the end of grade school there will be grade 8 students who can write their name, read at a grade 2 level & are now entering high school illiterate.

I wonder why the teachers are boycotting Hudak? Maybe it's because he would expect the school system to earn some of the money it pay for education.

[Michael Hardner]

If 30 kids are in Grade 4 and 20 of them get a 60% average, 5 of them get a d avreage and the other 5 get a Fail, how many kids are graduated to Grade 5???????????????//

The answer is -----30

They've been doing this for some time in the lower grades. Not sure how having students fail grade 5 over and over again will help things. What do the educators say ? I don't think it's reasonable to accuse them of some kind of conspiracy to stop failures. It seems like it would make more work for them to keep people in the system an extra year.

[Scotty]

I am aware of the literacy problems in Canada, but the focus is on the current school system:

Has the current system improved over the system from ten or twenty years ago? Because that is not my impression.

It would appear from the statistics you provide that "the average "end product" of our education system" is NOT an ignorant schmuck. Or does 20% somehow indicate an overall average of the other 80%?

That's the average university graduate, not the average high school graduate.

This evidence leaves little doubt that literacy is socially and economically important, yet

48% of Canadian adults, age 16-plus, do not have the literacy skills considered necessary to cope in a modern society and economy.9

Low literacy is the reality for a number of people who have graduated high school. For example, 73% of English latent class C are high-school graduates.

literacy