William Ashley Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 (edited) Education is a provincial jurisdiction. How do they define "low-income families"? The Federal Government provides loans and grants for post secondary education. There is a grant already in existence called the Canada Access Grant for Students from Low-income Families - the grant as it currently exists is scaled down so the lower the income the less higher the grant. This is a few hundred dollars. http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/learning/canada_student_loan/cgsp.shtml --------------------------- this is middle http://www.canlearn.ca/eng/postsec/money/grants/lmit.shtml#middle this is low http://www.canlearn.ca/eng/postsec/money/grants/lmit.shtml#low Low income for a single child is about 20k for the FAMILY INCOME (or about 10k per income earner (re: welfare family or part time minimum wage etc.) Non single parent families would find it VERY hard to be in this catagory. middle income is 30k or low income family with combined income.. Most low income families might fit into the middle income catagory. You can look to be paying over $8000 a year in tuition costs in a year. So the $1000 to $2000 pays 1/8th to 1/4th of the tuition costs. --- really student loans are required to pay the rest for most. Taking work when you are expected to study about 40 hours per week adds more than fulltime schedule to students. It basically forces student loans. I'm in the field of Free postsecondary education at underserviced post secondary education - for Canadian Citizens The lower the tuition rates... people get to pick from under subscribed schoools and free tutition at those institutions (for instance the federal government would pay for 50,000 students to go free of any under enrolled facilities if students were willing to go to underenrolled facilities tuition would be free. From the lowest 20% of tution cost institutions. Then a down scale from there. THe goal would be to reinvest a portion of the funds and have anyone who picked the free tuition program pay back a portion of the funds on a perpetual basis (sort of like an alumni dues), for instance each paying $100/year. Those funds would go back into the funds for the free tuition program. Each year $50+ million would be hoped to be raised) Addiing 5000 slots per year with the alumni fees. So after 10 years the aim would be to have 100,000 students with full tuition. Each year the alumni return would be greater, and more students would be enrolled. While the government direct investment could be reduced gradually as the pyramid of return increases. The goal would be to have the education system fully self funded through the program within a generation. However the 50,000 number is just a rough gauge, anyone who is willing to particiapte (who is a citizen) would be able to enroll in the program. Regardless of the tuition vs other grants the basic fee of $100/year (adjusted for inflation or deflation) (for life) Already the national educaiton budget approaches 4% of GDP or close to $6500 per student. This program should 1. Aim to direct students to lower tuition schools. filling from the bottom. And really perhaps only come close to $3500 per student (with $100/year paid in, or student would pay for themseleves in 35 years. if they live longer (if reality continues) each year after 35 helps the program, and lowers costs. --- really though the real aim would be to lower the cost of education for Canadians. For instance Undergrads in Quebec continued to have the lowest tuition fees, averaging $2,415, up 4.6 per cent. -- THIS MEANS any underfilled quebec school would be FULLY funded. Likewise schools like Memorial University FULLY funded tuition etc.. NFLD and Manitoba Fully funded tuition. Yes for less than $10 a month for lifeyou can have a year of education for free Edited March 29, 2011 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
capricorn Posted March 29, 2011 Author Report Posted March 29, 2011 Also, there are a lot of applied studies programs that will do more for employment than university degrees. Does this apply to trade schools or college programmes ? The grants are to apply to Cegeps in Quebec, which are equivalent to Ontario's high school level. So why wouldn't it apply to trade schools that are post high school? Our labour force is lacking in the trades. We should be encouraging that type of education. The announcement stated the funding would apply to students who attend “an accredited post-secondary university, college or CÉGEP.”CÉGEPs are unique to Quebec, offering two- or three-year programs between high school and university. However, tuition in CÉGEPs comes in at about $500 a year. When The Globe and Mail pointed out the Liberal program would pay more than a year’s cost of tuition and books, a member of Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff’s entourage said the students could save the surplus amount for future university studies. However, the Liberal war room went on to contact The Globe and explain that in the case of CÉGEP students, the Liberal plan would not offer the full $1,000 in funding every year. Instead of four payments at $1,000 or $1,5000, the Liberal program would spread out the funding over five years in the case of Quebec students. The party added that more tweaking could occur to reflect that variety of education programs across the country. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/would-cegep-students-make-a-profit-off-liberal-grants/article1961278/ Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
wyly Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 Hmmmm... I don't think the programme costs a lot, but I think they have programmes like this in place already. At least they used to - maybe Paul Martin cut them. In the end, I don't think it's going to provide a ton of help or influence a lot of people who are considering school. Maybe they could cut out the middle class part of it and just focus at smart students who are underprivileged or at risk ? Also, there are a lot of applied studies programs that will do more for employment than university degrees. Does this apply to trade schools or college programmes ? I don't see this as being an earth-shaking policy proposal in any case. 25% of tuition no student will pass up on that and from what I understand it applies to all colleges including technical schools...students plus parents it touches millions of voters particularly the age group that doesn't normally vote in large numbers...absolutely they'll come out to vote to put 1k per year in their pocket...for me this means a saving of 3K per year for multiple years...harper has shot his load with his budget he can't offer anything like this unless he backtracks and trashes his budget... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Michael Hardner Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 25% of tuition no student will pass up on that and from what I understand it applies to all colleges including technical schools...students plus parents it touches millions of voters particularly the age group that doesn't normally vote in large numbers...absolutely they'll come out to vote to put 1k per year in their pocket... for me this means a saving of 3K per year for multiple years...harper has shot his load with his budget he can't offer anything like this unless he backtracks and trashes his budget... Ok, based on your and Capricorn's extra information I like it a little more. Not much imagination there though. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
wyly Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 The grants are to apply to Cegeps in Quebec, which are equivalent to Ontario's high school level. So why wouldn't it apply to trade schools that are post high school? Our labour force is lacking in the trades. We should be encouraging that type of education. according to a cbc report today Canada is short 17K workers with technical skills,so how can education ever be a bad thing if it fills shortage... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 Ok, based on your and Capricorn's extra information I like it a little more. Not much imagination there though. probably because it doesn't affect you because you have no kids of that age or you're wealthy beyond belief...as I posted awhile back on another thread, people are greedy their votes can be bought...back when I lived in sask the opposition won an election by making totally irresponsible promises that bought votes left and right no matter that it would bankrupt the province, the youth vote voted for promises of cheaper gas for their cars and their parents voted for subsidized mortgages... my wallet says vote liberal, sorry NDP not this time... most significantly it'll motivate many to get out and vote, a segment of the population who normally would be sitting in a bar with their pals on election night...enough to change the outcome in a close riding... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Michael Hardner Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 probably because it doesn't affect you because you have no kids of that age or you're wealthy beyond belief... I don't vote only in my own self-interest. Do you ? It seems that way from your assumption. as I posted awhile back on another thread, people are greedy their votes can be bought...back when I lived in sask the opposition won an election by making totally irresponsible promises that bought votes left and right no matter that it would bankrupt the province, the youth vote voted for promises of cheaper gas for their cars and their parents voted for subsidized mortgages... my wallet says vote liberal, sorry NDP not this time... most significantly it'll motivate many to get out and vote, a segment of the population who normally would be sitting in a bar with their pals on election night...enough to change the outcome in a close riding... So... you're saying that barflies will go out and vote, tipping the outcome... because barflies... favour... cheaper tuition... Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
guyser Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 I don't vote only in my own self-interest. I'm curious, what interest do you use? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 I'm curious, what interest do you use? The general interest. I will do ok by the system regardless, but I want to see programmes that are sustainable and promote the general welfare long-term. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
ZenOps Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 Math doesn't have to add up, especially with taxes. Its like buying lottery tickets. $10 for 1, $50 for 6, or $100 for 15. To give an extra $500 incentive to complete 4 years sounds like a typical stay in school scheme. Sometimes high schoolers will take just one course or one year, get their tax break and student loan and then bail. Quote
Scotty Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 Its better than spending a billion for jails. More people in jails means fewer people committing crimes. I'm all for it. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
ToadBrother Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 More people in jails means fewer people committing crimes. I'm all for it. Because this formula has worked so brilliantly well in the US. Quote
Scotty Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 If there was any proof that these cuts do the least bit of good I could see your argument. As soon as those companies agree to stop off shoring jobs THEN we can talk about the 1.5%. e have a very competitive tax rate anyway as it stands, with a very educated and healthy population. I'd like to see a cut in payroll taxes companies pay, thus encouraging them to hire more workers. And, of course, those companies with fewer employees, or almost none since they've offshored work, would not benefit that much. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 Well if factory workers worked for a realistic wage then offshoring wouldn't be an issue. The oil patch and mines are hiring however. Don't factory workers tend to work for about one third what the oil patch pays unskilled labourers? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
wyly Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 I don't vote only in my own self-interest. Do you ? It seems that way from your assumption. so you don't have any kids or they're not of age where it would apply... So... you're saying that barflies will go out and vote, tipping the outcome... because barflies... favour... cheaper tuition... now you're just playing the silly bugger... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Scotty Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 according to a cbc report today Canada is short 17K workers with technical skills,so how can education ever be a bad thing if it fills shortage... The kind of workers we're short of are not the ones being educated at universities. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Smallc Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 (edited) The kind of workers we're short of are not the ones being educated at universities. This program is for any post secondary work....and I'm pretty sure people like engineers, geologists, and doctors are trained at universities. Edited March 29, 2011 by Smallc Quote
wyly Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 Don't factory workers tend to work for about one third what the oil patch pays unskilled labourers? probably and guess which unskilled worker were the first to be laid off when the recession hit...and what options do the unskilled have compared to the well educated "elites" when looking for a job... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Jack Weber Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 (edited) More people in jails means fewer people committing crimes. I'm all for it. Perhaps,in your mind,you'd prefer privately operated prisons like they have in the US?? I find it distasteful,but...Incarceration for profit??? Edited March 29, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
wyly Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 The kind of workers we're short of are not the ones being educated at universities. really, you're claiming we have no shortage of MDs and nurses?..or are they not trained at universities...mrs wyly's department routinely hires staff that do not have the proper credentials because of a shortage of finance graduates... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
guyser Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 More people in jails means fewer people committing crimes. I'm all for it. TB nailed it. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 now you're just playing the silly bugger... Well, the post I was commenting on didn't make much sense. It stated that people will get off their barstools and vote for Ignatieff with this programme. At least, I think that's what it said. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Scotty Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 Because this formula has worked so brilliantly well in the US. Why must everyone always look to the US as a comparison for everything? Be it health care, policing, military or whatnot. They are not us. We are not them. The socioeconomic and racial factors driving crime in the US are not present in this country to anything like the same extent. We have a high recidivism rate. We have too many people coming in and out of jails, committing crimes, largely going undetected (our criminal solution rates are poor), then finally getting caught and going back in. There is a cost involved in that crime, both to government and to individuals who are either victimized, or who have to pay higher prices for a wide variety of goods because of the criminal behaviour of others. Everything you buy at a store costs more because of thieves. Every piece of software you purchase costs more because of hackers. Your insurance costs more because of criminals. There should be no one on the streets who has more than a handful of separate convictions. The cost of permanent incarceration is cheaper than going through the courts and lawyers again and again, not to mention the societal costs of the damages they do while out. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 This program is for any post secondary work....and I'm pretty sure people like engineers, geologists, and doctors are trained at universities. Most of the skills in short supply are tradesmen. We are not short of engineers, we're short of electricians. We're not short on geologists. We're short carpenters and crane operators. And the shortage of doctors has more to do with the lack of available spaces in university, and the lack of internships in hospitals than tuition money. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Michael Hardner Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 We have a high recidivism rate. We have too many people coming in and out of jails, committing crimes, largely going undetected (our criminal solution rates are poor), then finally getting caught and going back in. There is a cost involved in that crime, both to government and to individuals who are either victimized, or who have to pay higher prices for a wide variety of goods because of the criminal behaviour of others. Everything you buy at a store costs more because of thieves. Every piece of software you purchase costs more because of hackers. Your insurance costs more because of criminals. Ok - these sounds like good reasons to build prisons... maybe. And overcrowding of prisons would be another good reason. I like good reasons, especially when backed up by solid evidence. Here you have an evidence to convince me that this idea of the CPC is a good one: can you provide evidence to do so ? To add: Since I have just prompted you for what amounts to 'thread drift' - please do so on another thread dedicated to the prison question. Thanks ! Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
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