Federal Election Polls

[TimG]

Both the CPC forming the government and the Libs/NDP forming the government are equally legal and constitutional.

So what. The issue is forming a government that depends on separatists to keep it alive. If the NDP and Libs operate as separate parties only one of them needs to support the government on any given bill. This allows them to maintain the credibility as opposition parties while limiting the influence of the BQ. If they form a coalition they will either need to get the support of the BQ or the CPC on each bill. This would require that the CPC either abandon any attempt to be an opposition or they give the BQ whatever they want.

Frankly, I cannot believe anyone thinks such a government would be acceptable. The constitutionality are irrelevant.

[punked]

So what. The issue is forming a government that depends on separatists to keep it alive. If the NDP and Libs operate as separate parties only one of them needs to support the government on any given bill. This allows them to maintain the credibility as opposition parties while limiting the influence of the BQ. If they form a coalition they will either need to get the support of the BQ or the CPC on each bill. This would require that the CPC either abandon any attempt to be an opposition or they give the BQ whatever they want.

Frankly, I cannot believe anyone thinks such a government would be acceptable. The constitutionality are irrelevant.

The NDP are putting the boots to the Bloc so we really don't know what the election count will be next election. If the NDP can keep it up and carry this into the next election the Bloc might be toast.

[cybercoma]

The BQ are democratically elected representatives of their constituents. The government is ultimately responsible to them as member of parliament, regardless.

[TimG]

The NDP are putting the boots to the Bloc so we really don't know what the election count will be next election. If the NDP can keep it up and carry this into the next election the Bloc might be toast.

If the NDP + Liberals can form a majority then I would not like it but it would not be a complete disaster. The only issue I have is if the BQ can hold a government hostage.

That said, I think you are exagerrating the potential NDP gains in QC.

Edited April 20, 2011 by TimG

[punked]

If the NDP + Liberals can form a majority then I would not like it but it would not be a complete disaster. The only issue I have is if the BQ can hold a government hostage.

Fair enough I can see how that would turn Canadians off.

[Tilter]

Indeed. I'm just tired of this constant whining about minorities and coalitions. People need to get used to it.

Ok, Just for you we'll all change.

Coalitions are good as long as the band of thieves stay together. In Canada, just imagine hoe "walking on eggshells" they'd have to be especially when anything financial--- Duceppe would want a 50% cut on any money bill & to be exempted from any Bill that concerned laws of the country as PQ is, in his mind, a different country.

[nittanylionstorm07]

So what. The issue is forming a government that depends on separatists to keep it alive. If the NDP and Libs operate as separate parties only one of them needs to support the government on any given bill. This allows them to maintain the credibility as opposition parties while limiting the influence of the BQ. If they form a coalition they will either need to get the support of the BQ or the CPC on each bill. This would require that the CPC either abandon any attempt to be an opposition or they give the BQ whatever they want.

Frankly, I cannot believe anyone thinks such a government would be acceptable. The constitutionality are irrelevant.

First, it depends on how many seats the CPC loses and the NDP/Libs gain.

Second, your argument can easily be turned around. The CPC in government would need the support of the Libs, NDP, or Bloc to pass bills... yes, of course the Libs/NDP would need the support of the CPC or Bloc to pass bill. Since the Libs/NDP and Cons are equally likely to support each other's bills in Parliament considering their position on issues. Neither solution for a government will be able to limit the Bloc's influence since the Bloc will be required to act if the government does not get the support of the opposition. That's how Canada's Parliament works. The argument that somehow the Libs and NDP are more malleable because they are two separate parties is irrelevant since they both strongly oppose Harper.

[TimG]

Since the Libs/NDP and Cons are equally likely to support each other's bills in Parliament considering their position on issues.

You don't understand how pariliment works. The opposition needs to oppose to maintain credibility. With the NDP and Libs acting independently they can take turns compromising while maintaining their opposition cred. The dynamics would be completely different with a Lib+NDP coalition.

[ToadBrother]

Ok, Just for you we'll all change.

Coalitions are good as long as the band of thieves stay together. In Canada, just imagine hoe "walking on eggshells" they'd have to be especially when anything financial--- Duceppe would want a 50% cut on any money bill & to be exempted from any Bill that concerned laws of the country as PQ is, in his mind, a different country.

Then the defeated Tories should throw the weight behind a Federalist government.

[nittanylionstorm07]

You don't understand how pariliment works. The opposition needs to oppose to maintain credibility. With the NDP and Libs acting independently they can take turns compromising while maintaining their opposition cred. The dynamics would be completely different with a Lib+NDP coalition.

Answer me this: how many times has Harper, in the last 5 years, relied on Bloc support to pass things? I can guarantee you it is a lot more than zero.

Also, let's not forget about how he was going trying to go into coalition with the Bloc before 2006.

[g_bambino]

The BQ are democratically elected...

I thought you said Canada isn't a democracy.

[nittanylionstorm07]

Then the defeated Tories should throw the weight behind a Federalist government.

True. If they oppose everything the Libs/NDP put forward, they are giving legitimacy to the Bloc.

[icman]

A coalition that includes a regional party who are an anathema to the rest of Canada and who have 93& of canadians NOT vote for them cannot be considered anything but a subversion of the will of the voters.

Not true. The voters who voted for the Bloc did so to be represented by the Bloc. The Bloc represents their will. The CPC (I presume, perhaps incorrectly) represents yours. You can't claim to believe in self-represented government on the one hand, then limit choices for others on the other hand. That is oxymoronic.

[Harry]

Things are a changing.

Ignatieff, Harper now tied in personal popularity but both trail Layton Results of the latest Canadian Press Harris/Decima poll on federal party support:

http://www.thespec.com/news/elections/article/519654--ignatieff-harper-now-tied-in-personal-popularity-but-both-trail-layton

[M.Dancer]

Not true. The voters who voted for the Bloc did so to be represented by the Bloc. The Bloc represents their will. The CPC (I presume, perhaps incorrectly) represents yours. You can't claim to believe in self-represented government on the one hand, then limit choices for others on the other hand. That is oxymoronic.

It is not...we live in a democracy and the party that receives the least amount of votes should not be in government, it is legal, but it is not the will of the electorate as a whole...those who voted for the bloc and who have bloc MPs have their representation in Ottawa, and apparently the 93% who did not vote for the Bloc get get the Bloc foisted on them anyway....it's a great issue, one that will lead the Conservatives to a majority...so keep on it.

[icman]

Dave, I wish people were smarter too! It would certainly make driving a lot more pleasant. It might also have prevented the rise of disco and later hiphop.

Still, they aren't! They are what they are and that's all that they are, er...am!

...

Joe Voter is a citizen. He will vote the way he wants. You cannot coerce him or force-educate him.

And it would be very wrong to try!

You shouldn't try to coerce him or trick him. But force-educate him? We do that now. We force people to go to school from K-8, and highschool is only semi-optional. Yet we don't teach civics any more. Why?

By the way, I didn't say that Joe Voter was dispicable for deliberately mis-educating others, I said that the CPC was dispicable for that. What I said was that Joe Voter was not worthy of respect if they choose to be both ignorant and contemptuous of something simultaneously. The right to contempt is earned through aquisition of deep knowledge. It's karmicly poetic that improved knowledge of most things tends to reduce one's contempt for them.

[ToadBrother]

Answer me this: how many times has Harper, in the last 5 years, relied on Bloc support to pass things? I can guarantee you it is a lot more than zero.

We could start with Bill C-59

http://howdtheyvote.ca/vote.php?id=999

Oh my goodness, a bill passed with the help of those evil Bloc members! Harper, how could you? YOu've betrayed Canada. Oh, I need to wring my hands in despair!

Or, to put it another way, the Tory supporters here are nothing more than hypocrites.

BTW, it's an interesting site. We can find out who voted for what pretty easily, not to mention who wasn't there.

Edited April 20, 2011 by ToadBrother

[icman]

That is all Harper is objecting to. The only difference between you and Harper is Harper recognizes that any government run by the Libs and NDP will BQ's cabin boy.

That has NOT been Harper's message, nor the message of his caucus. He and the CPC have been calling all coalitions treasonous, anti-Canadian, and anti-democratic, among other things, and none of them were distinguishing this Lib/NDP/Bloc coalition from the others just because it includes separatists. According to the CPC, all coalitions are devil spunk.

Your notion is revisionist and overly-apologetic.

BTW, separatism is not treasonous, according to the SCC. Quebec volunteered to enter Confederation, and the SCC has stated that the BNA Act does not prevent them from un-volunteering.

Let me be clear - I am the last person to want Quebec to separate from Canada. But democracy is about self-determination, which any good Reform/Conservative will tell you (while they wave an unregistered firearm under your nose, screaming about the unacceptable intrusions of the Federal Government in their lives). If you believe in self-determination, then you should support Quebec if it honestly wants to separate from the rest of Canada. Let 'em go and self-determine. Who are you to tell them that they can't? And on what basis, exactly?

[icman]

Why don't you understand that there is no coalition if the CPC forms government.

Technically, you are right. A "Coalition Government" means that cabinet is made up using members from different parties.

But the issue is this.

Harper is saying "Coalition = Bad". His more intelligent supporters are saying, "No, he means that a Coalition Government with a separatist party included is bad." But a Bloc Minister has no more power AS A SEPARATIST than a Bloc MP. They still have to execute their Ministerial position with competence and in an upright manner or be canned. So it is a false fear.

The CPC, right now, today, has to cooperate with the Bloc to pass bills if the Libs and the NDP are opposed. So the CPC Government is already working hand-in-hand with the SEPARATISTS (eek) on a daily basis. And HERE is where the separatists can exercise their separatist ideology - blocking bills and/or demanding changes to bills to benefit their pet causes.

So, the CPC is already "in a coalition" - aka, working hand in hand with, and having to bestow favours upon - the separatist Bloc. It may not be a formal coalition government, but the Bloc are getting what they want from Harper anyway, so what is the big difference?

[Harry]

Harper is now losing the coalition debate - he should learn to be quiet one in a while, as it is now costing him votes.

No wonder Layton smiles a lot these days - here is more good news for the NPD.

http://threehundredeight.blogspot.com/2011/04/northern-quebec-riding-polls-bode-well.html

[nittanylionstorm07]

Regardless what the Tories say, the GG will be required to defer to the second party and allow them to try to form a government if the CPC is defeated at the throne speech.

[ToadBrother]

Regardless what the Tories say, the GG will be required to defer to the second party and allow them to try to form a government if the CPC is defeated at the throne speech.

Which is why I'm fairly certain that once the votes are tallied, Harper isn't going to sitting up on a pedestal decrying coalitions. Maybe there isn't a formal coalition in the works, but he's going to have to offer someone some tasty morsels. I still think Layton is his best bet.

[icman]

It is not...we live in a democracy and the party that receives the least amount of votes should not be in government, it is legal, but it is not the will of the electorate as a whole...those who voted for the bloc and who have bloc MPs have their representation in Ottawa, and apparently the 93% who did not vote for the Bloc get get the Bloc foisted on them anyway....it's a great issue, one that will lead the Conservatives to a majority...so keep on it.

You forget that there is no democratic system in the world that votes on the makeup of "The Government". In ours and Australia's and New Zealand's and the UK's, cabinet is selected by the PM. In the US, cabinet is selected by the President.

So your contention that the electorate didn't vote for a Bloc member to sit in cabinet is just so much BS.

The electorate also didn't vote for a PM. Or the Speaker of the House. Or the Deputy PM. Or any of the other cabinet members. The PM selects the cabinet however he or she sees fit to best accomplish their goals. It is up to the PM to make those selections based on many, many factors, including competence in the relative field, but also on their acceptability to the House, and to the general public.

If it was such a hot-button issue, as you claim, then Lib supporters and NDP supporters would be freaking out en-masse, and they aren't.

[M.Dancer]

So your contention that the electorate didn't vote for a Bloc member to sit in cabinet is just so much BS.

So you contend then that the 93% who will not vote bloc are voting for the bloc to be part of the government?

[Harry]

More bad news for Harper, but a great day for Layton

Nanos Leadership Index -

Big day for Layton, as he closes in on Harper by an amazing 35.1 points. There is now only a small difference of 16 points between them.

Harper - 92.8, Down 17.8

Layton - 76.8, Up 17.3

Ignatieff - 41.5, Down 7.6

Duceppe - 10.8, Down 4.7

http://www.nanosresearch.com/election2011/20110419-LeadershipE.pdf

Edited April 20, 2011 by Harry