cybercoma Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 When did he say that? He didn't say it. John Ibbitson wrote about it in his book about Harper. http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/win-or-lose-stephen-harper-won-t-run-in-another-federal-election-new-book-says-1.3179214 It's speculation, but from someone who's very close to the people around Harper. Quote
Canada_First Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 A coup is an unlawful or extraconstitutional seizure of power. Can you explain where exactly defeating a government on the Throne Speech and the Governor General picking some other party to form a government is unlawful or unconstitutionalas far as the public at large is concerned it's a coup. So maybe Trudeau and Mulcair can add it to the leaders tour speeches now so the public knows to expect that. Quote
cybercoma Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) Oh and it wasn't that he'd step down without a majority. It was that he'd step down regardless. Majority or minority. In a minority situation he would wait a year, two years in a majority. A loss would see him pack his bags immediately. Edited September 12, 2015 by cybercoma Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 When did he say that? Interview with Mansbridge. Quote
Canada_First Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 He didn't say it. John Ibbitson wrote about it in his book about Harper. http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/win-or-lose-stephen-harper-won-t-run-in-another-federal-election-new-book-says-1.3179214 It's speculation, but from someone who's very close to the people around Harper. He said it during Mansbridge interview the other day. Quote
cybercoma Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) The Mansbridge interview was about forming government. He wouldn't try to form government if the CPC didn't have the most seats. Which honestly goes without saying.Edit: The reason for saying that is so that he could go back to that moment if the opposition tries to form a coalition and once again argue that it's not democratic and that "the party with the most seats governs." That's not how our system works though. Edited September 12, 2015 by cybercoma Quote
ToadBrother Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 as far as the public at large is concerned it's a coup. So maybe Trudeau and Mulcair can add it to the leaders tour speeches now so the public knows to expect that. I think the public aren't as ignorant as you suggest. It isn't a coup, Parliament picks the government. That is our system of government. Quote
cybercoma Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 I think the public aren't as ignorant as you suggest. It isn't a coup, Parliament picks the government. That is our system of government. It makes you wonder when people don't even understand the basic fundamentals of our system. Quote
Canada_First Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 I think the public aren't as ignorant as you suggest. It isn't a coup, Parliament picks the government. That is our system of government. So the party with the most seats doesn't win. I haven't heard Trudeau or Mulcair say that yet. If they've said they will not be cooperative with a minority government. Please show us. Quote
Smallc Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 Interview with Mansbridge. That's not what he said. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 That's not what he said. Yes, actually he said he would step down if he didn't have the most seats. Quote
Smallc Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 Yes, actually he said he would step down if he didn't have the most seats. Okay, now that's not what you said. Quote
ToadBrother Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 So the party with the most seats doesn't win. I haven't heard Trudeau or Mulcair say that yet. If they've said they will not be cooperative with a minority government. Please show us. In a hung Parliament, Parliament decides who wins. I'm sorry you don't understand the Constitution. There are resources to tell you how things actually work, and a number of commentators who have pointed out the oddness of the leaders' confusion on this point. But it isn't confusing. Voters elect a Parliament, and the Parliament picks the Government. I know, I know. You actually want one of the Opposition parties to support the Government on the Throne Speech, or at least, not vote at all. Well, maybe they will, that is Parliament's right, just as it is Parliament's right, a right that dates back centuries, to decide it doesn't like that government and to withdraw its confidence. At that point, it's in the GG's hands. So, when you say the opposition parties are fomenting a coup, what you're really saying is that the Governor General is plotting a coup. Is that you're saying, because, in the case of a fall of a government, it is the GG who decides whether to invite someone else to form a Government or to call an election. I'm not surprised at your confusion, it was the Opposition's confusion as well in 2005 and 2008, which is why they went around waving coalition agreements that they had sent to the GG. Oh, did I mention 2005, where the Tories, NDP and Bloc sent a letter to the GG declaring that if the Liberals were defeated that Parliament was ready and willing to form a new government? Are you trying to say the Tories were in error in the understanding of the Constitution in 2005? Are you saying they were mounting a coup? Are you saying the long-established notions of how exactly governments are formed in a Westminster-style parliament have changed in the last ten years? Or are you just trying to give yourself some hope that the Tories have some sort of automatic right to rule because they manage some bare plurality of seats? Quote
Queenmandy85 Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 I think the public aren't as ignorant as you suggest. It isn't a coup, Parliament picks the government. That is our system of government.Parliament does not pick the Government. The Government is appointed by the Crown. However, a government must have the confidence of Parliament in order to govern. A petty technicality, but I like petty technicalities. Quote A Conservative stands for God, King and Country
ToadBrother Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 Parliament does not pick the Government. The Government is appointed by the Crown. However, a government must have the confidence of Parliament in order to govern. A petty technicality, but I like petty technicalities. True enough, and an important point. Should the other parties decide to defeat the Government at the first post-election Throne Speech, which Stepehn Harper has committed will happen fairly soon after the election (so no trying to stave it off for five months like Joe Clark did), it is up to the Governor General to decide the next course of action. The only real guide we have as to what the GG might do comes from Adrienne Clarkson, who commented after her time as GG that if Parliament had defeated the Government so soon after an election, she would not have subjected the electorate to another election. There is no real hard and fast rule. In the King-Byng affair, Mackenzie King tried to dissolve Parliament nine months after he'd decided to remain Prime Minister despite not having an actual plurality of seats (a good solid example as to how the incumbent always has first right to try to govern). In that case, however, it was because Lord Byng had extracted a commitment from King not to seek dissolution for two years, and King didn't even wait a year before trying to get fresh elections. So that may not be a sure guide. Quote
Queenmandy85 Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 In 1972, I was living in the student residences at U-Vic. We were watching the election results in the TV lounge and Trudeau was leading Stanfield by two seats. I said, if Stanfield wins, I'll buy pizza for everybody. Stanfield suddenly pulled ahead by two seats. I stalled as long as I could but the results stayed the same. I ordered two extra large pizzas and Trudeau pulled ahead. He won by two seats. It turned out that if fewer than one hundred people in key ridings across the country had voted PC instead of Liberal, Stanfield would have become Prime Minister. I said it is the Crown that appoints the Prime Minister, but it is the dedicated campaign workers in each riding getting out the vote that give the leader the seats to provide the seats to win the confidence of Parliament. Politics is Canada's national sport. If you don't campaign, don't complain. Quote A Conservative stands for God, King and Country
ReeferMadness Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 Harper has already said that without a majority he won't sit as PM. That's not what he said. He said he won't sit as PM if he doesn't have the most seats. That's a plurality, not necessarily a majority. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 Parliament does not pick the Government. The Government is appointed by the Crown. However, a government must have the confidence of Parliament in order to govern. A petty technicality, but I like petty technicalities. Another arcane piece of evidence indicting an anachronistic system that nobody understands. And any democratic system that isn't understood by the people who it purports to represent is broken beyond repair. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ToadBrother Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 Another arcane piece of evidence indicting an anachronistic system that nobody understands. And any democratic system that isn't understood by the people who it purports to represent is broken beyond repair. It is a system that has guaranteed peaceful transitions of government for three centuries. Quote
Smallc Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 Another arcane piece of evidence indicting an anachronistic system that nobody understands. Because the system would be very different if it was selected by a rubber stamp president instead. Quote
ToadBrother Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 That's not what he said. He said he won't sit as PM if he doesn't have the most seats. That's a plurality, not necessarily a majority. That's what I heard him say on Mansbridge. It ruffled a few feathers in the constitutional circles I lurk on, because his words were basically "The party with the most seats has the right to govern", which isn't actually accurate at all. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 Because the system would be very different if it was selected by a rubber stamp president instead. You're equating an elected official with a 'rubber stamp'? And do you think that's the only other way? And if the PM is supposed to be accountable to Parliament, then why not actually have a formal election of the PM by secret ballot of parliamentarians? At least, that would be some indication to people of how things are supposed to work. Or are you saying you prefer a system that nobody understands? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Queenmandy85 Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 The convention is, as I understand it, in a minority, the Governor General first asks the sitting Prime Minister if she can form a government that will have the confidence of the House. If she says no, the G then goes to the leader with the most seats. In the interview with Mansbridge, Harper said if he did not have the most seats, he "would not be Prime Minister." Today, on the cbc poll tracker, there are only six seats separating the NDP in the lead, and the Liberals in third place. The CPC is in the middle. I Love Politics. Quote A Conservative stands for God, King and Country
ReeferMadness Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 That's what I heard him say on Mansbridge. It ruffled a few feathers in the constitutional circles I lurk on, because his words were basically "The party with the most seats has the right to govern", which isn't actually accurate at all. It's not accurate; but as we've seen, the rules matter less than what people believe to be the rules. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ToadBrother Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 You're equating an elected official with a 'rubber stamp'? And do you think that's the only other way? And if the PM is supposed to be accountable to Parliament, then why not actually have a formal election of the PM by secret ballot of parliamentarians? At least, that would be some indication to people of how things are supposed to work. Or are you saying you prefer a system that nobody understands? Because then the PM would be a president, and we would not have a government formed out of Parliament. Quote
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