Westerners, Sarcasm & Irony

[August1991]

Sarcasm is saying one thing and meaning the opposite. For example, if someone spills milk, another person might say, "Smart move!" It is sarcastic because the person, by spilling milk, is obviously not making a smart move.

Irony is sarcasm with a third party. Irony is when one person says something, and an audience can see the obvious folly. For example, irony is if one actor on a theatrical stage tells another actor "Open the door!" But the audience can see that the door has a bucket of water on its ledge.

On the Internet, you will find various different definitions of sarcasm and irony - perhaps better than mine. At heart however, it amounts to saying one thing, but meaning another. Sarcasm and irony are sophisticated forms of communication. They are both part of Western civilization.

Children (below the age of 12 or so) cannot understand sarcasm. Children cannot understand that someone says one thing but means the other. This explains why so many teenagers are sarcastic. A 15 year old wants to show that she is no longer a child.

(You can try this experiment at home. If you have young children in your household, spill some milk and try being sarcastic. Then, look at their reaction.)

----

IME, Westerners (eg. Christians/Jews) are adept at sarcasm/irony. Non westerners (eg. Muslims/Hindus/Buddhists) have trouble understanding sarcasm/irony.

I frankly don't think that religion has anything to do with the ability to understand a more sophisticated level of language. Ancient Greeks, some 500 years before Christ, made sarcasm and irony obvious. To my knowledge, there is nothing sarcastic in Jewish religion.

So, why are Westerners sarcastic? Why can't non-Westerners understand irony?

Edited March 17, 2011 by August1991

[kimmy]

That's the worst explanation of irony I've ever heard, Miss Morissette.

-k

[August1991]

That's the worst explanation of irony I've ever heard, Miss Morissette.

-k

Kimmy, you must be a Westerner/teenager because you are so sarcastic in your posts. Edited March 17, 2011 by August1991

[msj]

IME, Westerners (eg. Christians/Jews) are adept at sarcasm/irony. Non westerners (eg. Muslims/Hindus/Buddhists) have trouble understanding sarcasm/irony.

I frankly don't think that religion has anything to do with the ability to understand a more sophisticated level of language. Ancient Greeks, some 500 years before Christ, made sarcasm and irony obvious. To my knowledge, there is nothing sarcastic in Jewish religion.

So, why are Westerners sarcastic? Why can't non-Westerners understand irony?

Just so we're clear: you have accounted for differences in language?

For example, the fact that you don't speak korean and therefore have no idea how well sarcasm/irony carries to a Korean speaker?

Recently, I said something sarcastic to a French person (native France not those a$$holes from Quebec ) and he didn't get it at all. Had to explain it.

Once it was explained then he got it but it was clearly a language issue.

But, of course, he's from France and, therefore, a "Westerner" so of course he got it!

[Shwa]

So, why are Westerners sarcastic? Why can't non-Westerners understand irony?

What non-westerners can't understand irony and sarcasm? Do you have some sort of ethnological survey you are referring to or are you pulling something out of your arse?

Oh I get it, you are trying to be ironic...

[Bonam]

I would also guess that the main thing here is language. I don't think there is any reason to believe that easterners are so mentally underdeveloped as to be incapable of the level of understanding of communication as that which is achieved by western children at the age of 12, as is implied in the first post. Different languages are better at expressing different types of thought. English, for example, is great for being very logical. Romance languages are great for just that: romance, expressing emotion. Some types of phrasing and humour simply do not translate well from some languages to others. The very meanings of words and sentence structures carry different connotations in different languages. What language one thinks in can have a profound impact on one's worldview. Also, people of certain cultures/religions can be very sensitive about specific topics: for example Muslims about their idolized conqueror. One would not expect them to appreciate irony about this subject.

[cybercoma]

That's the worst explanation of irony I've ever heard, Miss Morissette.

-k

This is sarcasm because obviously August1991 is not Miss Morissette.

[Jonsa]

This is sarcasm because obviously August1991 is not Miss Morissette.

How ironic.

[ToadBrother]

How ironic.

Chuckle.... I feel like I'm in a Monty Python skit where the words "THIS IS IRONY" start flashing to help irony-impaired audience members out.

First of all, I've never heard this claim about non-Westerners not getting irony or sarcasm. I suspect that other posters here are right and that the major issue would be language and idioms. I'm sure that they have sarcastic or ironic statements that we might have a hard time getting unless we were more familiar with the idiom. As a general rule, I find most people get sarcasm, because it's usually pretty blatant, but a lot of folks even here in the West have a harder time with irony, which can often be more subtle.

[Jonsa]

I suspect like others that the "cross cultural" thing is mostly linguistic.

here's an interesting take on the subject:

http://www.livescience.com/2633-sarcasm-evolutionary-survival-skill.html

[SF/PF]

English, for example, is great for being very logical. Romance languages are great for just that: romance, expressing emotion.

I agree with your comments in general regarding language, but English is structurally more vague and less precise than the romance languages.

I don't have a lot of experience with other languages, but English seems to have an aweful lot of idioms. We use them so often that we often don't realize that we're doing it. I wonder if other languages make as much use of idioms, and if that could explain culturally differences in the appreciation of irony and satire (assuming that such differences are real)?

[August1991]

Recently, I said something sarcastic to a French person (native France not those a$$holes from Quebec ) and he didn't get it at all. Had to explain it.

Once it was explained then he got it but it was clearly a language issue.

But, of course, he's from France and, therefore, a "Westerner" so of course he got it!

msj, sarcasm is a sophisticated form of communication. On the Internet, it is difficult to show sarcasm.

Language issue? I frankly that sarcasm is a Western invention.

---

Try being sarcastic with a non-Westerner. (You can use your eyes to show that you mean the opposite of what you say.)

If the non-Westerner happens to understand your sarcasm, ask them to translate your sarcastic comment to her/his non-western parent.

We Westerners have very sophisticated forms of communication. Even Alanis Morissette, as Kimmy notes above, doesn't get it.

And no, "sarcasm" is not comparable to "face".

Edited March 19, 2011 by August1991

[bloodyminded]

That's the worst explanation of irony I've ever heard, Miss Morissette.

-k

Perfect!

[bloodyminded]

English, for example, is great for being very logical. Romance languages are great for just that: romance, expressing emotion.

I dunno. According to Joseph Conrad--the Polish writer who learned English at 21, became an undisputed master at it, and then learned French--French is a more concrete language than English; it is actually easier to say exactly what one means to say in French than in English, which remains unbelievably jam-packed with metaphor and confusing idiom. I would argue that this is one of the great things about the English language.

Edited March 21, 2011 by bloodyminded

[August1991]

LOL, at comparing the Sun to the economy. I am trying to figure out if you are being sarcastic, I think you must be.

I rest my case.

I dunno. According to Joseph Conrad--the Polish writer who learned English at 21, became an undisputed master at it, and then learned French--French is a more concrete language than English; it is actually easier to say exactly what one means to say in French than in English, which remains unbelievably jam-packed with metaphor and confusing idiom. I would argue that this is one of the great things about the English language.

Joseph Conrad. Younger, I read him in translation to French. Then, I read him in the original English. And then, after I learned Russian/Bulgarian sort-of, I read him again. He's a typical Slav.

I will stay with my first French translation impression. Conrad is impenetrable. Lord Jim is OK but Heart of Darkness is his best story because the reader has no idea what is happening, and it just gets worse.

----

Irony? Sarcasm? The various comments/giggles/smilies above prove my point. Sarcasm is all about saying one thing but meaning another. Nudge, wink. Irony is doing the same but with an audience.

Communication is the basis of any co-operation and co-operation is fraught with problems. Irony and sarcasm are Western gifts to co-operative civilization.

----

Here's an experiment that you can try at home: Be obviously sarcastic with immigrants. Watch their frown turn to a smile. And then, you can turn to someone on the side - and introduce everyone into this wonderful world of irony.

Like the West, and individual freedom, it never fails.

Edited March 27, 2011 by August1991

[TimG]

We Westerners have very sophisticated forms of communication.

The Japanese language has many ways to say the same thing with different degrees of politeness. Using an inappropriate form of politeness can be used for humour or insult depending on the context. None of these subtleties can be translated to English. Does this means that Japanese have more sophisticated forms of communication?

Personally, I see nothing sophisticated about using 'sarcasm' as a communication device. It crude and prone to misinterpretation (even by native speakers). If the desire was to *communicate* then there are better ways to do it.

[August1991]

The Japanese language has many ways to say the same thing with different degrees of politeness.

In European French and Russian, there are two ways to say "you". In Quebec French, basically one. In English nowadays (whether in America or Europe), one.

In Japanese, there are more than 20 ways to say "you". (Why should a woman speak to a taxi driver so differently than she speaks to her husband? And why should the taxi driver use a different term for her than he uses for her husband? Why should anyone use any special term to speak to a 20 year old Buddhist monk.)

Personally, I see nothing sophisticated about using 'sarcasm' as a communication device. It crude and prone to misinterpretation (even by native speakers). If the desire was to *communicate* then there are better ways to do it.

Well then, you don't understand the difference between childhood and adulthood.

Children cannot understand sarcasm. Adults do.

Edited March 27, 2011 by August1991

[Oleg Bach]

What is ironic? I don't have a clue. Everything these days seems to be steeped in irony...and as for sarcasm...every speech that Obama gives is totally sarcastic. But if you display sarcasm with a dead pan serious face..people take it as honesty..and truth - when in reality all irony and sarcasm has it's roots in deception.

[TimG]

In Japanese, there are more than 20 ways to say "you". (Why should a woman speak to a taxi driver so differently than she speaks to her husband? And why should the taxi driver use a different term for her than he uses for her husband? Why should anyone use any special term to speak to a 20 year old Buddhist monk.)

Language is a reflection of the culture that created it. Japanese culture places a value on politeness and their language has adjusted accordingly. It is neither good nor bad. It just is. For people speaking other languages the western obsession with saying one thing but meaning another is just as inexplicable.

Children cannot understand sarcasm. Adults do.

So what? My kids understood sarcasm when by the time they were 8. They understood because I made a point of teaching them. There was no 'cognitive gap' that prevented them from understanding. It was simply a question of someone explaining the rules. Most people are not taught specifically so they learn it when their peers start using it.

I don't see sarcasm as anything special. It is a social convention that you have to learn. Just like Japanese have to learn the different levels of politeness.

Edited March 27, 2011 by TimG

[Bonam]

In European French and Russian, there are two ways to say "you". In Quebec French, basically one. In English nowadays (whether in America or Europe), one.

In Quebec French, people don't use "tu" and "vous"?

[bloodyminded]

I rest my case.

Joseph Conrad. Younger, I read him in translation to French. Then, I read him in the original English. And then, after I learned Russian/Bulgarian sort-of, I read him again. He's a typical Slav.

I will stay with my first French translation impression. Conrad is impenetrable. Lord Jim is OK but Heart of Darkness is his best story because the reader has no idea what is happening, and it just gets worse.

It's a straightfoward narrative, written in a clear and comprehensible style.

I understood it perfectly.

I rest my case.

[Tilter]

Oh I thot you were referring to

Westerners, Sarcasm & Irony

sarcasm as in an Albertan saying;

It's OK with me if the Quebecois use the balance of payments to provide services to Quebeckers that the Alberta can't afford to provide for Albertans because we pay a tremendous balance of payments to Quebec. That kind of western & sarcasm :lol:

[August1991]

What is ironic? I don't have a clue.

I was thinking about this and then a colleague, an actuary, gave me a simple example to understand (true story, apparently):

Sarcasm: While sitting in a presentation by a mathematician explaining big data, the gamma distribution, blah-blah, actuarial tables - guy next to him says: "I'm going to die of boredom listening to this mathematician."

Irony: In the midst of the presentation, the mathematician presenting/explaining big data/gamma distribution/actuarial tables -collapses/keels over because of a heart attack.

Edited March 5, 2016 by August1991

[kimmy]

I was thinking about this and then a colleague, an actuary, gave me a simple example to understand (true story, apparently):

Sarcasm: While sitting in a presentation by a mathematician explaining big data, the gamma distribution, blah-blah, actuarial tables - guy next to him says: "I'm going to die of boredom listening to this mathematician."

No, that's hyperbole.

Sarcasm would be "this is riveting stuff."

-k

[The_Squid]

No, that's hyperbole.

Sarcasm would be "this is riveting stuff."

-k

English doesn't seem to be August's strong suit...