The end of the empire of Japan

[WIP]

This really illustrate how grotesquely out of touch the anti-nuclear types are:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/18/fukushima_friday/page3.html

Things went wrong at Fukushima but so far, there is nothing that cannot be rectified by higher tsunami walls and better waste disposal practices. The hyperventilating is getting quite ridiculous.

Here's a familiar story:

In a report submitted to Japan's nuclear safety agency on February 28, Japan's largest power utility, Tokyo Electric Power Co, said it had failed to inspect 33 pieces of equipment in the six reactors at the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex.

The equipment missed in scheduled inspections included a motor and a backup power generator for the No. 1 reactor, the firm said in a report available on a company Website.

Video: NBC ARCHIVE: April 28, 1986: Chernobyl nuclear disaster

The exchange between the utility and safety regulators regarding safety misses at the plant has attracted attention because of its timing, and the equipment involved.

The failure of backup power systems is a key element of the current crisis, which has prompted a massive effort to contain radiation from the stricken plant.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42188550/ns/world_news-asiapacific/?GT1=43001

This is something to consider in light of the proposal by OPG in Ontario, to add new reactors to the Darlington Nuclear Station, which is just 70 km or 40 miles east of Toronto. These ticking time bombs are just a matter of when, not if, since murphy's law guarantees that shortcuts and omissions will occur on all of these safety and backup procedures. Darlington Nuclear

[WIP]

I take that to be an acknowledgment that you have absolutely no evidence that any problems have spread outside of the immediate area and that all of your hyperbole is nothing but the product of an over-active imagination.

And I'm supposed to take your bluster that power can be hooked up at all of the reactors and waste containment tanks, and everything will be okay! At this time the latest info indicates that

Status of nuclear power plants in Fukushima as of 21:00 March 22 (Estimated by JAIF)

at reactor 4 - there is still no power to the building, and the cooling pumps are no operational. The "nuclear samurai" are still trying to spray in sea water through a hole in the side of the outer containment building. Doesn't exactly sound like everything's under control!

Reactor 3 core and fuel integrity has been damaged, a situation they picture as critical. The reactor vessel integrity is not known. There have been reports of cracks, from other sources. There is no power to cool the reactor core. Nuclear fuel rods have been exposed, but sea water is being pumped into the core. Water level in the spent fuel pond of Reactor #3 is still low, while being sprayed for long periods with sea water.

Reactor 2 core and fuel have been damaged. Damage is suspected to the containment vessel. Despite news reports of electric power arriving at the Reactor #2, even to "a switchboard", there is no power running cooling of the reactor core or the spent fuel ponds, at the time of the latest report. Sea water is being pumped to the core continuously. JAIF says the pressure level of Reactor #2 is "unknown." Pressure in the outer containment vessel is listed as low, and containment venting has been temporarily stopped.

Even with power established it's unknown whether the instrumentation, or the cooling pumps will work in this reactor. According to some sources interviewed, it is still possible that turning on the electricity will spark one or more fires, especially now that the entire building has been nearly flooded by salt sea water.

And reactor 1 Both the core and the nuclear fuel rods of reactor #1 are listed as damaged. There is no core cooling by the built-in pumps, nor any working electrical power to the building, except to some outer connections. The building was severely damaged by the hydrogen gas explosion. Fuel was exposed, and sea water is still being pumped in to maintain cooling...........but, everything's okay, right?

As for the stories about radiation leaks, you nuclear lobbyists aren't being straightforward about this information either, since the dangers will depend on the length of exposure; so, these above normal readings for radioactive iodide and milk and leafy vegetables as far as 60 km away from the plant are going to keep rising until radiation stops leaking from the plant. And I'm still waiting for one of these nuclear experts to explain what happens afterward with all of that seawater being pumped in to cool the reactors....where does that end up?

[Post To The Left]

This morning in Japan, March 23rd, I awoke with some good news. As talked about earlier this week there was a rush to connect the reactors to power but after the successful water spraying operation radiation was reduced to normal levels actions at the plant were scaled back. The low radiation emissions have allowed the nuclear workers to move slowly and carefully, with an eye towards their safety, in connecting power to the reactors. The cooling systems for reactors 5 and 6 have been restarted and are now working normally. Reactors 1 and 2's control centres have been turned on and now the nuclear workers have been checking all the instruments before turning on the cooling systems.

This morning's Japanese TV reported that reactor 3's control room has been connected to external power and they are checking the instrumentation before turning on its cooling system. Ironically the reactor that has sparked the most concern was reactor 2 as it hadn't had its roof sheered off like the other reactors making it hard to spray water in. However a new spraying machine, one of those multistory concrete mixers, has been brought in and it can spray specifically targeted areas from above as it is so tall.

With 5 & 6 reactors operating normally 1, 2 & 3 almost having their cooling system being brought online nuclear workers can soon focus their efforts on the final 4th reactor today, Wednesday.

Now that the crisis is over there is finally being some self evaluation on the hysteria reporting by media outlets. It has no been revealed that some of the hyperbole over the nuclear crisis may be due to a translation error of the foreign media. While the Japanese public has been getting calm reassurances from the nuclear briefings, the same briefings have been translated by foreign media as meaning that a melt down was occurring, which never happened and wasn't the Japanese official's intention.

As for the contaminated food concerns the levels are so low that it isn't even an issue but just to be safe all produce from the affected area has been banned from the markets. But even if you insisted on eating the "radiated" food you "would need to eat 41 pounds of that Hitachi spinach to reach the nuclear power plant worker's annual exposure limit." As for the milk, "To reach the radiation dose limit for a power plant worker, you'd need to drink 2,922 eight-ounce glasses of milk. To raise your lifetime cancer risk by 4 percent, you'd have to drain more than 58,000 glasses of milk. That would take you 160 years, if you drank one 8-ounce glass a day." It is also being reported that TEPCO will pay farmers for radiation loss.

As for the ocean the key to any solution involving pollution is dilution!

Edited March 23, 2011 by Post To The Left

[TimG]

at reactor 4 - there is still no power to the building, and the cooling pumps are no operational.... yada yada yada

As I said. All you have is your feverish imagination. Get back to us when you actually have more than wild fantasies about what *might* happen. Edited March 23, 2011 by TimG

[Jonsa]

Seems to me that the plant design was pretty damn good with the glaring exception of where the back up diesel generators were placed and the low seawall. It wasn't the quake that screwed things up.

then, while everyone else was going crazy with panic, the safety and emergency protocols kicked in. Seems the workers there are a pretty dedicated and highly trained. they were able to put plans b, c, d, right up to plan I3(improvise, improvise,improvise) into effect as the crisis continued to develop.

In a way this is a very positive event for the nuclear power industry. Many many lessons will be gleaned and a bunch of modifications to existing plants and existing procedures will take place to make them even safer.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Jonsa

[GWiz]

Seems to me that the plant design was pretty damn good with the glaring exception of where the back up diesel generators were placed and the low seawall. It wasn't the quake that screwed things up.

then, while everyone else was going crazy with panic, the safety and emergency protocols kicked in. Seems the workers there are a pretty dedicated and highly trained. they were able to put plans b, c, d, right up to plan I3(improvise, improvise,improvise) into effect as the crisis continued to develop.

In a way this is a very positive event for the nuclear power industry. Many many lessons will be gleaned and a bunch of modifications to existing plants and existing procedures will take place to make them even safer.

It's over? GREAT!

Anybody here know the "shelf life" of Radioactive Iodine-131 in drinking water?

[bush_cheney2004]

It's over? GREAT!

Anybody here know the "shelf life" of Radioactive Iodine-131 in drinking water?

Yea...about nine days.

[GWiz]

Yea...about nine days.

Cool...

Thanks...

[wyly]

Seems to me that the plant design was pretty damn good with the glaring exception of where the back up diesel generators were placed and the low seawall. It wasn't the quake that screwed things up.

plant design was very poor according to todays standards...the earth quake did very little serious damage anywhere in the area because it was 150-200kms away in the ocean, it wasn't a direct hit like the much smaller quake that hit Haiti...so no nuclear plant anywhere has yet to be tested by a serious quake...

[GostHacked]

As for the contaminated food concerns the levels are so low that it isn't even an issue but just to be safe all produce from the affected area has been banned from the markets.

Just to be safe it's banned. There is no risk to people's health, however it's taken off the market as a precaution? I don't buy that for a second. We've done internal recalls based on much much less contamination or risk to people's health.

[GostHacked]

plant design was very poor according to todays standards...the earth quake did very little serious damage anywhere in the area because it was 150-200kms away in the ocean, it wasn't a direct hit like the much smaller quake that hit Haiti...so no nuclear plant anywhere has yet to be tested by a serious quake...

True, that is why they were MARK I reactors. The first design, which in later revisions with the MARK II and III generators, previous flaws were addressed and fixed in the proceding designs. But this was the first real test of a nuke plant in an earthquake, the results are still pending.

Edited March 23, 2011 by GostHacked

[WIP]

In today's news:

TOKYO, Japan — Fears that radiation had spread beyond the quake-crippled power plant in northeast Japan escalated Wednesday when high levels of iodine were discovered in Tokyo's tap water, rendering it too dangerous for babies to drink.

Although technicians claimed some progress in containing a potential nuclear meltdown at the Fukushima Daiichi plant, 12 days after it was badly damaged by a 9.0-magnitude earthquake and tsunami, the success was overshadowed by reports of radioactive iodine at twice the safe limit in water at a treatment plant that services the capital’s 23 wards and Greater Tokyo.

Tokyo's Governor Shintara Ishihara said there was no immediate health threat and urged people to "remain calm."

But the news, especially that babies under 1 year old shouldn't have tap water, sent mothers scurrying to the store.

“All the bottled water in the supermarket was gone immediately,” said Azusa Imamura, in her 50s, after a quick shopping trip in her crowded Tokyo suburb. “Nobody is sure of anything.”

_________________________________________________________________________________________________-

Meanwhile, the United States became the first country to block produce from Japan since the tsunami struck. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) halted the import of milk, vegetables and fruits, according to Reuters. Imports will be halted from four prefectures in Japan's northeast, which was hit hardest by the disaster.

The FDA said the banned foods will be detained at the entry and not sold to the public, AP reported. Other foods from Japan, such as seafood, will continue to be sold but will be screened for radiation.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Meanwhile, at the plant, concerns of nuclear meltdown again ratcheted up when a cloud of black smoke burst forth from the troublesome No. 3 reactor Wednesday afternoon, once again forcing the evacuation of workers.

Hidehiko Nishiyama, deputy director-general of the nuclear safety agency, said he didn't know the cause of the smoke. “We did not see fire,” he said. “The smoke is now being subdued. We are not sure of the cause.”

An hour later, the smoke had cleared and engineers and technicians were able to resume work restoring power to the plant and trying to cool it down, Nishiyama said, adding that radiation levels had not increased as a result of the incident.

Engineers have managed to connect outside power lines to all six reactors, but extensive damage to the plant — much of which is still unknown — means workers have a way to go before they will be able to shut down all reactors.

Jun Saito, director-general of economic analysis for the cabinet, estimated recovery from the disaster would take at least three years. He said it was uncertain how much it would cost to repair damages estimated at more than $300 billion.

So far more than 9,000 people have been confirmed dead in the aftermath of the earthquake and tsunami that struck on March 11, 2011.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/japan/110323/japan-tokyo-water-radiation-nuclear-tsunami

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Since the nuclear lobbyists here are all full of bullshit and bluster about any concerns over radiation or the fact that it is still touch and go at the damaged facility (workers can only work 30 minutes at reactor 2 to receive the maximum allowed annual radiation does for example) are just alarmism, I want to include this analysis by the watchdog group FAIR regarding the New York Times downplaying of radiation risks compared to what real experts have to say about the problem:

NYT's Reassuring Radiation Reporting

The radioactive plume from Japan wafting from west to east across the U.S. is absolutely nothing to worry about, writes William J. Broad in a New York Times report today ("Radiation Over U.S. Is Harmless, Officials Say," 3/22/11) about the radiation threats posed by the Japanese nuclear plant disaster. Broad writes:

Health experts said that the plume's radiation had been diluted enormously in its journey of thousands of miles and that--at least for now, with concentrations so low--its presence will have no health consequences in the United States. In a similar way, faint radiation from the Chernobyl disaster spread around the globe and reached the West Coast in 10 days, its levels detectable but minuscule.

There are two things wrong with Broad's report:

One, he doesn't quote or even name any health experts in the piece. When he later elaborates on the claim that radiation from Fukushima will have no health consequences in the United States, he cites the Department of Energy--better known for its promotion of nuclear power than for its health expertise.

Two, in saying that small amounts of radiation are safe, Broad seems to be embracing the industry-favored threshold model of radiation risks. That view holds that below a certain level of radiation exposure, no health danger is posed.

But this is at odds with the National Academy of Sciences and several other science associations that hold there is no such threshold, and that any exposure poses some additional risk of cancer: the greater the exposure,

the greater the risk. The linear, no threshold model isn't universally embraced, but is the prevailing view in scientific circles.

[TimG]

But this is at odds with the National Academy of Sciences and several other science associations that hold there is no such threshold, and that any exposure poses some additional risk of cancer: the greater the exposure.

Then you better stop eating bananas, flying or having CTs scans because these activities will all give you doses of radiation greater than what you would receive outside of the fukushima plant.

I really don't understand how you can go through life with such an insanely low level of risk tolerance. Do you live in a underground bunker somewhere?

Edited March 23, 2011 by TimG

[no1ninja]

Then you better stop eating bananas, flying or having CTs scans because these activities will all give you doses of radiation greater than what you would receive outside of the fukushima plant.

I really don't understand how you can go through life with such an insanely low level of risk tolerance. Do you live in a underground bunker somewhere?

The funny thing about radiation is that it is cumulative. So a bit here and bit there adds to the risk. Radiation effects us whether we see it or not.

Dog shit on your living room floor won't do any damage to you either.

Edited March 23, 2011 by no1ninja

[TimG]

The funny thing about radiation is that it is cumulative. So a bit here and bit there adds to the risk. Radiation effects us whether we see it or not.

It is only cumulative over a period of time because the effect of exposures decays exponentially. Having 10 CT scans in one year will exceed the limit allowed for US radiation workers but 10 CT scans over 10 years will not. That is why a large temporary spike in radiation can have no noticeable long term effect.

[GostHacked]

Then you better stop eating bananas, flying or having CTs scans because these activities will all give you doses of radiation greater than what you would receive outside of the fukushima plant.

I really don't understand how you can go through life with such an insanely low level of risk tolerance. Do you live in a underground bunker somewhere?

We now see reports that the radiation levels from the back scatter machines are much higher than they initially said they were. And yes, the more CT scans you get the more likely chance you have of getting cancer.

So insanely low that Japan is even banning exports and even local consumption of the local foods. So low that the US FDA is banning foods from Japan. That is how INSANELY low it really is ... anyone with a brain can see through that.

You, like Post to the Left have both been proven wrong at every turn.

[GostHacked]

It is only cumulative over a period of time because the effect of exposures decays exponentially. Having 10 CT scans in one year will exceed the limit allowed for US radiation workers but 10 CT scans over 10 years will not. That is why a large temporary spike in radiation can have no noticeable long term effect.

Considering some of the half-lives of certain radiation is in decades and centuries, it definitely is cumulative and WILL have effects later in life.

[TimG]

So insanely low that Japan is even banning exports and even local consumption of the local foods. So low that the US FDA is banning foods from Japan. That is how INSANELY low it really is ... anyone with a brain can see through that.

Sorry. Officials caving into the demands of paranoid dimwits does not mean the food is actually a risk. In the US case a blanket ban on all food from Japan is nothing but protectionism.

In any case, you have yet to provide any evidence that there is actually any real harm from radition outside of the immediate area in Japan.

Edited March 23, 2011 by TimG

[bud]

Sorry. Officials caving into the demands of paranoid dimwits does not mean the food is actually a risk. In the US case a blanket ban on all food from Japan is nothing but protectionism.

In any case, you have yet to provide any evidence that there is actually any real harm from radition outside of the immediate area in Japan.

would you allow your child or a child you know to drink from the tokyo tap water?

Tokyo's tap water is unfit for babies to drink after radiation from Japan's quake-hit nuclear plant affected the capital's water supply, officials said.

link

[TimG]

would you allow your child or a child you know to drink from the tokyo tap water?

I have yet to find any useful analysis on quantities found. I doubt there is any significant risk due to the huge volume of tap water that is consumed in tokyo daily (i.e. they made a measurement in one location in a resevoir that was elevated - once measured they had to issue the warning even if there was no real risk due to dilution).

Some context for the radiation levels being reported:

Edited March 23, 2011 by TimG

[bush_cheney2004]

would you allow your child or a child you know to drink from the tokyo tap water?

Yes....please send me some. I'm still waiting to die after last year's Gulf Oil spill tainted crawdads and entered the food chain. Pass the hot sauce, please!

[bud]

I have yet to find any useful analysis on quantities found. I doubt there is any significant risk due to the huge volume of tap water that is consumed in tokyo daily (i.e. they made a measurement in one location in a resevoir that was elevated - once measured they had to issue the warning even if there was no real risk due to dilution).

Some context for the radiation levels being reported:

i realize that there is a lot of exaggeration in the risks involving the radiation and how the media is trying really hard to create a story that isn't really there. but when the levels of radiation found to be twice the safe level, there should be some concern and any parent should make sure that their child does not drink the water.

[no1ninja]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but the incident is ongoing, is it not? From what I know of radiation, those levels can very easily go up. If there is a leak somewhere who is to say it is not on going?

[TimG]

but when the levels of radiation found to be twice the safe level, there should be some concern and any parent should make sure that their child does not drink the water.

Let goto Japan to get some accurate information:

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110324a1.html

"The level is not dangerous unless you keep drinking the water for a long period of time," Yoshida told a news conference. "If there is nothing else to drink, you can let babies drink the water every once in a while."

"Iodine-131, when contained in water, can be removed to some extent by boiling it," the team said.

Gee. Every few years we have boil water adviseries in Vancouver. I don't recall those being called a disaster. Annoying. But not a disaster. Why is this any different? Edited March 23, 2011 by TimG

[TimG]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but the incident is ongoing, is it not? From what I know of radiation, those levels can very easily go up. If there is a leak somewhere who is to say it is not on going?

You are correct. But the fact that it could get worse does not justify claiming it will get worse - the position taken by the easily panicked on this forum.