sharkman Posted March 7, 2011 Report Posted March 7, 2011 Uh, that's not success. It's a media stunt to draw attention to a serious issue. Quote
wyly Posted March 7, 2011 Report Posted March 7, 2011 Uh, that's not success. It's a media stunt to draw attention to a serious issue. ya the media doesn't care when the healthcare system works well because that just isn't newsworthy...here's two incidents that will never make the evening news...1st-my brother gets violently sick on a tuesday, sees a MD in walk-in clinic the next day, Thursday he's checked in to a hospital, Friday he has emergency surgery for intestinal cancer... 2nd-I've been feeling out of sorts for the last week since I recovered from a cold, today I woke up with the side of my face doubled in size, I decide to wait until tomorrow and make an appointment to see my MD, speaking with my MD friend on the phone he tells no, go to an ER or a walk-in asap...I go to a walk-in and the place is deserted the MD is just standing there chatting with his help, I'm in in less than a minute the MD gives me a prescription for antibiotics and a booking for a CT Scan and I'm out the door in no more than 5 minutes , 20 minutes later I have my antibiotics for $3.72(ya I couldn't believe it either)...now I know that doesn't happen everyday but the point is the media will have zero interest in either my brothers or my experiences, good news doesn't sell as well as bad... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Pliny Posted March 7, 2011 Report Posted March 7, 2011 Uh, that's not success. It's a media stunt to draw attention to a serious issue. It was a media stunt. It's a cry for more "resources" - the only thing that can fix it. Quote I want to be in the class that ensures the classless society remains classless.
bloodyminded Posted March 7, 2011 Report Posted March 7, 2011 ya the media doesn't care when the healthcare system works well because that just isn't newsworthy...here's two incidents that will never make the evening news... 1st-my brother gets violently sick on a tuesday, sees a MD in walk-in clinic the next day, Thursday he's checked in to a hospital, Friday he has emergency surgery for intestinal cancer... 2nd-I've been feeling out of sorts for the last week since I recovered from a cold, today I woke up with the side of my face doubled in size, I decide to wait until tomorrow and make an appointment to see my MD, speaking with my MD friend on the phone he tells no, go to an ER or a walk-in asap...I go to a walk-in and the place is deserted the MD is just standing there chatting with his help, I'm in in less than a minute the MD gives me a prescription for antibiotics and a booking for a CT Scan and I'm out the door in no more than 5 minutes , 20 minutes later I have my antibiotics for $3.72(ya I couldn't believe it either)...now I know that doesn't happen everyday but the point is the media will have zero interest in either my brothers or my experiences, good news doesn't sell as well as bad... I know; me and my children have both had excellent situations when it comes to medical care. Now, if people say "but anecdotal evidence is not always too useful," I'm happy to agree with them; except it's the primary device used to expose how "rotten" our system is. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Wild Bill Posted March 7, 2011 Author Report Posted March 7, 2011 (edited) Our system may not be perfect, but at least the woman was treated and not refused aany care because she didn't have the correct coverage. You and Bryan both have done exactly what I predicted! You minimize the problem and make an allusion to a problem with an American style system! "Every time we have this debate a number of defenders will rant and rave about how these reports are few in number, purely anecdotal and of course "Aren't you glad we're not Americans?" It's as if we are so defensive about our system that we are incapable of admitting it has some problems and if you can't recognize you have a problem then you can't fix it!" You are contributing to the problem! Instead of recognizing there's a leak in the roof folks like you and Bryan call it "just a small hole, that only drips when it rains!". Then you talk about how at least in Canada we have a roof, unlike many Americans! For Pete's Sake, if there's something wrong why not recognize it and FIX it! Edited March 7, 2011 by Wild Bill Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
madmax Posted March 7, 2011 Report Posted March 7, 2011 Well, I can only speak for myself. I had a quadruple bypass and also was sent home after 5 days. I had the pillow and listened to all the precautions. My buddie had Quintuple bypass 2 years ago. He was out in 4 days and showed up on the 5th day, with a pillow on his chest. He was looking for work. True Story. Quote
wyly Posted March 7, 2011 Report Posted March 7, 2011 You and Bryan both have done exactly what I predicted! You minimize the problem and make an allusion to a problem with an American style system! "Every time we have this debate a number of defenders will rant and rave about how these reports are few in number, purely anecdotal and of course "Aren't you glad we're not Americans?" It's as if we are so defensive about our system that we are incapable of admitting it has some problems and if you can't recognize you have a problem then you can't fix it!" You are contributing to the problem! Instead of recognizing there's a leak in the roof folks like you and Bryan call it "just a small hole, that only drips when it rains!". Then you talk about how at least in Canada we have a roof, unlike many Americans! For Pete's Sake, if there's something wrong why not recognize it and FIX it! certainly problem issues should be corrected but recognize they are not indicative of the entire system and let's not have media sensationalism become an excuse for private healthcare...for every annoying incident there are many thousands of unreported good experiences... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
eyeball Posted March 7, 2011 Report Posted March 7, 2011 (edited) Yet our medical system will get worse than this incident shows. Money is at the heart of the issue, and the baby boomer generation. Anyone who says different has rose coloured glasses on. The billions of dollars some Canadians are happily poised to throw at crime despite the fact crime is falling makes me wonder why or even if money is the real issue here. Interestingly enough most of the drop in crime can be attributed to the same reason there is a rise in the need for health care. The boomer's are getting older. Edited March 7, 2011 by eyeball Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
madmax Posted March 18, 2011 Report Posted March 18, 2011 I know so many people getting top notch medical care here and quick service that it is always troubling to see someone fall through the cracks. I had to use our medical services this year. I was in and out in under 1 hour, and that includes, seeing the doctor, getting my prescriptions filled and having xrays done. The looked up the last time I used their services... it was 1997 lol. Meanwhile, I know so many people with Cancer, heart surgery etc, and they are getting super care and treatment. Quote
Shwa Posted March 18, 2011 Report Posted March 18, 2011 I know so many people getting top notch medical care here and quick service that it is always troubling to see someone fall through the cracks. I had to use our medical services this year. I was in and out in under 1 hour, and that includes, seeing the doctor, getting my prescriptions filled and having xrays done. The looked up the last time I used their services... it was 1997 lol. Meanwhile, I know so many people with Cancer, heart surgery etc, and they are getting super care and treatment. I know a woman who broker her hand on a Tuesday night, was into the fracture clinic on the Wednesday and into surgery on the Thursday. Mind you, she had to wait a few hours to get the surgery. All this at the region's busiest hospital at the time of year when it seems everyone and their gramma is breaking their hands or wrists. Quote
Wild Bill Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Posted March 18, 2011 I know a woman who broker her hand on a Tuesday night, was into the fracture clinic on the Wednesday and into surgery on the Thursday. Mind you, she had to wait a few hours to get the surgery. All this at the region's busiest hospital at the time of year when it seems everyone and their gramma is breaking their hands or wrists. Not surprising. If 80% of the time the system is working then it's very easy to find success stories. My point is simple. Even if only 20% are falling through the cracks we should recognize that 20% and seek to improve the figure, not deny it's happening and just tell those disadvantaged patients that they should be glad that at least they're not Americans! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Shwa Posted March 18, 2011 Report Posted March 18, 2011 Not surprising. If 80% of the time the system is working then it's very easy to find success stories. My point is simple. Even if only 20% are falling through the cracks we should recognize that 20% and seek to improve the figure, not deny it's happening and just tell those disadvantaged patients that they should be glad that at least they're not Americans! Yes, your point is indeed "simple." Quote
Shakeyhands Posted March 18, 2011 Report Posted March 18, 2011 perhaps we should spend the money earmarked for the "Crime" bill and put it in to Healthcare... Quote "They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." - Friedrich Nietzsche
wyly Posted March 18, 2011 Report Posted March 18, 2011 perhaps we should spend the money earmarked for the "Crime" bill and put it in to Healthcare... or some of that 30 billion destined for stars wars fighters we'll never need... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
scouterjim Posted March 18, 2011 Report Posted March 18, 2011 or some of that 30 billion destined for stars wars fighters we'll never need... Or some of the billions spent on welfare for healthy individuals who choose to suck off the government rather than work. Quote I have captured the rare duct taped platypus.
Scotty Posted March 18, 2011 Report Posted March 18, 2011 certainly problem issues should be corrected but recognize they are not indicative of the entire system and let's not have media sensationalism become an excuse for private healthcare...for every annoying incident there are many thousands of unreported good experiences... The government's own statistics show that it IS the entire system. Waits to get into ERs exceed 10 hours in many places. Waits for tests or important surgery can be months, even years (current wait time for an MRI in Ottawa is over one year). The wait time for a bed in an acute care facility is 231 days - which is one of the reasons hospital beds are filled with sick elderly people. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
guyser Posted March 18, 2011 Report Posted March 18, 2011 Waits to get into ERs exceed 10 hours in many places. Then Mom should take lil Jenny to walk in clinic for her sniffles. Waits for tests or important surgery can be months, even years Yes, that limb hanging off the guy who severed it will wait a year....ya know, at best. Arm should still be good, wouldnt it? Cant recall, is that irony or sarcasm? Quote
Shakeyhands Posted March 18, 2011 Report Posted March 18, 2011 The government's own statistics show that it IS the entire system. Waits to get into ERs exceed 10 hours in many places. Waits for tests or important surgery can be months, even years (current wait time for an MRI in Ottawa is over one year). The wait time for a bed in an acute care facility is 231 days - which is one of the reasons hospital beds are filled with sick elderly people. Can you imagine what $9B would do for our HealthCare system??? Quote "They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Scotty Posted March 18, 2011 Report Posted March 18, 2011 Then Mom should take lil Jenny to walk in clinic for her sniffles. Do you really think people are going to ERs to wait for 10 hours for sniffles? Yes, that limb hanging off the guy who severed it will wait a year....ya know, at best. Arm should still be good, wouldnt it? Cant recall, is that irony or sarcasm? Ignorance. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted March 18, 2011 Report Posted March 18, 2011 (edited) Can you imagine what $9B would do for our HealthCare system??? Ontario increased health care funding by about $9 Billion under McGunity. Some much-watched waiting lists have declined but others have increased. It has not resulted in any dramatic improvements. If we take this as a model for the country, increasing health funding by $30 billion across the country would also not result in dramatic improvements. We'd have to look at something like a $60-$100 billion annual spending increase to be reasonably sure we'd get marked improvements. Edited March 18, 2011 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
guyser Posted March 18, 2011 Report Posted March 18, 2011 Do you really think people are going to ERs to wait for 10 hours for sniffles? Yes I do.....see it , told all about it from Dr's and Nurses. Have friends who tell me thier wives have done it. Happens all the time. Ignorance. Probably sarcasm. Lighten up buttercup. No one waits years for important surgery. But hey, hyperbole works for you so have at it. Quote
Scotty Posted March 18, 2011 Report Posted March 18, 2011 Yes I do.....see it , told all about it from Dr's and Nurses. Have friends who tell me thier wives have done it. Happens all the time. What happens all the time is people waiting 10 hours to have broken limbs set. No one waits years for important surgery. But hey, hyperbole works for you so have at it. Six seconds of googling brought the following: The survey response rate was 85%. All centres determined whether patients were eligible for bariatric surgery based on the National Institutes of Health criteria. Patients entered the queue as “office contacts” and moved through the queue, with the exit point being completion of the procedure. In 2007, a total of 6783 patients were waiting for bariatric surgery and 1313 procedures were performed in Canada. Assuming these trends are maintained, the calculated average waiting time for bariatric surgery in Canada is just over 5 years bariatric surgery wait 5 years Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
dre Posted March 18, 2011 Report Posted March 18, 2011 Not surprising. If 80% of the time the system is working then it's very easy to find success stories. My point is simple. Even if only 20% are falling through the cracks we should recognize that 20% and seek to improve the figure, not deny it's happening and just tell those disadvantaged patients that they should be glad that at least they're not Americans! I dont think most people are doing that. Most people realize that theres some problems with our system, and that some of the wait times are not acceptable to a lot of people. But in general I think we get roughly the value we should get for what we spend. Iv been watching over the years stats on how much country spends, and where they get ranked, and Iv seen Canada everywhere from 4th to 30th in rankings. If you look at what we spend we're about 15th. Found some stats right here. # 1 United States: 4,271 # 2 Switzerland: 3,857 # 3 Norway: 3,182 # 4 Denmark: 2,785 # 5 Luxembourg: 2,731 # 6 Iceland: 2,701 # 7 Germany: 2,697 # 8 France: 2,288 # 9 Japan: 2,243 # 10 Netherlands: 2,173 # 11 Sweden: 2,145 # 12 Belgium: 2,137 # 13 Austria: 2,121 # 14 Canada: 1,939 # 15 Australia: 1,714 # 16 Finland: 1,704 # 17 Italy: 1,676 # 18 United Kingdom: 1,675 # 19 Israel: 1,607 # 20 Ireland: 1,569 If you look at the countries ahead of us in spending, and then cross-index against global healthcare rankings you will see that the countries that do BETTER than us generally have a similar system but spend more money. Theres some exceptions but no many. It seems like top-notch healthcare costs about 2200-2800 dollars per person, and we only spend 2000. We get B grade healthcare for B-grade dollars. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
guyser Posted March 19, 2011 Report Posted March 19, 2011 What happens all the time is people waiting 10 hours to have broken limbs set. All the time huh? Well , we both know that isnt true. But when it is, I'm willing to bet there are valid reason for that. Overloading,regionalism,just plain busy..... True, we do need to address plenty in our system, but the starting point isnt 10 hrs cuz Jenny has a sniffle. Six seconds of googling brought the following: Six seconds, but probably 20 minutes of trying to find the perfect link to attempt to make a point. Im guessing you didnt think anyone would bother to read your link. The survey response rate was 85%. All centres determined whether patients were eligible for bariatric surgery based on the National Institutes of Health criteria. Patients entered the queue as “office contacts” and moved through the queue, with the exit point being completion of the procedure. In 2007, a total of 6783 patients were waiting for bariatric surgery and 1313 procedures were performed in Canada. Assuming these trends are maintained, the calculated average waiting time for bariatric surgery in Canada is just over 5 years bariatric surgery wait 5 years Let me translate. People entered the queue as "office contacts" means lardass was seen by their Dr....and the Dr. realized lardass was being lazy on the diet attempts.....start the clock now on lardass getting in for surgery, and it'll be some time too.....not many hoists in hospitals to get lardass up and on a table. You really want to back your arguement with lardass not getting a band around his stomach or a bypass of his small intestine? Although surgery is considered pretty successful for this condition, psychiatric screening is done first. Im betting psychiatric screening isnt done for open heart surgery/broken bones/brain surgery/cancer. Quote
Wild Bill Posted March 19, 2011 Author Report Posted March 19, 2011 All the time huh? Well , we both know that isnt true. But when it is, I'm willing to bet there are valid reason for that. Overloading,regionalism,just plain busy..... True, we do need to address plenty in our system, but the starting point isnt 10 hrs cuz Jenny has a sniffle. Six seconds, but probably 20 minutes of trying to find the perfect link to attempt to make a point. Im guessing you didnt think anyone would bother to read your link. Let me translate. People entered the queue as "office contacts" means lardass was seen by their Dr....and the Dr. realized lardass was being lazy on the diet attempts.....start the clock now on lardass getting in for surgery, and it'll be some time too.....not many hoists in hospitals to get lardass up and on a table. You really want to back your arguement with lardass not getting a band around his stomach or a bypass of his small intestine? Although surgery is considered pretty successful for this condition, psychiatric screening is done first. Im betting psychiatric screening isnt done for open heart surgery/broken bones/brain surgery/cancer. Guyser, there's some truth in what you say but it hardly covers the entire story. I've sat a number of times for hours in a Hamilton ER and seen what goes on. Do you have any kids yourself? If so, surely you know that kids NEVER run a fever during office hours! That eliminates going to a walk-in clinic. There's no other alternative than ER. What's more, a high fever is usually not that serious but it CAN be something like meningitis! So what else is a patient to do? What's more, refer to my opening post. The story was NOT about some lardass with the sniffles! Even if the 'lardasses' were clogging up the ER system surely after the DAYS she spent in the hallway they could have found her a real bed! Accepting that it's all the fault of frivolous visits is sure a great excuse to let politicians off the hook, however. If you're waiting for 10 hours with your leg hanging off they can just duck the issue and do absolutely nothing! "There is no problem! The system is perfect! It's just that some lardasses are abusing it! Of course, we are not going to turn the lardasses away ourselves! We're civil servants and can't do that!" So how do we fix the problem, Guyser? Seems to me you've left only one possible solution. Since we know that the hospital folks can't turn any citizen away then I guess we'll have to do it ourselves. If we are in emergency we will have to point out the lardasses and tell them "Hey! You're clogging up the system for the rest of us! Get the hell out of here!" Assuming that they are in much worse physical shape than ourselves, we will probably have to shove them outside ourselves. This should leave lots of spaces for REAL patients! I'm curious, however. If we're wrong about a lardass having just a case of the sniffles and they actually die from something serious, could we be sued? Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
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