Wild Bill Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 Here's the link: http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/canada/woman_spends_36_hours_in_hallway_after_surgery/8341cb36 "The hospital made national headlines earlier this week when the facility's emergency room became so overcrowded that ER staff had to take over a Tim Hortons restaurant in the hospital for the extra room to treat patients. The middle-aged woman said she had pancreatic surgery Feb. 25 and had to begin her recovery behind privacy screens in a bed in a hospital hallway for a day and a half because no rooms were available. "I was promised that I would get equal care to those that were in the other rooms but that was not so," she said. Joanne said she was in excruciating pain, but there was no way to call a nurse. "I had to use my cellphone to call the main desk at Royal Columbian Hospital to be transferred to the nursing station to get my nurse to come and find me," she said." Now I know that stuff happens and that in some areas of the country the care is so good that you're cured before you even go to the hospital (at least, that's the way it sounds from some rabid defenders we've seen before on this board) but that's not the point. Every time we have this debate a number of defenders will rant and rave about how these reports are few in number, purely anecdotal and of course "Aren't you glad we're not Americans?" It's as if we are so defensive about our system that we are incapable of admitting it has some problems and if you can't recognize you have a problem then you can't fix it! Here in Hamilton a local hospital, like most others, has been gradually cutting back on the cleaning budget. Anyone who visits over years and has a memory can see it. Now they've had over 16 patients die with C. Difficile, over half acquired during their stay in the hospital. Isn't it about time we stop substituting American bashing for constructive criticism of our own system and keep it running correctly? Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Michael Hardner Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 (edited) As much as I'd like to hold this up as an example of why our system is bad, it could conceivably be an exception to the rule. It will get a lot of attention, though, and that is the problem. STORIES make the news, not facts. The facts about healthcare are released every month by provincial health ministries. Who pays attention ? I have joined a few new initiatives out there that are trying to turn things around, including the OMA discussion board and the new 'Patients Association of Canada'. An informed and motivated public can help - so I especially agree with your last point: Isn't it about time we stop substituting American bashing for constructive criticism of our own system and keep it running correctly? Edited March 5, 2011 by Michael Hardner Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
sharkman Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 (edited) I think no matter what revelations occur, some people will blindly cling to the notion that our system is above reproach. Here's a question for you. How long should a patient(typically an older one obviously) be given to recover after open heart surgery? This is the type of surgery in which they crack open your chest to work on the arteries around the heart. Afterwards, the ribs and sternum are held together with staples and such to promote the joining of the bone, and they warn you not to move around the bed or to get up in the usual way as this can re-open the sawed bone. 2 weeks, is that enough time? How about if the patient didn't have a single or triple or quadruple by-pass, but a 5 artery by-pass? Is 2 weeks enough? How about if the patient(my father) is 74 years old at the time? "2 weeks, is that all they gave him?" No, they released him after 4 days. They knew he would be driven by car from the Vancouver area(Burnaby, where the hospital is located) to Grand Forks, B.C. which is at least a 6 hour drive with several mountain passes. They gave him a pillow to put between his chest and the seatbelt. This story didn't make the news, because it's the norm, they all get released after 4-5 days. Yet our medical system will get worse than this incident shows. Money is at the heart of the issue, and the baby boomer generation. Anyone who says different has rose coloured glasses on. Edited March 5, 2011 by sharkman Quote
Michael Hardner Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 I think no matter what revelations occur, some people will blindly cling to the notion that our system is above reproach. Agreed. On a recent podcast I asked the host what they thought of the Canadian system and within 30 seconds she was talking about the American system. She's a friend, so I felt bad about calling her on it, but there you ahve it. Here's a question for you. How long should a patient(typically an older one obviously) be given to recover after open heart surgery? This is the type of surgery in which they crack open your chest to work on the arteries around the heart. Afterwards, the ribs and sternum are held together with staples and such to promote the joining of the bone, and they warn you not to move around the bed or to get up in the usual way as this can re-open the sawed bone. 2 weeks, is that enough time? How about if the patient didn't have a single or triple or quadruple by-pass, but a 5 artery by-pass? Is 2 weeks enough? How about if the patient(my father) is 74 years old at the time? "2 weeks, is that all they gave him?" No, they released him after 4 days. They knew he would be driven by car from the Vancouver area(Burnaby, where the hospital is located) to Grand Forks, B.C. which is at least a 6 hour drive with several mountain passes. They gave him a pillow to put between his chest and the seatbelt. This story didn't make the news, because it's the norm, they all get released after 4-5 days. I like your example. Democracy doesn't and shouldn't decide the length of hospital stays. Yet our medical system will get worse than this incident shows. Money is at the heart of the issue, and the baby boomer generation. Anyone who says different has rose coloured glasses on. Will it ? I submit that we need a commons of health care summary information that a selection of the public buys into and reads. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
wyly Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 I think no matter what revelations occur, some people will blindly cling to the notion that our system is above reproach. Here's a question for you. How long should a patient(typically an older one obviously) be given to recover after open heart surgery? This is the type of surgery in which they crack open your chest to work on the arteries around the heart. Afterwards, the ribs and sternum are held together with staples and such to promote the joining of the bone, and they warn you not to move around the bed or to get up in the usual way as this can re-open the sawed bone. 2 weeks, is that enough time? How about if the patient didn't have a single or triple or quadruple by-pass, but a 5 artery by-pass? Is 2 weeks enough? How about if the patient(my father) is 74 years old at the time? "2 weeks, is that all they gave him?" No, they released him after 4 days. They knew he would be driven by car from the Vancouver area(Burnaby, where the hospital is located) to Grand Forks, B.C. which is at least a 6 hour drive with several mountain passes. They gave him a pillow to put between his chest and the seatbelt. This story didn't make the news, because it's the norm, they all get released after 4-5 days. Yet our medical system will get worse than this incident shows. Money is at the heart of the issue, and the baby boomer generation. Anyone who says different has rose coloured glasses on. you're not an MD so really you qualified to judge?....once out of post op danger your father can heal up just as well at home...in europe it's quite common for women to have babies at home here we coddle them with hospital time, unless there are complications there is no need for hospital time for either mother of baby...I've had several surgeries on my knees the first time the MD wanted to have me in the hospital for a week I insisted on leaving at 4 days, the last surgery for the same issue I was in the OR at 9am and released at 9pm the same day, no problems and no complaints... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 I like your example. Democracy doesn't and shouldn't decide the length of hospital stays. technology changes and we've become a nation of softies...my brother had his gall bladder removed 30 years ago he was in hospital for a week, now gall bladder surgery is a routine in and out in one day... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Shakeyhands Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 I think no matter what revelations occur, some people will blindly cling to the notion that our system is above reproach. Even the most loyal status quo supporter knows there is always room for improvement with our care system. I've never had anything but the best care here. I suppose the real question is which system are you refering to? Is it the payment system or the care system? Nothing is ever perfect. Quote "They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Wild Bill Posted March 5, 2011 Author Report Posted March 5, 2011 you're not an MD so really you qualified to judge?....once out of post op danger your father can heal up just as well at home...in europe it's quite common for women to have babies at home here we coddle them with hospital time, unless there are complications there is no need for hospital time for either mother of baby...I've had several surgeries on my knees the first time the MD wanted to have me in the hospital for a week I insisted on leaving at 4 days, the last surgery for the same issue I was in the OR at 9am and released at 9pm the same day, no problems and no complaints... Well, I can only speak for myself. I had a quadruple bypass and also was sent home after 5 days. I had the pillow and listened to all the precautions. It's been 3 years and my sternum has still not properly knitted! when I twist my body or sleep on it wrong I can feel it pop and move out of alignment. It is not dangerous but rather aggravating. It certainly bars me from any heavy lifting jobs. At least I didn't catch any C. difficile... Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
wyly Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 Well, I can only speak for myself. I had a quadruple bypass and also was sent home after 5 days. I had the pillow and listened to all the precautions. It's been 3 years and my sternum has still not properly knitted! when I twist my body or sleep on it wrong I can feel it pop and move out of alignment. It is not dangerous but rather aggravating. It certainly bars me from any heavy lifting jobs. At least I didn't catch any C. difficile... but being in the hospital wouldn't made a difference your body either heals itself or it doesn't hospitals don't have any magical properties that promote healing...staying in a hospital is good place to get an infection your home is a safer place to recover...I don't know if this is standard in cases like yours but did any health care people drop in to check on your progress? Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Wild Bill Posted March 5, 2011 Author Report Posted March 5, 2011 but being in the hospital wouldn't made a difference your body either heals itself or it doesn't hospitals don't have any magical properties that promote healing...staying in a hospital is good place to get an infection your home is a safer place to recover...I don't know if this is standard in cases like yours but did any health care people drop in to check on your progress? There was some home care. A "newbie nurse" would stop by every couple of days to check my bandages. Unfortunately, that wasn't often enough with those kinds of bandages so my wife and I were forced to learn how to do it between times ourselves. Also, they worked for a contractor instead of the hospital. That meant they would make an appointment to make sure we were home and then likely not show up. Still, since I was careful, had my own bandages changed and didn't try any back flips or river dancing it was all "no big deal". Again, this was my own experience. For someone who might have been older, more infirm or less capable I have no idea if the service was adequate or not. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
sharkman Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 (edited) but being in the hospital wouldn't made a difference your body either heals itself or it doesn't hospitals don't have any magical properties that promote healing...staying in a hospital is good place to get an infection your home is a safer place to recover...I don't know if this is standard in cases like yours but did any health care people drop in to check on your progress? So I take it you are a doctor? I agree that no magic occurs in a hospital, though I don't understand what such a comment adds to the conversation. If the hospital has no place in the promotion of healing, why have any stay at all? Obviously it is needed. I have broken a bone, and it took much longer than five days to become strong enough to properly begin mending. A sternum is a major deal, and four days is a joke. Then there is monitoring for infection of the operation, the corrected arteries, the heart and ensuring that the patient stays on his/her back long enough to have the bone start to mend. Four or five days stay is simply a cost cutting measure and it is disgusting. You are missing the point. What used to be the norm for recovery has been whittled down drastically while the dollars spent on our medical system has gone up drastically. We are getting far less for our dollar per visit because so many more need such medical visits. It was not discovered that open heart surgery needs less time than previously thought, it was decided that instead of building more capacity into the system, they would send patients home at a much earlier stage of their recovery. If you want to argue this ia a good thing, you should at least take off your rose coloured glasses and try to be objective. How do you know whether a longer stay with proper monitoring would not have helped Wild Bill's sternum? Edited March 5, 2011 by sharkman Quote
Smallc Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 You are missing the point. What used to be the norm for recovery has been whittled down drastically Because things have improved. There isn't the need (or the desire) for long hospital stays anymore. Quote
Shwa Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 (edited) I think no matter what revelations occur, some people will blindly cling to the notion that our system is above reproach. Here's a question for you. How long should a patient(typically an older one obviously) be given to recover after open heart surgery? 3-5 days according to the University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics: How long is the hospital stay for min. invasive surgery as compared to regular surgery? Being a new technology, the data is not entirely clear in this regard. However, a recent publication has compared a hospital stay off-pump coronary bypass grafting to traditional coronary bypass grafting. The off-pump group was discharged on an average of 3 1/2 days postoperatively compared to an average of 5 days postoperative for traditional bypass. According to this 2002 study most got out in under 5 days: Results. Overall, 53% of CABG patients were discharged within 5 days of CABG, whereas 5% required prolonged (>14 days) stays. More than 25 preoperative patient factors were independently associated with a patients likelihood for early discharge and prolonged stay (model C index 0.70 and 0.75, respectively). After adjusting for patient factors, however, there remained wide unexplained variability among hospitals in PLOS and limited correlation between these PLOS metrics and hospitals risk-adjusted mortality results (Spearman correlation coefficient -0.15 and 0.35). But I suppose it depends on the health of patient, from what I read, when I did a simple Google search. But alas, both cites above are from American Institutions, really doesn't say anything about out health care system does it? Edited March 6, 2011 by Shwa Quote
Scotty Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 Unfortunately, I don't see it getting better before it gets worse. A major factor is the number of seniors filling hospital beds because they can't go home alone in their weakened condition, and are nearly total lack of effort at expanding either full-time or temporary spaces in nursing homes for seniors. As the number of seniors ages more and more hospital beds will be clogged with them until we keep throwing out politicians who gloss over the problem and find someone to actually roll up their arms and do something about it. In Ontario and Quebec, you will hear nothing whatever from the provincial Liberal governments about senior care. And, of course, it's a provincial matter, so you're not likely to find anyone at the federal level willing to intrude on a tricky, expensive problem - unless we demand they do. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
wyly Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) In Ontario and Quebec, you will hear nothing whatever from the provincial Liberal governments about senior care. And, of course, it's a provincial matter, so you're not likely to find anyone at the federal level willing to intrude on a tricky, expensive problem - unless we demand they do.and what happens to any politician and his party that asks for a tax increase to cover added expenses for care of the boomers?...you can't expect to have better technology, medical research and the boomer demographic on a fixed amount of funds...sure everyone wants the perfect system until it comes time to pay for it... Edited March 6, 2011 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 So I take it you are a doctor?nope just well informed through my numerous family and friends in medicine...I agree that no magic occurs in a hospital, though I don't understand what such a comment adds to the conversation. If the hospital has no place in the promotion of healing, why have any stay at all? Obviously it is needed. I have broken a bone, and it took much longer than five days to become strong enough to properly begin mending. A sternum is a major deal, and four days is a joke. Then there is monitoring for infection of the operation, the corrected arteries, the heart and ensuring that the patient stays on his/her back long enough to have the bone start to mend. Four or five days stay is simply a cost cutting measure and it is disgusting.other than for immediate post op care there isn't any point in being in the hospital, your body will heal just as fast at home with less chance of infection...bones heal at the same rate some like the sternum are more sensitive to movement because they can't be isolated or immobilized like a leg can...the sooner a person is back on their feet the better, long periods of immobilization in a hospital bed makes you weaker not stronger...How do you know whether a longer stay with proper monitoring would not have helped Wild Bill's sternum?because nurses, physiotherapists and MDs tell me it is...they want you on your feet as soon as possible, when muscles are inactive they atrophy at an alarming rate rehab and a full recovery then becomes a much longer process... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
sharkman Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 3-5 days according to the University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics: According to this 2002 study most got out in under 5 days: But I suppose it depends on the health of patient, from what I read, when I did a simple Google search. But alas, both cites above are from American Institutions, really doesn't say anything about out health care system does it? No, it doesn't. I don't know if you remember our health care before Chretien saw fit to cut the hell out of it, which started putting major pressure on the system and health care professionals. Studies are fine, but you can get stats to say anything you want them to say, no doubt the Liberals got 'studies' done as well to support their approach to health care. Although if you are going to use quotes from research, please include the links to support your position. For instance, with the quotes you've given, very little of the criteria and determining factors of patients' release is shown, so it doesn't exactly help. Quote
sharkman Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 nope just well informed through my numerous family and friends in medicine... other than for immediate post op care there isn't any point in being in the hospital, your body will heal just as fast at home with less chance of infection...bones heal at the same rate some like the sternum are more sensitive to movement because they can't be isolated or immobilized like a leg can...the sooner a person is back on their feet the better, long periods of immobilization in a hospital bed makes you weaker not stronger... because nurses, physiotherapists and MDs tell me it is...they want you on your feet as soon as possible, when muscles are inactive they atrophy at an alarming rate rehab and a full recovery then becomes a much longer process... Thanks for your opinions, but I was hoping for more than third person word of mouth. Quote
wyly Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) Thanks for your opinions, but I was hoping for more than third person word of mouth. and what "person" are your opinions?...my experiences are firsthand knowledge, my friends and family and medical personnel don't lie to me... unless you're claiming a there's a huge medical conspiracy in two provinces feeding me identical disinformation... Edited March 6, 2011 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
lukin Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 Thanks for your opinions, but I was hoping for more than third person word of mouth. Wyly makes up plenty to make himself look good on a faceless forum. He has a family member who does this, and another who does that . He is a chronic bullshitter and his posts should be read for entertainment purpose only. In no way should you take him seriously. Quote
Shwa Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) No, it doesn't. I don't know if you remember our health care before Chretien saw fit to cut the hell out of it, which started putting major pressure on the system and health care professionals. But these studies seem to show that heart surgery hospital stay times are anywhere from 5 to 7 days in the US. And plenty of links I didn't cite, after a reasonably simple Google search, revealed this to be the common window with the idea that the healthier the patient, the shorter the stay. So it would seem from a glance, that the majority of the data is actually about the patient care requirements and not about Chretien or major pressure on the system. Your equating the treatment of your father with politics and that is a false argument. Studies are fine, but you can get stats to say anything you want them to say, no doubt the Liberals got 'studies' done as well to support their approach to health care. Although if you are going to use quotes from research, please include the links to support your position. I fixed the post. I had links in, but the url syntax was malformed. Go back and have a read and the information you are looking for is there. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with patient care. For instance, with the quotes you've given, very little of the criteria and determining factors of patients' release is shown, so it doesn't exactly help. I have a friend who works in the quality management department in a large hospital in a large US city. I was recently given insight into their process of evaluation of patient care quality. Each hospital is audited once or twice a year by an independent body that makes their reports available to the insurance companies and will post those statistics and evaluations on-line for patients to check for themselves. Now they collect extensive data on a hospitals infection rate, death rate and a litany of other statistics that are kept and compiled by the hospital from each patient's chart. Basically if they miss the mark, the insurance companies won't pay for the services and the hospital starts to loose funding. In other words - the patient care data cited from a US perspective really doesn't care about Chretied, Liberals or politics, it is more interested in ensuring quality of care so they can keep getting paid for their services. Edited March 6, 2011 by Shwa Quote
sharkman Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 So you can't find any Canadian data? That's funny, neither can I. I only found single case incidents where patients were kept for 2 weeks after bypass surgery in the early 80's, and that doesn't help very much. I still think that 5 days is not enough, and my father was released from 5 bypass surgery after 4 days, knowing he was facing a 6-7 hour road trip through winding mountain roads. At any rate, our medical system has changed drastically since the major cuts of the Liberals in the 90's and the baby boomer demand. You seem to find that there is nothing wrong with our system and everything is just fine. In BC, various hospitals in the lower mainland actually close their emergency doors to the public on occasion because they get completely overloaded. The situation that started this thread is another symptom. There are major issues with keeping up with demand because there isn't enough capacity. Using a restaurant because they've run out of room should be sending alarm bells, but we apathetic Canadians simply laugh and make coffee jokes. In Vancouver, the response to the problem that rose in the 90's was to build more capacity, and everyone loved the NDP government for their courage. Actually, no, that's not what happened. They permanently closed an entire hospital, and blamed the federal government for cutting funding. Our system is far from perfect. Quote
Shwa Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 So you can't find any Canadian data? That's funny, neither can I. I only found single case incidents where patients were kept for 2 weeks after bypass surgery in the early 80's, and that doesn't help very much. I still think that 5 days is not enough, and my father was released from 5 bypass surgery after 4 days, knowing he was facing a 6-7 hour road trip through winding mountain roads. No I can't find Canadian data off hand like the US data, but I already explained why their data is more open. However, the data for hospital stay times for patients with heart surgery is relevant to Canada since our medical systems tend to use the same methodologies. At any rate, our medical system has changed drastically since the major cuts of the Liberals in the 90's and the baby boomer demand. You seem to find that there is nothing wrong with our system and everything is just fine. In BC, various hospitals in the lower mainland actually close their emergency doors to the public on occasion because they get completely overloaded. The situation that started this thread is another symptom. There are major issues with keeping up with demand because there isn't enough capacity. Using a restaurant because they've run out of room should be sending alarm bells, but we apathetic Canadians simply laugh and make coffee jokes. No, not really. There will always been tweaks and adjustments for various systemic conditions that arise within our healthcare. What I am saying is that to use your dad's heart surgery experience and equate it with cuts made by the Liberals in the 90's is a spurious argument that can be dismissed outright. The data cited more or less proves that. In Vancouver, the response to the problem that rose in the 90's was to build more capacity, and everyone loved the NDP government for their courage. Actually, no, that's not what happened. They permanently closed an entire hospital, and blamed the federal government for cutting funding. Our system is far from perfect. Our system is far from perfect. But making spurious arguments in order to address the shortcomings is even more 'far from perfect.' Quote
scouterjim Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 Here's the link: http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/canada/woman_spends_36_hours_in_hallway_after_surgery/8341cb36 "The hospital made national headlines earlier this week when the facility's emergency room became so overcrowded that ER staff had to take over a Tim Hortons restaurant in the hospital for the extra room to treat patients. The middle-aged woman said she had pancreatic surgery Feb. 25 and had to begin her recovery behind privacy screens in a bed in a hospital hallway for a day and a half because no rooms were available. "I was promised that I would get equal care to those that were in the other rooms but that was not so," she said. Joanne said she was in excruciating pain, but there was no way to call a nurse. "I had to use my cellphone to call the main desk at Royal Columbian Hospital to be transferred to the nursing station to get my nurse to come and find me," she said." Now I know that stuff happens and that in some areas of the country the care is so good that you're cured before you even go to the hospital (at least, that's the way it sounds from some rabid defenders we've seen before on this board) but that's not the point. Every time we have this debate a number of defenders will rant and rave about how these reports are few in number, purely anecdotal and of course "Aren't you glad we're not Americans?" It's as if we are so defensive about our system that we are incapable of admitting it has some problems and if you can't recognize you have a problem then you can't fix it! Here in Hamilton a local hospital, like most others, has been gradually cutting back on the cleaning budget. Anyone who visits over years and has a memory can see it. Now they've had over 16 patients die with C. Difficile, over half acquired during their stay in the hospital. Isn't it about time we stop substituting American bashing for constructive criticism of our own system and keep it running correctly? Our system may not be perfect, but at least the woman was treated and not refused aany care because she didn't have the correct coverage. Quote I have captured the rare duct taped platypus.
Bryan Posted March 7, 2011 Report Posted March 7, 2011 Our system may not be perfect, but at least the woman was treated and not refused aany care because she didn't have the correct coverage. I agree. The "Tim Horton's ER" event is not a tragic event, it's a success story. Instead of just giving up and telling patients "sorry, we're full", or "sorry, no money", they did whatever it took to make sure everyone got the care they needed. Quote
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