jbg Posted March 4, 2011 Report Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) I, and I hope others of goodwill pray for this to be true. I'm skeptical but can only hope. Link, excerpts below: ***************** First, by and large, Arabs want what everyone else wants, a chance to better their lives and those of their children. The lack of opportunity and no political channel to relieve the pressure over the past two decades fed into political and religious extremism. Enhanced democracy brings enhanced prosperity, economic opportunity and civil society activity, which in turn degrade the allure of the extremism. The angst, insecurity and hopelessness that come with living in corrupt authoritarian societies can be channeled away from violence and prejudice in a world that offers economic and political opportunity as well as a more active and open civil society in which differing or minority opinion can be debated rather than violently suppressed. The teachings of tikkun olam should, at the very least, allow for an appreciation that Arabs are, at long last, attempting to repair their own world. Second, we need to recognize that the protests are not transitory. Structural changes in the region are happening. ******************* Third, the institutional changes can limit rather than encourage relations with the real boogeyman of the Middle East, the radical Iranian regime. The majority of Arabs fear the Iranian mullahs above all else. ******************* Edited March 4, 2011 by jbg Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
bud Posted March 4, 2011 Report Posted March 4, 2011 if israel supported democracy they would support palestinian self-determination and not prevent it. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
Mr.Canada Posted March 4, 2011 Report Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) if israel supported democracy they would support palestinian self-determination and not prevent it. I didn't even see the word Israel in that op. Edited March 4, 2011 by Mr.Canada Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
GostHacked Posted March 4, 2011 Report Posted March 4, 2011 I didn't even see the word Israel in that op. Perhaps read the article? Quote
jbg Posted March 4, 2011 Author Report Posted March 4, 2011 I didn't even see the word Israel in that op. Perhaps read the article? Thanks, GH. House Rules prohibit reproduction of entire articles. I picked out the excerpts I thought were important. The gist of the article is to urge Israelis to support democracy, not dictatorship, among Arabs. Assuming that's somewhat consonant with Israel's survival I heartily endorse that idea. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
M.Dancer Posted March 4, 2011 Report Posted March 4, 2011 if israel supported democracy they would support palestinian self-determination and not prevent it. If the Palestinians supported democracy, they would try to have one.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
GostHacked Posted March 4, 2011 Report Posted March 4, 2011 If the Palestinians supported democracy, they would try to have one.... They have been trying. Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 4, 2011 Report Posted March 4, 2011 They have been trying. Have they? I guess Hamas and Fatah murdering its opponents is just another form of democracy.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
bud Posted March 4, 2011 Report Posted March 4, 2011 If the Palestinians supported democracy, they would try to have one.... kind of tough to have a democracy in an open air prison. but then again, the palestinians have attempted and they did have a fair democratic election and israel and u.s. (by default) didn't approve of it. israel's version of democracy and peace for others doesn't really mesh well with what the real meaning of those words. for palestinians to have peace and democracy it would mean that israel would have to stop squashing the palestinians' attempt for self-determination. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 4, 2011 Report Posted March 4, 2011 ....for palestinians to have peace and democracy it would mean that israel would have to stop squashing the palestinians' attempt for self-determination. Well, look at the bright side....the Palestinians still have a fine model rocketry club! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
jbg Posted March 4, 2011 Author Report Posted March 4, 2011 but then again, the palestinians have attempted and they did have a fair democratic election and israel and u.s. (by default) didn't approve of it. israel's version of democracy and peace for others doesn't really mesh well with what the real meaning of those words.I guess if a people democratically elects a governemnt dedicated to making war on its more powerful neighbor they democratically accept the result, Operation Cast Lead.for palestinians to have peace and democracy it would mean that israel would have to stop squashing the palestinians' attempt for self-determination. And stop existing as well.Never again!!! Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
WIP Posted March 4, 2011 Report Posted March 4, 2011 Thanks, GH. House Rules prohibit reproduction of entire articles. I picked out the excerpts I thought were important. The gist of the article is to urge Israelis to support democracy, not dictatorship, among Arabs. Assuming that's somewhat consonant with Israel's survival I heartily endorse that idea. Could you explain why Israel voiced their support for Mubarak until he was forcibly removed? If the U.S. and Israel really cared about encouraging democracy, their foreign policy initiatives would demonstrate that fact. The opposite appears to be true, since both Israel and the U.S. prefer the reliable despot to the unpredictability of the democratic process. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
jbg Posted March 4, 2011 Author Report Posted March 4, 2011 Could you explain why Israel voiced their support for Mubarak until he was forcibly removed? Isn't it usual to support a recognized government as opposed to rebels? For better or worse Mubarak was recognized internationally as Egypt's President for many years.How would you feel if someone "recognized" the FLQ as Canada's government? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
bud Posted March 4, 2011 Report Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) I guess if a people democratically elects a governemnt dedicated to making war on its more powerful neighbor they democratically accept the result, Operation Cast Lead. hamas accepted a truce with israel and no rockets were fired from hamas, for months, until israel instigated and started the war. this shows that the rockets were not the reason for operation cast lead. israel wanted to get rid of hamas because israel would prefer a more corrupt regime in power, fatah. i can show all this information to be true, if you cared about the truth. but i won't waste my time digging up links to documents proving my comment. And stop existing as well.Never again!!! your crocodile tears may have worked at one point in history, but again, this is not about israel's existence or security, it is about israel's expansionism. Edited March 4, 2011 by bud Quote http://whoprofits.org/
bud Posted March 4, 2011 Report Posted March 4, 2011 Isn't it usual to support a recognized government as opposed to rebels? For better or worse Mubarak was recognized internationally as Egypt's President for many years. since when did israel care about what is recognized internationally? israel's settlements in the west bank and east jerusalem are recognized to be illegal internationally yet israel continues to violate international recognition of the 1967 border. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
eyeball Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 The gist of the article is to urge Israelis to support democracy, not dictatorship, among Arabs. Assuming that's somewhat consonant with Israel's survival I heartily endorse that idea. To bad the gist of the article wasn't that Israelis should actively call for an end to the support of dictators by countries far removed from the region, but it didn't even come close to doing that. I wouldn't waste much time praying this sort of platitudinous call for democracy will have as much impact in the "Arab Street" as the bullets the dictators have been hitting it with do. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
WIP Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 Isn't it usual to support a recognized government as opposed to rebels? For better or worse Mubarak was recognized internationally as Egypt's President for many years. How would you feel if someone "recognized" the FLQ as Canada's government? Which is not a fitting analogy. I wasn't asking why Israel didn't look for opposition movements in Egypt to support; I am asking why they decided that Mubarak was essential for Israeli security, and tried to lobby the U.S. to play a more active role in supporting Mubarak's regime even after it started becoming apparent that he had lost support within the Egyptian Military? Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
bloodyminded Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 (edited) Third, the institutional changes can limit rather than encourage relations with the real boogeyman of the Middle East, the radical Iranian regime. The majority of Arabs fear the Iranian mullahs above all else. But is this true? The only recent poll I've heard of is from the Brookings Institute, in which Arabs stated their perception that the United States and Israel remain their biggest threats (somewhere around 80% of the population), while 10% of Arabs thought Iran the biggest threat. Edited March 5, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
jbg Posted March 5, 2011 Author Report Posted March 5, 2011 But is this true? The only recent poll I've heard of is from the Brookings Institute, in which Arabs stated their perception that the United States and Israel remain their biggest threats (somewhere around 80% of the population), while 10% of Arabs thought Iran the biggest threat. I guess my aspiration is for Arabs to fear real enemies, not potential allies. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
bloodyminded Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 I guess my aspiration is for Arabs to fear real enemies, not potential allies. Well, it might be that the majority of Arabs simply don't understand their own lived reality as well as you understand it. I find the premise dubious. But it's beside my point here. Did the writer simply invent his little fact, which seems quite at odds with the information I've seen...or is there some other information of which I'm unaware? If so, I'd like to see it. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Scotty Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 Which is not a fitting analogy. I wasn't asking why Israel didn't look for opposition movements in Egypt to support; I am asking why they decided that Mubarak was essential for Israeli security, and tried to lobby the U.S. to play a more active role in supporting Mubarak's regime even after it started becoming apparent that he had lost support within the Egyptian Military? Saw one guy with his fancy new (laugh) RPG on the news, after some little dustup with Ghadaffi's boys. He is quoted as saying they want to finish Ghadaffi so they can go to Gaza and fight Israel. I don't think the illiterate rabble of Egypt and Libya care much about Iran. They fear and hate Israel. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
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