Police state part 2

[Saipan]

Three levels of government.

I.e. no rights.

Not only that. Any elevel of government - including large private corporations can charge you almost any amount of interest - up to the "legal" limit. Usually shark-loaning rate.

But if individual, say homeowner, sue tenant for any payment the judge will allow (if one gets lucky) 6% max.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Saipan

[Jack Weber]

How many times do we have to go over that one? You have a right to property in the face of other people....just not the government.

If you put Mr. No Facts/Non Sequitur on Ignore...You'll never have to go over it again!!!!

[Smallc]

Three levels of government.

Two actually. The cities have no constitutional rights except those granted by the provinces.

[Saipan]

Mafia make their own. And they do collect.

[GostHacked]

It was not focused upon and it should have been. However, the girl from Montreal said that one the police told her, "You have no rights we are under the martial law." The reporter then said that martial law was not authorized. It was brief and probably should have been hashed out further.

This entire situation makes me think of the Stanford Prison Experiment. If you are unaware of this research into the psychological effects of the prisoner-guard relationship, it's well worth taking a few minutes to read the Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

It's going to happen again if people don't wake up to that fact. The arrests were downright illegal. Imagine if there is a REAL crisis, and see how the thug cops react. I bet the cops were not even aware after the fact that they were never granted those special powers.

When it happens again, it will be worse.

[Scotty]

No, that's an underestimate of the training. Police training is muh more than the initial phase.

Really? Educate us then. Their web site says 12 weeks. Then they get their guns and go out into the streets to solve crimes.

[Saipan]

Really? Educate us then. Their web site says 12 weeks. Then they get their guns and go out into the streets to solve crimes.

The rest of us need at least one year in a gun club to buy a handgun.

[Smallc]

Really? Educate us then. Their web site says 12 weeks. Then they get their guns and go out into the streets to solve crimes.

They generally don't go out on their own though. There is a great deal of probationary on the job training. It does though, vary from department to department.

[myata]

This is beyong the point though. And the point is that, just like in Algeria:

1) The governments feel competent and authorised to shut down peaceful democratic dissent as opposed to protecting citizen's rights to it as could only be the case in a true democracy;

2) Just like in Algeria, police uses excessive brital force to suppress peaceful expression of opinion by people without legal or moral justification;

and,

3) Just like in Algeria (in its bad days) the society is numb about what's going on.

The rest is minor details and variations, marking various points in the descending progression. Yes, Algerian "security forces" may be (put qualifier here) nastier in treating those who dared to ignore governments prohibition and insist on their rights. How much does it matter though, in the big picture? If like a wordless herd we're moving to the condition where "one should stay home" if the government says so?

Get it finally. What we are is not because it's written somewhere on a sheet of paper, etc. It's what we do (or don't, when needed).

Edited February 27, 2011 by myata

[cybercoma]

Excellent post, myata. I couldn't agree more. And it's like the chap on the show with the beard was saying. Canada is not a terrible place to live. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. We're not *insert place that is much worse than Canada in terms of human rights*, but we shouldn't be just a little bit better than that. We should strive to be the best. This G20 situation is not Canada at its best, not even close. People have a nationalistic belief that we're the bastion of human rights and the protection of those rights around the world. And for the most part we are. However, we have to reconcile that with the reality that this is how we allowed our government to treat political dissenters. And very few are willing to do anything about it.

[GostHacked]

Excellent post, myata. I couldn't agree more. And it's like the chap on the show with the beard was saying. Canada is not a terrible place to live. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. We're not *insert place that is much worse than Canada in terms of human rights*, but we shouldn't be just a little bit better than that. We should strive to be the best. This G20 situation is not Canada at its best, not even close. People have a nationalistic belief that we're the bastion of human rights and the protection of those rights around the world. And for the most part we are. However, we have to reconcile that with the reality that this is how we allowed our government to treat political dissenters. And very few are willing to do anything about it.

Many are too busy with their blackberries and iphones, tv and other various forms of entertainment, which distracts them from what is happening in the real world.

I look at this stuff often enough, and people ask me if I got too much time on my hands. Yeah I do, after I had my cable tv disconnected.

[g_bambino]

Two actually. The cities have no constitutional rights except those granted by the provinces.

It's not even two "levels"; the provincial and federal governments are equal in confederation; the provinces aren't subordinate to Ottawa.

That said, what Sapian says makes no sense. Rights do not come in the absence of government. Civilised society requires each participant to sacrifice some amount of freedom to the implementation of law and order by a government. Ironically for Sapian, he may not be able to do as he pleases whenever he wishes, but democratic government and law do protect his most fundamental rights; without them, there would be anarchy and, if he weren't the biggest, strongest kid on the block, his "right" to do whatever he wants, including speak freely or even live, would be pretty quickly taken away by someone more powerful.

[+]

Edited February 27, 2011 by g_bambino

[g_bambino]

The governments feel competent and authorised to shut down peaceful democratic dissent as opposed to protecting citizen's rights to it as could only be the case in a true democracy;

You confuse, yet again, democracy and mob rule. Democracy doesn't mean a crowd of people can do as it pleases at will; there are other people in society to consider; those who may not agree with or care about what the crowd of demonstrators is demonstrating about are still equal citizens, with as much right to use a road or park as anyone else. Allowing masses to assemble wherever they want whenever they want is actually counter to the conduct of a democratic society; even the hallowed Charter of Rights and Freedoms clearly outlines at its opening that rights (which would include that to assemble) are "subject... to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."

[sp]

Edited February 27, 2011 by g_bambino

[Saipan]

Excellent post, myata. I couldn't agree more. And it's like the chap on the show with the beard was saying. Canada is not a terrible place to live. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. We're not *insert place that is much worse than Canada in terms of human rights*, but we shouldn't be just a little bit better than that.

Sad truth.

Even Czech Republic - after freeing itself from Communism - already has more freedom than we do. And the government trust its population far more.

[Smallc]

Even Czech Republic - after freeing itself from Communism - already has more freedom than we do.

Really? Like what?

[Scotty]

They generally don't go out on their own though. There is a great deal of probationary on the job training. It does though, vary from department to department.

How is that any different from any other job? After multiple years of legal training, a brand new lawyer doesn't get to do much of anything without a senior lawyer inspecting it. First year interns don't do much of anything without a senior resident watching, and event hose horticulture and hairstyle grads are probably given the simplest of tasks while their seniors watch and instruct them in how things are 'really done'.

The difference is the shiny new law clerk has 104 weeks of training and the shiny new cop has 12 - and a gun.

[Saipan]

Really? Like what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_Czech_Republic

They have the freedom Canada used to have half a century ago. People here don't understand governments here know how to cook a frog. Put it in hot water it'll jump out. Put it in cold water and just slowly warm it up it will eventually cook.

"Nothing in politics happens suddenly, everything is done one small step at a time."

- - - Warran Allmand (Lib.),WTN 1995.(Father of Canada's "Gun Control" Laws,1978)

See UK and Australia confiscation.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Saipan

[Smallc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_Czech_Republic

They have the freedom Canada used to have half a century ago. People here don't understand governments here know how to cook a frog. Put it in hot water it'll jump out. Put it in cold water and just slowly warm it up it will eventually cook.

You can't have a gun in Canada?

[Saipan]

You can't have a gun in Canada?

1) If you even mention selfdefence you'll never get a licence in Canada.

2) To buy a handgun you need to be a member of a gun club in good standing for at least a year, and get second licence (restricted) and writen permit ATT to transport the handguns anywhere except straight to shooting range and straight back with trigger lock AND in locked case not visible from outside of a car.

Don't ask me how if you have a bike only or walk.

There are hundreds of new limitations too long to post here. Just an example: empties (brass) kids used to pick at the shooting range are now treated as "hazmat" you are not even allowed to buy from USA!

[Smallc]

So then yes, you can.

[bloodyminded]

So then yes, you can.

Yep. Short answer: "yes."

Long answer: "more restrictions than some people think is right."

Two different arguments, no matter how a poster tries to conflate them into one.

[g_bambino]

So then yes, you can.

I think the point is Czechs can get one easier and the scale of freedom, of course, is measured by how effortless it is to obtain a gun. Didn't you know that? It's taught in all the best schools of political science.

[bloodyminded]

I think the point is Czechs can get one easier and the scale of freedom, of course, is measured by how effortless it is to obtain a gun. Didn't you know that? It's taught in all the best schools of political science.

Ah, Christ yes, the one-note repetition is irritating. Hell, I don't even agree with the registry; but I would vote for it, if they added a "Saipan-no-more-speak-about-guns" clause to it.

[Smallc]

I think the point is Czechs can get one easier and the scale of freedom, of course, is measured by how effortless it is to obtain a gun. Didn't you know that? It's taught in all the best schools of political science.

Now it makes sense.

[Saipan]

I would vote for it, if they added a "Saipan-no-more-speak-about-guns" clause to it.

What are the Liberals afraid of?