Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 So,in your opinion,there's no way this could easily be put into legislation to affect private sector unions??? There you go again. Pretending that public unions are tantamount to private unions. No, this couldn't easily be put into legislation to affect private sector unions. Private sector unions don't negotiate over tax dollars. Quote
Scotty Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Nope... FREE market society... Individual FREEDOM at it's very core... Well at least before Harper made his "nanny state" regulations on the banks telling them how to structure loans and mortgages so some people can't get loans or buy houses any more... Didn't affect me or anyone with some cash and no debt, but a young family starting out, well, "screw them", the Harper Gov. said... It was nanny state, to a degree, but in the better interests of society as a whole. Lacking laws, too many people would fall prey to economic foolishness. It's unfortunate, but a fact of human nature. This is why we have laws against usury, because some people will feel forced to take loans even if the repayment rate is 1,000% interest. Not everyone is smart. Not everyone is economically capable. A society tries to look out for its weaker members. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 In New Jersey, 75% of all property taxes go just to pay for public sector salaries, benefits and pensions. Property taxes are municipal, right? So mostly, what municipalities pay for are police, fire department, garbage collection, water treatment, schools, etc. These all require actual human beings to do the jobs, right? By the way, do you have a cite? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) There you go again. Pretending that public unions are tantamount to private unions. No, this couldn't easily be put into legislation to affect private sector unions. Private sector unions don't negotiate over tax dollars. . Edited February 24, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Scotty Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 We'll all make more money if we get government out of the economy, and greatly shrink its size. Like in Dickens' time? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 The Labour Movement? What a joke. Those same sheep who claim to be part of the "Labour Movement" shoot themselves in the foot with every Statist word they utter. If those who advocate for better treatment of workers or whatever it is they advocate had a clue they'd be in favour of a free market. The free market would create the best possible conditions for workers of all stripes. In a free market there'd be no need for a "Labour Movement"...the very idea would be obsolete. When in history, in any country, did a 'free market' result in the best possible conditions for workers? Anywhere? Government intervention is a relatively new concern. There was far less fifty years back, and far less than that fifty years earlier, etc. etc. My knowledge of history might be imperfect but I don't recall reading about any paradise for workers in the eighteenth or nineteenth centuries, or the early twentieth century either. As state intervention has grown, however, worker protection and treatment has also grown. Do you have an explanation for this? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Professor... This is your usual sorry tactic when faced with something you know almost nothing about... Namely,intimate someone is crazy to nullify an arguement you might actually be proven to have less than a tenuous grasp of the actual facts... And certainly have an even lesser (if that's even possible) grasp of tactics... Clearly,you've never been in a contract negotiation,because if you had been,you would realize you are'nt negotiating the current contract buy future ones,as well.... But ,of course,with your intimate knowledge of who's behind things like the RTW movement (you still cannot cite for me,or anyone else,what the NAM is or the Citizens Alliance is and what their goals are),you already knew these things... Right? Tell me something Professor (of industrial labour relations...along with your intimate knowledge of 20th century history and political science)... Why would free entreprise/anti organized labour people like the Koch's ( who we know fund free market groups like the CATO Institute and other Right to Work groups) be interested in a state budgetary problem in Wisconsin??? What's in it for them if it was only about simply public sector bargaining rights??? Now we'll see if you have thought this one through,Professor... How 'bout a complete,non-selectively quoted answer,Shady (Professor of Labour Relations)... Thrill us all with your "Labour Relations Acumen".... Edited February 24, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Scotty Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Yep...and we know what Clinton was doing with all that extra time. So did Al Qaeda. I don't share America's adolescent obsession with other people's sex lives. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Shakeyhands Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Nonsense....the projected surpluses never would have happened...there was a recession gift to President Bush. And a little problem with "terrorists". America's national debt increased overall under Clinton's tenure. When did Bush receive his recession gift? What year? Quote "They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 For thirteen years? Gee, I wonder if I could simply not pay my bills because I "don't have the money". I wonder if the courts would look kindly on that. Under economic reality, bankruptcy would occur, and those contracts would be restructured. So for the last thirteen odd years New Jersey has negotiated contracts and then not paid into the pension funds. And somehow, they're to be excused because they 'didn't have the money'. Yes, New Jersey made promises it couldn't keep. Even if New Jersey had made pension payments for all those years, and continued to do so. The public pension shortfall would continue to grow. Because they system is flawed. Because workers are drawing disproportionate benefits from what they put into the system. I'm sure you have some cites to back that up, right? Because in the cite I listed it stated the New Jersey Teachers had contributed some $7 billion to their pension fund, which sounds like rather more than nothing. Absolutely the Teacher's union has contributed $7 billion into the pension fund. Unfortunately that's not nearly enough to cover the benefits workers are taking now, and will be taking in the future. Add to that the fact that public sector workers there receive full health benefits while paying barely anthing for them. And in some cases ZERO. Who's left paying the majority of the pension costs? Tax payers. Who's left paying some 90% of their full health benefits? Tax payers. Well, the party's over. The system is unsustainable. That's why this year teacher's have been asked to pay 1.5% of their health benefits. Oh the horror. That still leaves 98.5% of the cost being picked up by Joe and Jane tax payer. And how much do the employees of large corporations usually pay for medical benefits? For example, Toyota, a large organization without unions, also gives free medical coverage to its workers in return for ZERO payments from those workers. I believe Google does the same. That's great that Toyota does that. They do that with their own money. They don't tax everyone else in order to pay for their employees benefits. Do you people still not understand the difference between public sector and private sector? Seriously. Quote
Scotty Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Aside. I was eating breakfast by the TV this morning, and flicking through the all-news stations. Those would be CBC, CTV, BBC, CNN, CNN headline, MSNBC, and FOX. All but FOX led off with the ongoing drama in Libya, and stayed on the story for several minutes. Fox led off with Wisconsin, and stayed on it, virtually without pause. Around the four minute mark CNN and MSNBC did a brief piece on Wisconsin, and around that time FOX did a very brief piece on Libya, but mostly on how it was affecting oil prices, and how those nice oil companies were working hard to make sure their workers in Libya were safe, and then how awful it was that Obama hadn't okayed drilling in national parks. Then they went back to Wisconsin again. Various talking heads seemed to be in a state of wonderment that all those unionists (said with the same tone you would say pedophile) hadn't already been locked up or something. There was much fixation on trying to punish those who had booked off sick, and on police actions to catch these 'AWOL' senators. You start to get a picture, while watching this, of what is affecting the mentality of some of the anti-union people on this thread. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Aside. I was eating breakfast by the TV this morning, and flicking through the all-news stations. Those would be CBC, CTV, BBC, CNN, CNN headline, MSNBC, and FOX. All but FOX led off with the ongoing drama in Libya, and stayed on the story for several minutes. Fox led off with Wisconsin, and stayed on it, virtually without pause. Around the four minute mark CNN and MSNBC did a brief piece on Wisconsin, and around that time FOX did a very brief piece on Libya, but mostly on how it was affecting oil prices, and how those nice oil companies were working hard to make sure their workers in Libya were safe, and then how awful it was that Obama hadn't okayed drilling in national parks. Then they went back to Wisconsin again. Various talking heads seemed to be in a state of wonderment that all those unionists (said with the same tone you would say pedophile) hadn't already been locked up or something. There was much fixation on trying to punish those who had booked off sick, and on police actions to catch these 'AWOL' senators. You start to get a picture, while watching this, of what is affecting the mentality of some of the anti-union people on this thread. That's very telling,is'nt it...On many levels... That damn liberal media!!! Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Scotty Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Under economic reality, bankruptcy would occur, and those contracts would be restructured. And then they'd sign another contract with the same provisions, and then declare bankruptcy again? Yes, New Jersey made promises it couldn't keep. Even if New Jersey had made pension payments for all those years, and continued to do so. The public pension shortfall would continue to grow. Because they system is flawed. Because workers are drawing disproportionate benefits from what they put into the system. Cite? Absolutely the Teacher's union has contributed $7 billion into the pension fund. Unfortunately that's not nearly enough to cover the benefits workers are taking now, and will be taking in the future. Cite? Maybe it would be enough if the state, ie, the employer who signed the agreements, had contributed their mandated share. Add to that the fact that public sector workers there receive full health benefits while paying barely anthing for them. And in some cases ZERO. Wait, you said none of them contributed anything. Which is it? How much do they contribute? And how does that compare to other large organizations? That's great that Toyota does that. They do that with their own money. They don't tax everyone else in order to pay for their employees benefits. Do you people still not understand the difference between public sector and private sector? Seriously. So you're saying that the state should not offer its employees the kinds of benefits other large organizations do? That, in effect, they should be the poorest paying jobs around so that only the least qualified, most desperate workers will ever work for the state? Is that who you want teaching kids? And yes, the difference between a private sector employer and a public sector employer is the public sector employer sometimes makes irresponsible agreements. But that's a reason to fire those politicians, not abrogate the agreements. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 When did Bush receive his recession gift? What year? 2000-2001. Remember the dot com bubble? The economy began shrinking in 2000, and officially hit the recession threshold in March of 2001. Two quarters of negative growth. The first quarter staring in 2000. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 ....You start to get a picture, while watching this, of what is affecting the mentality of some of the anti-union people on this thread. Well let's see...using that kind of logic: Number of MLW thread pages for Libya = 5 Number of MLW thread pages for Union Busting = 81 Now I wonder why union busting would get so much more attention compared to those poor set upon Libyans? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 MapleLeafAlliance, I'm glad to see you here, and it occurs to me that your belief in a completely free market warrants its own thread, as it's not directly related to Wisconsin's situation. I like the topic, but we're drifting on Wisconsin here - what do you say about starting a new one with that topic in mind ? Something like "Statism versus Dickensian society which is better ?" Largest turnout of demonstrators yet in Wisconsin... Punked Walker - Koch call hit's the Daily Show and other Comedy Shows and is now going viral... Crank call -Major topic on News Channels (what choice do they have after it's on "the most trusted name in news" - The Daily Show) even usurping Libya... What does it take to impeach a Governor? Will Wisconsin be the first state to fall and get "liberated" from the Corporate/Political alliance? Will Ohio be far behind as the second state to fall? So many questions, so few answers... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 So you're saying that the state should not offer its employees the kinds of benefits other large organizations do? They should offer its employees the benefits they can actually afford. If Toyota couldn't afford them, they wouldn't be offering them. Or if they did offer them, they wouldn't be taking the general public's money to help pay for them. I know it's a novel concept, but you buy what you can afford. Unfortunately public sector unions don't operate under that economic reality. The way everybody else, as well as private sector unions do. They basically act as an extension of the government. Continuing to borrow and borrow and borrow more money. Accumulating more and more debt, and then passing it off to the rest of the tax payers. It's immoral. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 ...What does it take to impeach a Governor? Will Wisconsin be the first state to fall and get "liberated" from the Corporate/Political alliance? Ask Bill Clinton...he has some experience in that area. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Largest turnout of demonstrators yet in Wisconsin... Well, there's 300,00+ public sector workers in Wisconsin. I'm sure they'll find a way to get all of them out there if they can. Hopefully they'll be around to witness the closing of debate in the Wisconsin house, and the passing of the law. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Well, there's 300,00+ public sector workers in Wisconsin. I'm sure they'll find a way to get all of them out there if they can. Hopefully they'll be around to witness the closing of debate in the Wisconsin house, and the passing of the law. That would be sweet....then we can watch them cry about losing their union right to SCREW Wisconsin taxpayers. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Largest turnout of demonstrators yet in Wisconsin... Punked Walker - Koch call hit's the Daily Show and other Comedy Shows and is now going viral... Crank call -Major topic on News Channels (what choice do they have after it's on "the most trusted name in news" - The Daily Show) even usurping Libya... What does it take to impeach a Governor? Will Wisconsin be the first state to fall and get "liberated" from the Corporate/Political alliance? Will Ohio be far behind as the second state to fall? So many questions, so few answers... Two days ago,on CNN,the question was put to the governor of Ohio.. "If the unions are prepared to concede to your financial demands,or at least negotiate them, why do you still require an end to collective bargaining,individual opting out,annual recert votes etc...." His answer?? "Because managers need to manage!!!" and. "We've been losing jobs to the Southeast and Mid-West (most are RTW states)...We have to be able to compete" None of that talks about public sector unions at all...It does tell me that this about RTW across the board...Legalized union busting under the guise of "freedom"... And he hit one of the con/free marketeer buzzwords in the process..."competative"...(see drive down labour costs by taking away collective bargaining rights) Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 That would be sweet....then we can watch them cry about losing their union right to SCREW Wisconsin taxpayers. Spot on! Their right to other people's money! Quote
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Ask Bill Clinton...he has some experience in that area. Not as a former Governor of Arkansas he doesn't that's why I'm asking YOU as YOU suggested I do... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Not as a former Governor of Arkansas he doesn't that's why I'm asking YOU as YOU suggested I do... More than you might think...just ask the ladies...and his wife. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 More than you might think...just ask the ladies...and his wife. Don't forget the Arkansas state troopers! Quote
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