Union Busting in Wisconsin

[bush_cheney2004]

What beating Republicans on their turf? Seems like a win to me.

So when do the unions get their unfair labor advantages back?

[punked]

So when do the unions get their unfair labor advantages back?

You mean negotiation? When do they get the right to negotiate back?

[bush_cheney2004]

You mean negotiation? When do they get the right to negotiate back?

No, when do they get back that which Walker took away...all of it?

[punked]

No, when do they get back that which Walker took away...all of it?

You mean the right to negotiate?

[bush_cheney2004]

You mean the right to negotiate?

No, I mean the right to be blood sucking parasites.

[punked]

No, I mean the right to be blood sucking parasites.

Just say it they are fighting for their right to sit at the table to tell their bosses what they want. They are fighting for the right to negotiate.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just say it they are fighting for their right to sit at the table to tell their bosses what they want. They are fighting for the right to negotiate.

OK....they lost. Better luck next time.

[jbg]

I believe, as Hans Hermann-Hoppe states in his book "Democracy: The God that failed" the right to secession was basically a tacit understanding until 1861 when it was attempted.

And that attempt proved to be a real great idea, right?

You'll notice that that, in the U.S. the South has the greatest number of super-patriots.

It was nothing to do with the fact they actually were facing bankruptcy? I don't think the government forced them into bankruptcy, they did that themselves. The government bailed them out of bankruptcy.

There is a huge difference between bankruptcy in the traditional sense and what happened here. Traditionally, a company in difficulty lines up its own "debtor-in-posssesion" or "D.I.P." financing. This is new lending that allows the company to meet ordinary expenses while operating under Chapter 11 of the Bankrutpcy Code. If the D.I.P. lender pulls the plug on the financing the case usually heads into liquidation. The recent debacle with Borders Books is a perfect case in point. Ditto Circuit City Stores and Linens 'N Things.

In the G.M. and Chrysler cases, the U.S. Government dictated that a Chapter 11 filing would occur as a condition for any financial help. It dictated how the proceedings would be handled and how loans by the U.S. and Canadian governments would be handled.

These were hardly normal bankruptcy proceedings. And remember, I am a bankruptcy lawyer, though I have no involvement with either case.

Edited August 14, 2011 by jbg

[punked]

OK....they lost. Better luck next time.

They actually won two seats that were Republican. That is called winning.

[bush_cheney2004]

They actually won two seats that were Republican. That is called winning.

They (not you) defined "winning" as getting a majority in the senate. That didn't happen, but you keep right on spinning anyway.

[punked]

They (not you) defined "winning" as getting a majority in the senate. That didn't happen, but you keep right on spinning anyway.

You will have to show me that quote. That might have been best case however taking two Republican seats is a win.

Edited August 14, 2011 by punked

[Pliny]

They (not you) defined "winning" as getting a majority in the senate. That didn't happen, but you keep right on spinning anyway.

They lost and if they can scrape together some more of other people's money to spend they will do so. They really don't like democratic outcomes that don't serve their purpose. I think they believe democracy is about getting your own way.

[Yukon Jack]

Just say it they are fighting for their right to sit at the table to tell their bosses what they want. They are fighting for the right to negotiate.

Idiots - sorry for the redundancy - union members need thugs to negotiate for them, while they do not realize that they getting the crumbs while those who 'negotiate on their behalf' are stealing the loaf.

I got out of the union as soon as my probationary period was up. I proudly crossed picket lines and worked while the greedy punks were freezing, carrying sandwich boards, spouting nonsense. I spoke for myself all my life.

My bosses ALWAYS paid me, and I had no complaints about the amount, knowing my self-worth. Unions never paid me for anything. They will never pay anyone for anything. They only install false hope and exaggerated importance into members minds.

Those who send you on the picket line, deny your right to work, to support your family are nothing but thugs. That is why only about 6-10% of all workers are in a union.

Best of luck to Wisconsin and Governor Scott Walker.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Yukon Jack

[Pliny]

Those who send you on the picket line, deny your right to work, to support your family are nothing but thugs. That is why only about 6-10% of all workers are in a union.

Best of luck to Wisconsin and Governor Scott Walker.

Actually the reaons why only 6-10% of workers are in Unions is because Union jobs seem to disappear. It isn't because people don't support unions and their objective to achieve fairness and justice and to eliminate exploitation. They would love to have union jobs that do that but obvioulsy since union jobs keep disappearing under their noses then we must assume unions don't have the correct concept of fairness and justice and exploitation.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Pliny

[punked]

They lost and if they can scrape together some more of other people's money to spend they will do so. They really don't like democratic outcomes that don't serve their purpose. I think they believe democracy is about getting your own way.

Tell me how winning seats in places in the state McCain carried in 2008 is a loss for the Democrats please.

[Pliny]

Tell me how winning seats in places in the state McCain carried in 2008 is a loss for the Democrats please.

Despite a concerted effort the primary objective was not attained.

[punked]

Despite a concerted effort the primary objective was not attained.

They can't kick Walker out until Jan that is just the law.

[Pliny]

They can't kick Walker out until Jan that is just the law.

The primary objective was to take control of the WI senate. If they could have done that they could have reversed Walker's legislation. Going after Walker in January has to wait until January. It had nothing to do with the desired objective of the recalls.

But you knew that. You are just being a slippery lefty that won't admit to any defeat.

[Yukon Jack]

Actually the reaons why only 6-10% of workers are in Unions is because Union jobs seem to disappear. It isn't because people don't support unions and their objective to achieve fairness and justice and to eliminate exploitation. They would love to have union jobs that do that but obvioulsy since union jobs keep disappearing under their noses then we must assume unions don't have the correct concept of fairness and justice and exploitation.

If unions and unionists were decent and realistic enough to realize and acknowledge their own worth, they would know that their unreasonable demands are pricing jobs in America right into the Chinese market.

Union thugs keep on trying to convince their misguided members - who are paying dues to pay for the exotic and extravagant vacations of Girard, Trumka and the latter day re-incarnation of 'cement-block' Hoffa - that they are worth, with a grade 8 education the same as an engineer or a doctor or just about anyone with brains.

[bloodyminded]

If unions and unionists were decent and realistic enough to realize and acknowledge their own worth, they would know that their unreasonable demands are pricing jobs in America right into the Chinese market.

Union thugs keep on trying to convince their misguided members - who are paying dues to pay for the exotic and extravagant vacations of Girard, Trumka and the latter day re-incarnation of 'cement-block' Hoffa - that they are worth, with a grade 8 education the same as an engineer or a doctor or just about anyone with brains.

According to the many free marketeers among us, an employee is worth whatever he can get. Period.

That is the essence of "market value."

I'm told that a low-wage drone is "worth" ten dollars an hour...because that's what "the market" (ie the Human Resource Officers of whatever company we're talking about) allows them.

It works both ways.

[Pliny]

If unions and unionists were decent and realistic enough to realize and acknowledge their own worth, they would know that their unreasonable demands are pricing jobs in America right into the Chinese market.

Union thugs keep on trying to convince their misguided members - who are paying dues to pay for the exotic and extravagant vacations of Girard, Trumka and the latter day re-incarnation of 'cement-block' Hoffa - that they are worth, with a grade 8 education the same as an engineer or a doctor or just about anyone with brains.

Basically, I agree but people who are working union jobs tend to believe the Union is the reason for them even having a job let alone one with higher pay than they feel they could ever get and far more than it is worth. Unfortunately, they have lost the connection between real productivity and the value of labour. They have no problem pointing out that it is their productivity that produces products for the consumer and all the while want to work less for higher pay. More and longer breaks, more paid holidays, annual increases in pay, more benefits, shared pension-plans, paid 4 week holidays, sick leave, double time and a half on holidays, etc. Governments are pretty much the only ones that can continue these things for any length of time before the taxpayer revolts. In the private sector labour can continue it's bullying and ransom tactics until it prices itself out of the market.

Taking out the garbage is important to society and garbagemen feel they are very important and should be getting a doctor's salary since it prevents pestilence and promotes hygenic conditions. And can't see why a hockey player is making a million dollars a year. It makes no sense to them. CEOs of large corporations getting millions of dollars is incomprhensible to them. While I can agree they are a little exorbitant today, and like Unions, CEOs have lost sight of of any tie to productivity and their labour. But the biggest contributor to this disassociation is the governments intervention and distortion of not only the labour market but the debasement of money itself.

As I said, the biggest problem with Unions is their management has no understanding of economics which is why Union jobs have disappeared over time. All of those benefits have to be paid for and once it is too costly for consumers to purchase the products that Union members produce their jobs are history. Government propping up those businesses, through subsidies and bailouts are only delaying the inevitable.

[Bonam]

According to the many free marketeers among us, an employee is worth whatever he can get. Period.

That is the essence of "market value."

I'm told that a low-wage drone is "worth" ten dollars an hour...because that's what "the market" (ie the Human Resource Officers of whatever company we're talking about) allows them.

It works both ways.

That's correct. And when unions force employment costs to go beyond what they are worth to the point the company can no longer compete, you get layoffs, plant closures, and sometimes bankruptcies, as the market dictates. Often it's not the actual wages that are the problem though, rather it's retirement benefits for vast numbers of people who no longer work at the company. For example, GM could probably have avoided going bankrupt even paying all its current workers close to six figures if they didn't also have to support an even larger number of people that didn't work there anymore and hadn't for decades.

Personally, I don't really like the idea of company-funded retirements. Companies should use that money to pay higher wages to present employees, and those employees should save for their own retirements. That would let companies be much more agile with their costs when they need to increase or decrease their workforce, while also making the jobs more attractive for new talent just coming out of colleges/trade schools.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Bonam

[Pliny]

That's correct. And when unions force employment costs to go beyond what they are worth to the point the company can no longer compete, you get layoffs, plant closures, and sometimes bankruptcies, as the market dictates. Often it's not the actual wages that are the problem though, rather it's retirement benefits for vast numbers of people who no longer work at the company. For example, GM could probably have avoided going bankrupt even paying all its current workers close to six figures if they didn't also have to support an even larger number of people that didn't work there anymore and hadn't for decades.

Personally, I don't really like the idea of company-funded retirements. Companies should use that money to pay higher wages to present employees, and those employees should save for their own retirements. That would let companies be much more agile with their costs when they need to increase or decrease their workforce, while also making the jobs more attractive for new talent just coming out of colleges/trade schools.

Future committed liabilities are indeed a problem. No one can guarantee they will be funded.

Of course, GM thought they would always be the number one carmaker in the world and, I think accountants worked the numbers from that belief - a belief also held by the promise of Unions - good jobs will always be there for their members.

[lindajamison76]

Well, great work! You have helped me to improve my knowledge about this field. Thank you so much for sharing.

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[bush_cheney2004]

Hmmmm...nary a peep about the results of Wisconsin's recall election? Seems that Governor Scott Walker won by a larger margin than the first time, mostly because many citizens resented the use of a recall petition for a policy issue, including some union members.

Thanks for playing .....