Union Busting in Wisconsin

[bush_cheney2004]

Target workers say NO! to union:

Workers at a Target store in suburban New York City voted against joining a union Friday, bringing another defeat to organized labor in its attempts to penetrate the world of big retail.

The vote was 137 to 85, as Target workers in Valley Stream, N.Y., declined to be represented by the United Food and Commercial Workers International Union (UFCW). If the union effort had prevailed, it would have been the first time workers have organized at the nation's second-largest retailer....

http://www.startribune.com/business/124120324.html

[Pliny]

Target workers say NO! to union:

That's impossible! It must have been an unfarily influenced vote!

[Pliny]

Agreed, he's a world citizen, not particularly a lover of his own country.

The American constitution is the only document that warns of the potential tyranny of all governments, and Americans the only citizens in the world with any concept of that potential.

Anyone who's a "shoe-in" at this stage is peaking too early. Just ask Hilary Rodham Clinton. The current crop will be whittled down fast. I expect that anyone that played a role in the 2008 debacle, including Mitt Romney, already-withdrawn Huckabee, and (nominally non-candidate) Palen to be gone from the field.

I agree. The night is young.

Except for those that do.

They are just "weiners" though.

The voters have an annoying habit of not wanting to be dictated to.

Especially those that have already gained entitlements. Unions, seniors, teachers, accountants, lawyers...can't forget lawyers!!

He's a fraud and a phony. Makes the Wizard of Oz look like he has substance.

If the consequences weren't so far reaching it would be funny.

I believe his ultimte agenda is to ride things is to deny any agenda and if anything goes wrong it is someone else's fault. A trait of most politicians perhaps but I have never witnessed a President more willing to blame someone else, or circumstance for his failures.

Secession is political poison in this country. We lost 600,000 people over that issue.

It is a right of the States.

It's public service unions that are unpopular. Most Americans pay property taxes and it is there that we are being hit in the wallet by the unions. However, private sector workers will find limited success at the public trough. Note that Chrysler and GM were forced into bankruptcy. That was not the case back in 1980.

What forced them into bankruptcy?

Obama has shown nothing of leadership ability that would make Americans want to follow. He had to use a parliamentary trick to get health care through.

Agreed.

[bloodyminded]

The American constitution is the only document that warns of the potential tyranny of all governments, and Americans the only citizens in the world with any concept of that potential.

Well, Americans....and yourself, the single exception.

[Pliny]

Well, Americans....and yourself, the single exception.

There may be a few others....

You sound bitter? Be happy. It's amazing what it does for your outlook.

[bloodyminded]

There may be a few others....

It's possible, eh? There are Americans; and yourself, who simply understands things better than the benighted...well, the benighted entire population of Earth. And maybe, just possibly, a few others who share your elevated comprehension.

You sound bitter?

Not at all; I'm faintly surprised at your hubris, that's all.

[jbg]

It (secession) is a right of the States.

No it is not. The Constitution contains a detailed method for a state to gain admission. The absence of a secession mechanism implies that there is no such right. Further, if it was a right a State could have a "heads I win tails you lose" approach. A state such as Texas could seek admission, have its external debts paid off and then, when oil wealth is discovered, secede. Alberta and Saskatchewan would just love such a right.

What forced them into bankruptcy?

The government as a condition of receiving bailout money. Basically the government, correctly in its view, insisted on its credit infusion being senior to all other debt.

[dre]

The American constitution is the only document that warns of the potential tyranny of all governments, and Americans the only citizens in the world with any concept of that potential.

Yeah... because the billions of people that actually LIVE (and have often died) under tyrannical regimes dont have any concept right?

The world has seen governments turn into into tyranny literally countless times. Everyone gets the concept.

Americans for their part have allowed their government to become the largest, most expensive, and most powerfull entity in human history.

[Pliny]

It's possible, eh? There are Americans; and yourself, who simply understands things better than the benighted...well, the benighted entire population of Earth. And maybe, just possibly, a few others who share your elevated comprehension.

It isn't an elevated comprehension, as much as I appreciate your belief it is. It is simply a different perspective. Most Canadians view government as benign and benevolent, most Americans, although fewer today, have been warned of government and it's tendency to tyranny, democratically; the progressive growth of the State leads to that tyranny if one accepts the benign and benevolent view of government.

Not at all; I'm faintly surprised at your hubris, that's all.

I am fully aware of the level of my ignorance, perhaps that is the source of your surprise and my "hubris"?

You are much more intelligent than I am and there are several people here that I debate with regularly that are much more intelligent also. I learn by debating with you and them.

These snide comments about "hubris" and "elevated comprehension, I don't know any other way I could take them, should be beneath you. I think my only advantage in debating here with you "liberals" is; I know what I don't know but am fairly certain of what little I do know.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Pliny

[Pliny]

No it is not. The Constitution contains a detailed method for a state to gain admission. The absence of a secession mechanism implies that there is no such right. Further, if it was a right a State could have a "heads I win tails you lose" approach. A state such as Texas could seek admission, have its external debts paid off and then, when oil wealth is discovered, secede. Alberta and Saskatchewan would just love such a right.

I stand corrected on this. There is no official right of secession.

If you remember your history though the United States was born out of secession and was a union of independent States that understood secession. I believe, as Hans Hermann-Hoppe states in his book "Democracy: The God that failed" the right to secession was basically a tacit understanding until 1861 when it was attempted.

The government as a condition of receiving bailout money. Basically the government, correctly in its view, insisted on its credit infusion being senior to all other debt.

It was nothing to do with the fact they actually were facing bankruptcy? I don't think the government forced them into bankruptcy, they did that themselves. The government bailed them out of bankruptcy.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Pliny

[Pliny]

Yeah... because the billions of people that actually LIVE (and have often died) under tyrannical regimes dont have any concept right?

They certainly do at that point. It's the people that hold the view that governments are benign and benevolent and are servants of the people and for the people that don't have that concept. I think it describes the view of the majority of citizens in most western democratic states. As long as entitlements continue as voted for they are not inclined to think otherwise. Only when entitlements are threatened do they begin to get the idea but usually they believe it is subversives and nothing to do with government.

The world has seen governments turn into into tyranny literally countless times. Everyone gets the concept.

They get the concept but that's them not us - our governmnents will never be tyrannical - they are our friends and protectors and they give us things.

Americans for their part have allowed their government to become the largest, most expensive, and most powerfull entity in human history.

And Americans are the most aware of government and it's proclivity to tyranny. How could that happen?

As I said, fewer Americans today are aware of that. And you yourself would laugh if I said the Canadian government were headed toward tyranny unless we vigilantly staunch it's growth. Government seems to go through a process of being in existence, first for the citizen, then for the common good and finally for the good of the State.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Pliny

[bush_cheney2004]

Looks like all the union bluster and spending on recall elections has fallen short in Wisconsin.

This spring, the battle cry of the pro-union protesters in Madison became, "This is what democracy looks like." But the results show that voters are no longer willing to be bullied into accepting union demands. This was the second major referendum on Scott Walker's policies, and both have ended up ratifying curbs on union power.

That is what democracy looks like

.

...the fat lady has sung.

[punked]

Looks like all the union bluster and spending on recall elections has fallen short in Wisconsin.

This spring, the battle cry of the pro-union protesters in Madison became, "This is what democracy looks like." But the results show that voters are no longer willing to be bullied into accepting union demands. This was the second major referendum on Scott Walker's policies, and both have ended up ratifying curbs on union power.

That is what democracy looks like

.

...the fat lady has sung.

Not quite if the Dems win the last two recalls the New Legislature would never have voted for the union busting because one Republican voted against it. The Legislature is a lot more Progressive this morning.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not quite if the Dems win the last two recalls the New Legislature would never have voted for the union busting because one Republican voted against it. The Legislature is a lot more Progressive this morning.

Huh?

The last two recalls are against Democrat senators who cowered in Illinois rather than do their job. So no matter what happens the Republicans will retain a 17-16 advantage.

[punked]

Huh?

The last two recalls are against Democrat senators who cowered in Illinois rather than do their job. So no matter what happens the Republicans will retain a 17-16 advantage.

However there is one moderate republican which swings the power from the right into the center in a 16-17 split.

[bush_cheney2004]

However there is one moderate republican which swings the power from the right into the center in a 16-17 split.

Depends on the issue....no matter what, all the earlier talk of "democracy" supporting the union(s) was just that. The Republicans won in court, and have prevailed in the mighty recall effort. MSNBC is still crying.

[punked]

Depends on the issue....no matter what, all the earlier talk of "democracy" supporting the union(s) was just that. The Republicans won in court, and have prevailed in the mighty recall effort. MSNBC is still crying.

That seems like a little bit of spin. All of these were Red seats and the Dems came awful close to winning all of them considering in the entire history of America before this only 13 recalls have ever been successful having two in one year is a pretty big deal and the swings in these red districts was so big that if this was the 2010 Walker Election he would have lost the election. Make no mistake this was not good for the right wing in WI, to lose in 5-6+R seats was not a good sign.

[bush_cheney2004]

... Make no mistake this was not good for the right wing in WI, to lose in 5-6+R seats was not a good sign.

Look, if you want to spin this as a great victory for Democrats and labor that's fine, the practical result says otherwise. The main reason it was a major defeat for Democrats is because THEY made it such a big deal and mountain to die on....and they lost. As did the talking heads on MSNBC, who are still screaming like stuck pigs.

"This is what democracy looks like."

[punked]

Look, if you want to spin this as a great victory for Democrats and labor that's fine, the practical result says otherwise. The main reason it was a major defeat for Democrats is because THEY made it such a big deal and mountain to die on....and they lost. As did the talking heads on MSNBC, who are still screaming like stuck pigs.

"This is what democracy looks like."

How so today there are less Republicans then there were a month ago. That is a loss.

[bush_cheney2004]

How so today there are less Republicans then there were a month ago. That is a loss.

So does that mean that the union faithful are happy and satisfied with their "victory"?

[punked]

So does that mean that the union faithful are happy and satisfied with their "victory"?

Once you are satisfied you stop pressing. Progressives and Conservatives will never be satisfied.

[bush_cheney2004]

Once you are satisfied you stop pressing. Progressives and Conservatives will never be satisfied.

They also keep pressing after losing the battle....next stop will be the Gov. Walker recall effort. And they will fail again.

[punked]

They also keep pressing after losing the battle....next stop will be the Gov. Walker recall effort. And they will fail again.

We will see they have already taken two Republicans down in Republican districts so they already have some wins.

[bush_cheney2004]

We will see they have already taken two Republicans down in Republican districts so they already have some wins.

...but not what they bragged about...DEMOCRACY! LOL!

[punked]

...but not what they bragged about...DEMOCRACY! LOL!

What beating Republicans on their turf? Seems like a win to me.