Scotty Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 Yes? And? They've never lied to me, as far as I know. Neither has the Fraser Institute, as far as you know. But you didn't read the Fraser report, and you didn't read the Conference Board report either. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Smallc Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) You don't know that at all. The average Canadian salary is what, about $45,000? So let's see, if we figure the federal tax load is 33%, It isn't that, first of all. I don't know where you live. That said, the total tax load of the country is only that, and it makes little sense that personal taxes alone would be about 45%. At 50K per year, in Manitoba, one of the highest tax jurisdictions in the country, combined income tax is below 25%, without any tax credits. Edited February 25, 2011 by Smallc Quote
Smallc Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) Neither has the Fraser Institute, as far as you know. Yes, they have. The conference report asks for more immigration for economic growth, which is what I care about above almost anything else when it comes to this country. I don't think that business is evil, and I can't see why they would want to hamper growth in Canada. Edited February 25, 2011 by Smallc Quote
Scotty Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 It isn't that, first of all. I don't know where you live. That said, the total tax load of the country is only that, and it makes little sense that personal taxes alone would be about 45%. At 50K per year, in Manitoba, one of the highest tax jurisdictions in the country, combined income tax is below 25%, without any tax credits. Who said personal taxes are 45% I got that from you but I don't see Fraser saying it. My impression is this is TOTAL taxes. Their tax freedom day varies from province to province, as well. I looked at their report and it starts out as follows: It is nearly impossible for ordinary Canadians to have a clear idea of how much tax they really pay. For example, while Canadians are painfully aware of sales taxes, calculating the total amount paid would require people to track all of their purchases over the course of a year. There are also many taxes of which Canadians are largely unaware because they are built into the price of goods and services. Such taxes include import duties, excise taxes on tobacco and alcohol, amusement taxes, and gas taxes. Most Canadians are unaware that they pay the employers’ portion of payroll taxes such as Employment Insurance and Canada Pension Plans premiums and other taxes levied on businesses. Though businesses pay these taxes directly, the cost of business taxation is ultimately passed on to ordinary Canadians. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) Yes, they have. The conference report asks for more immigration for economic growth, which is what I care about above almost anything else when it comes to this country. I don't think that business is evil, and I can't see why they would want to hamper growth in Canada. Because the larger the population the greater the living conditions? I don't think business is evil either. I think business is amoral. They are neither good or evil. Business is about making money. And the best way to do that is with really, really cheap labour. You'll note they call for more refugees. How do you imagine that helps economic growth? Refugees generally have low skill sets, low education and no language skills. They are the most likely to wind up in poverty and crime, and the most likely to, if they work, work very low level, hand-to-mouth type jobs. Edited February 25, 2011 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) delete Edited February 25, 2011 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Evening Star Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) Who said personal taxes are 45% I got that from you but I don't see Fraser saying it. My impression is this is TOTAL taxes. Their tax freedom day varies from province to province, as well. I think what he is saying is that the total tax revenue (including federal income taxes, provincial income taxes, corporate taxes, consumption taxes, and every other sort of tax PUT TOGETHER) is 33% of GDP in Canada ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP ) and thus there is no way that Tax Freedom Day could arrive 45% of the way through the year. The highest marginal federal income tax rate in the country is 29% btw: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html Edited February 25, 2011 by Evening Star Quote
Smallc Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) Who said personal taxes are 45% I got that from you but I don't see Fraser saying it. My impression is this is TOTAL taxes. Their tax freedom day varies from province to province, as well. Well no matter what, it's wrong. I've already explained to you why, and the numbers are quite easy to find (some in the post above this one). The Fraser institute lies. It's that simple. Edited February 25, 2011 by Smallc Quote
Smallc Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 I think what he is saying is that the total tax revenue (including federal income taxes, provincial income taxes, corporate taxes, consumption taxes, and every other sort of tax PUT TOGETHER) is 33% of GDP in Canada ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP ) and thus there is no way that Tax Freedom Day could arrive 45% of the way through the year. The highest marginal federal income tax rate in the country is 29% btw: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html Yes, thank you. My head hurts today. Quote
Smallc Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 Because the larger the population the greater the living conditions? I said that? No, I didn't. That said, an increasing population is imperative for economic growth. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 They are the most likely to wind up in poverty and crime, and the most likely to, if they work, work very low level, hand-to-mouth type jobs. 1. Do you have a source for the crime statistics ? 2. Those jobs are plentiful and are part of the economy too. But I don't think any of the Conference Board employers employ that many hand-to-mouth jobs, if you look at the list. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Scotty Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 I said that? No, I didn't. That said, an increasing population is imperative for economic growth. Really? Why? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
guyser Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 Really? Why? In simplistic terms (and one segment of a countries markets)it puts pressure on home sales. Each new home sale puts approx $30,000 spin off dollars into the economy. Quote
GWiz Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 Really? Why? If someone needs to explain that it's TIME for you to see a head doctor... just sayin' Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Scotty Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 1. Do you have a source for the crime statistics ? 2. Those jobs are plentiful and are part of the economy too. But I don't think any of the Conference Board employers employ that many hand-to-mouth jobs, if you look at the list. I didn't give any statistics. Do you have a source that says those jobs are plentiful? Because I used to work those kinds of jobs and they weren't all that easy to find. Do you have a suggestion why they wanted more refugees unless it was for low-skilled labour? Is there any indication low skilled labour is in short supply in this country? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) In simplistic terms (and one segment of a countries markets)it puts pressure on home sales. Each new home sale puts approx $30,000 spin off dollars into the economy. So? A bigger pie with more people eating it does not give any individual more to eat. We've grown by several million in the last ten years. Are Canadians any better off than they were in 2000? Are we any better off than we were in 1990? 1980? 1970? I don't see1 how. There's been technological progress which has done a lot of nice things, but are we, individually any richer in any way? So what has this 'growing economy' done for us? Edited February 25, 2011 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Smallc Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 So? A bigger pie with more people eating it does not give any individual more to eat. We've grown by several million in the last ten years. Are Canadians any better off than they were in 2000? Our per capita GDP is higher, and our earnings are up over inflation, so yes. Quote
guyser Posted February 25, 2011 Report Posted February 25, 2011 So? A bigger pie with more people eating it does not give any individual more to eat. True, we just feed more with that pie. ... but are we, individually any richer in any way? So what has this 'growing economy' done for us? In the case of homes, sure. Most people use them as a retirement fund of some sort. If you bought in TO in 2000, you can bet your donkey you have benefitted economically. Quote
Scotty Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 Our per capita GDP is higher, and our earnings are up over inflation, so yes. You have a cite to back that up? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 True, we just feed more with that pie. But that in no way helps the people who were already here. In the case of homes, sure. Most people use them as a retirement fund of some sort. If you bought in TO in 2000, you can bet your donkey you have benefitted economically. There are many investment opportunities around. And I don't believe that as a society it's wise to spend billions of dollars every year bringing in immigrants just so our house prices can continue to rise. I have posted cites which suggest the cost to government at all level can be as high as 20 billion per year, and that the influx of unskilled workers has cost us from 1-2 points of gdp growth per year. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Smallc Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 You have a cite to back that up? Not one that I can readily access at the moment, but it's information that I've seen many times over the years. Recent GDP growth (in the last 5 years) has outpaced the US and generally, our economy grows by more than our population. For example though, from 2006 to 2007 (the years before recession and the earliest available free statistics), Canada's per capita GDP grew. http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/econ15-eng.htm http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/demo02a-eng.htm Quote
Scotty Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 Well no matter what, it's wrong. I've already explained to you why, and the numbers are quite easy to find (some in the post above this one). The Fraser institute lies. It's that simple. Your statement has no basis in fact. It's sole basis seems to be you don't like right wingers. That is no way to make an intelligent decision. You've already admitted you never read their claim never investigated it, and apparently don't bother to read other studies either. You have no idea what is and isn't factual and should not be making statements which suggest you do. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Smallc Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 Your statement has no basis in fact. We just talked about the lie that is tax freedom day, and Evening Star pointed out several statistics that show it to be a lie. It's sole basis seems to be you don't like right wingers. I would have to dislike most of my family if that were the case. That is no way to make an intelligent decision. You've already admitted you never read their claim never investigated it, and apparently don't bother to read other studies either. You have no idea what is and isn't factual and should not be making statements which suggest you do. I'll make whatever statements I want to. If you have a problem with them, don't respond. It's not my fault that you don't have any actual facts to back up your attack on conventional wisdom and the status quo. It is you who has something to prove in the face of long standing economic and cultural policies, not I. Quote
Scotty Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 I think what he is saying is that the total tax revenue (including federal income taxes, provincial income taxes, corporate taxes, consumption taxes, and every other sort of tax PUT TOGETHER) is 33% of GDP in Canada ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP ) and thus there is no way that Tax Freedom Day could arrive 45% of the way through the year. The highest marginal federal income tax rate in the country is 29% btw: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html I'm not enough of an economist to compare GDP and average income, or to figure out how imports and exports figure into things, not to mention deficit spending. However, I can do basic arithmetic. If you take a 20% take rate for federal taxes, then add in a 10% tax rate for the province, you're up to 30%. Now add in something like the HST, which is 15% of almost everything you buy, in Ontario, at least. Now add in the municipal tax you pay on your residence. It doesn't matter if you rent or own, you still pay taxes to the tune of several thousand dollars. Depending on your income that adds another 3-4-5-6-7% to your total tax bill. Now add in fuel taxes. Fuel taxes make up about 1/3rd the price of every tank of gas. If you live in the suburbs you pay a lot of fuel taxes. Some people I know have to fill up their tanks every 2-3 days. Then there are the other hidden manufacturing taxes and costs. It seems easily understandable to me how the average tax payment could rise to 45%. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 We just talked about the lie that is tax freedom day, and Evening Star pointed out several statistics that show it to be a lie. We talked about Tax Freedom Day, and your determination it was a lie, even though you never actually looked into it - because that would be too hard. Evening Star provided an entirely different set of statistics which, while noteworthy, did not prove anything with regard to actual taxes per person. I'll make whatever statements I want to. Of course you will. But given you seem to make statements with no basis in fact because you couldn't bother to actually read any of the supporting data, I, and I'm sure others, will simply discount the value of your opinions. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
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