MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 IMO,immigration needs to be even more open than it currently is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Is there evidence that Canada is becoming more religious and intolerant as a whole? I've never seen any. Who would be looking for such evidence? The right wing loves immigrants because they work cheap and don't join unions. The left wing love immigrants because they're visible minorities. The politicians all try to cater to immigrants to get their votes. And such things do not happen overnight. I'm not saying that Canada is going to start putting in morals laws against short skirts and gay sex tomorrow. What I am saying is that the great majority of our immigrants WOULD put in such laws today if they could, and that their numbers increase each year. Now as long as they integrate into our culture and take on our values that's no big deal. Their children and children's children will tend to feel more as we do than their parents. But we're in new territory now. We don't KNOW how well today's immigrants will integrate compared to previous generations. These are far different, culturally, from our culture than previous generations, and many have a religion to back up their cultural beliefs. Also, unlike previous generations, they have internet, phone, satellite TV from home, as well as fairly easy visits back and forth. They're not cut off and separated from their old world culture as was the case with earlier generations of immigrants. So we really don't know, and if we find out they're not integrating - in twenty years or so - it'll be too late to do a lot about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Who would be looking for such evidence? The right wing loves immigrants because they work cheap and don't join unions. The left wing love immigrants because they're visible minorities. The politicians all try to cater to immigrants to get their votes. And such things do not happen overnight. I'm not saying that Canada is going to start putting in morals laws against short skirts and gay sex tomorrow. What I am saying is that the great majority of our immigrants WOULD put in such laws today if they could, and that their numbers increase each year. Now as long as they integrate into our culture and take on our values that's no big deal. Their children and children's children will tend to feel more as we do than their parents. But we're in new territory now. We don't KNOW how well today's immigrants will integrate compared to previous generations. These are far different, culturally, from our culture than previous generations, and many have a religion to back up their cultural beliefs. Also, unlike previous generations, they have internet, phone, satellite TV from home, as well as fairly easy visits back and forth. They're not cut off and separated from their old world culture as was the case with earlier generations of immigrants. So we really don't know, and if we find out they're not integrating - in twenty years or so - it'll be too late to do a lot about it. Reduce the size of government. In a truly free society where every sovereign adult is responsible for themselves - living with a system of laws that emphasizes personal freedom would not allow for one ethnicity's morals to become a binding law for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) Who would be looking for such evidence? The right wing loves immigrants because they work cheap and don't join unions. The left wing love immigrants because they're visible minorities. The politicians all try to cater to immigrants to get their votes. The above is very much a conspiracy theory. And such things do not happen overnight. I'm not saying that Canada is going to start putting in morals laws against short skirts and gay sex tomorrow. What I am saying is that the great majority of our immigrants WOULD put in such laws today if they could, and that their numbers increase each year. Proof? But we're in new territory now. We don't KNOW how well today's immigrants will integrate compared to previous generations. These are far different, culturally, from our culture than previous generations, and many have a religion to back up their cultural beliefs. The above is something that has been repeated by some since before Canada was a country. Edited February 23, 2011 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evening Star Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) Is there evidence that Canada is becoming more religious and intolerant as a whole? I've never seen any. Yeah, I've been wondering about this too. We've been having substantial non-Western immigration since the 70s and the country has been growing more liberal socially. I always hear about the urban immigrant vote going to the Liberals or perhaps the NDP (usually from the same people who bemoan the potential threat. You can't have it both ways.) [Edit: OK, I do see this from the other thread: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/multiculturalism/conservative-immigrants-boost-tory-fortunes/article1738150/?cmpid=rss1 But that also suggests that immigrants have more left-wing views on a number of issues, e.g. foreign policy, which I suspected. It also suggests that their children have more mainstream liberal views.] Given the serious global problem with overpopulation, I genuinely think that it would be irresponsible for the government to promote higher birth rates. Having said this, I also think it's a problem that our few biggest cities are growing so fast while we have all this empty space. I don't really know what we could do about this though. Edited February 23, 2011 by Evening Star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evening Star Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 In 1944, the government did pass a law prohibiting people from moving to the biggest cities in the country but it seems a bit impractical to try that now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Irrelevant. Society can't survive without children. The only difference in cost to society now is the children we educate have to go through ESL classes. THE COSTS OF RAISING CHILDREN - Based on estimates from the economics section of Manitoba Agriculture, the cost of raising a daughter to age 18 in 2004 was an average of $166,549. For boys, the figure was slightly higher – at $166,972 – due to extra costs for food. Raising a child can be an expensive undertaking, with the first year being the most expensive. In 2004, over $10,000 was needed to raise a child to age 1. Parents spent the least amount of money – close to $7,000 – when their children reached age 12. Expenses for both boys and girls then began to rise again as they entered their teenaged years. - ADD to that approx. $50,000 (and constantly rising) for a University Education, lost productivity from the Parent(s) and adjusted to 2011 (post recession) dollars, it would CONSERVATIVELY round out to about $300,000 per child in Canada (much higher in many jurisdictions)... Irrelevent indeed as long as YOU don't have to raise one... I've raised 2 successful sons, you? BTW - you win the award for the stupidest statement I've read since being on this forum and I've read some doozies... Canada is NOT an underpopulated country. And your claim is ludicrous in any event. How are the costs of children or dependents borne by the "sponsor" any more than in the case of children or dependents of Canadian born people? Besides totally contradicting yourself those parents foot the $300,000 bill for the each child or parents... They have to GUARANTEE that in order to sponsor them... Meaning those immigrants (per family) you're raving on about are ADDING MILLIONS to the Canadian economy Instant productivity from immigrants who, for the most part, speak no English and have no job skills? Where is this instant productivity coming from given the high and growing number of immigrants in poverty? MOST, that's right MOST, immigrants MUST speak some passable English in order to even fill out the first of many application forms to even be considered for immigration to Canada... Another totally ignorant of any facts statement... Or is it your contention that Canadians should seek to bring over immigrants to do the dirty jobs with minimal pay and live in poverty so that we can enjoy the easy life with lots of consumer products and no effort at raising children? Quite the contrary, I'm advocating that Canada implement a means of TESTING and CERTIFYING the skillsets that immigrants bring to this country to best utilize those skills... Like testing certifying foreign trained Doctors to be able to WORK as Doctors in areas of Canada were Canadian Graduated Doctors don't want to go instead of having them working in those menial jobs you seem to think is the only work they can do... Save those for Canada's "dropouts", there's enough of them... Oh, and incidentally, I'm an immigrant that came to Canada as a child... So I find your rant rather offensive because I can GUARANTEE you I've done and contributed at least 1000 times what YOU will ever do or contribute to Canada in your lifetime... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 The above is very much a conspiracy theory. uhm, no, a conspiracy theory requires people conspire. That is not what I said. Proof? Proof? Of what? That many immigrants are extremely conservative or that their numbers are increasing? I would have thought both are self evident facts. The above is something that has been repeated by some since before Canada was a country. We had satellite TV and easy jet travel back and forth to the old country in the eighteenth century? Who knew!? Why on earth did those immigrants take such long and troublesome voyages on those old sailing ships!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 THE COSTS OF RAISING CHILDREN BTW - you win the award for the stupidest statement I've read since being on this forum and I've read some doozies.. I'm not even sure how to deal with this kind of ... argument? Your point seems to be that it's too expensive to have children so Canadians should stop doing so and simply bring over immigrants. I don't think that's an argument that I need to even address. In fact, it's not an argument I CAN address without violating terms of use for this site. It's an argument which cries out for mockery and ridicule and I don't want to lower myself to that. Actually, reading over your postings, I don't think you're a person I can even have a mature or intelligent discussion with so I won't bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted February 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Having children isn't really all about economics. My wife and I didn't sit down and say to each other...'wow, we could really have a lot more money for ourselves if we decide not to have any children'. This just isn't really a discussion that comes up. Simply we both knew we wanted children before we even met each other, if it was otherwise I wouldn't have carried on pursuing a relationship with her. It's obvious to me that many here do not have children of their so they don't understand at all. The birth of your child will change you and anyone who says otherwise isn't being honest. I have no problem with people that decide not to have children, however it's simply wrong to say that people shouldn't so that we can have extra money in our pockets. It speaks to the possible immaturity and lack of life experience of some people in our society. Edited February 24, 2011 by Mr.Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 uhm, no, a conspiracy theory requires people conspire. That is not what I said. It's an excuse for why your world view didn't win. The conspiracy isn't at your end, you simply see the others as carrying it out. Proof? Of what? That many immigrants are extremely conservative or that their numbers are increasing? I would have thought both are self evident facts. It isn't. Not even close. We had satellite TV and easy jet travel back and forth to the old country in the eighteenth century? Who knew!? Why on earth did those immigrants take such long and troublesome voyages on those old sailing ships!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I'm not even sure how to deal with this kind of ... argument? Your point seems to be that it's too expensive to have children so Canadians should stop doing so and simply bring over immigrants. I don't think that's an argument that I need to even address. In fact, it's not an argument I CAN address without violating terms of use for this site. It's an argument which cries out for mockery and ridicule and I don't want to lower myself to that. Actually, reading over your postings, I don't think you're a person I can even have a mature or intelligent discussion with so I won't bother. I win... You lose... Thanks for playing... Next! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evening Star Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Proof? Of what? That many immigrants are extremely conservative or that their numbers are increasing? I would have thought both are self evident facts. No, the first isn't self-evident. Even the Globe article I linked only suggests that the immigrant vote is becoming more split between the Liberals and Conservatives, when it used to be predominantly Liberal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Having children isn't really all about economics. My wife and I didn't sit down and say to each other...'wow, we could really have a lot more money for ourselves if we decide not to have any children'. This just isn't really a discussion that comes up. Simply we both knew we wanted children before we even met each other, if it was otherwise I wouldn't have carried on pursuing a relationship with her. It's obvious to me that many here do not have children of their so they don't understand at all. The birth of your child will change you and anyone who says otherwise isn't being honest. I have no problem with people that decide not to have children, however it's simply wrong to say that people shouldn't so that we can have extra money in our pockets. It speaks to the possible immaturity and lack of life experience of some people in our society. I agree with you... Which is what I was pointing out... It's not as simple as saying "we don't need immigrants because we can FORCE or ENTICE Canadians to have more babies" which is what Scotty was advocating... NO ONE considers the costs of raising a child as a factor in whether or not to have children, but to totally ignore that cost is to be blind to reality, especially once you have a child... It has a tremendous affect on one's life and lifestyle... A burden every loving parent readily accepts including immigrant parents... Irrelevent it isn't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 No, the first isn't self-evident. Even the Globe article I linked only suggests that the immigrant vote is becoming more split between the Liberals and Conservatives, when it used to be predominantly Liberal. And that's only because the Conservatives (IMO) have come very close to the centre, while the Liberals have moved to the left somewhat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 And that's only because the Conservatives (IMO) have come very close to the centre, while the Liberals have moved to the left somewhat. Other numbers say different and of course the Globe (business paper) doesn't have a political bias right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Other numbers say different and of course the Globe (business paper) doesn't have a political bias right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dithers Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Harper is not an economist. Nor is he a conservative. Harper is a pragmatist above all things. He's clearly decided that getting votes from the rising number of immigrant and ethnic voters is necessary for him to get his long-cherished majority. To that end, he has bowed to the immigration industry just as the Liberals had, and is doing his best to suck up to local ethnic and immigrant leaders - much as he is to Quebec. YES, I TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!! or... Harper is not a complete tool and is not going to let ideology blind him to demographic necessity. It is an absolute certainty that our generation will be shouldering an ever increasing burden as our baby booming parents retire and become drains on the system. We need more contributing, tax paying citizens. That includes skilled workers, yes, but also low level service industry work as well. Edited February 24, 2011 by Dithers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 YES, I TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!! or... Harper is not a complete tool and is not going to let blind ideology blind him to demographic necessity. It is an absolute certainty that our generation will be shouldering an ever increasing burden as our baby booming parents retire and become drains on the system. We need more contributing, tax paying citizens. That includes skilled workers, yes, but also low level service industry work as well. I'm getting dizzy from this constantly going around in circles... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dithers Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I'm getting dizzy from this constantly going around in circles... That's how I roll? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 That's how I roll? Not you, this thread, round, and round, and round, urrrppp, excuse me a minute... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dithers Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Not you, this thread, round, and round, and round, urrrppp, excuse me a minute... Ah, I see. Well that's the advantage of only poking onto the forum once or twice a year. Make a flurry of posts and ride away. There was an infuriating Chinese uber-nationalist who had me about ready to throw my keyboard out the window. I wonder if he's still around shoveling his party's message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Ah, I see. Well that's the advantage of only poking onto the forum once or twice a year. Make a flurry of posts and ride away. There was an infuriating Chinese uber-nationalist who had me about ready to throw my keyboard out the window. I wonder if he's still around shoveling his party's message. bjre.... He's still here... Still an ardent mouthpiece for the crypto-Fascist Chinese... Still says the Tianneman Massacre did'nt really happen and it's all a CIA plot... Still going on about the evil CAS... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dithers Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) bjre.... He's still here... Still an ardent mouthpiece for the crypto-Fascist Chinese... Still says the Tianneman Massacre did'nt really happen and it's all a CIA plot... Still going on about the evil CAS... Yeah, I remember him denying that China entered the Korean war as well. Honestly, he has single handedly eroded my opinion of China as a nation. And this is how you derail a topic. Watch and learn. Edited February 24, 2011 by Dithers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Yeah, I remember him denying that China entered the Korean war as well. Honestly, he has single handedly eroded my opinion of China as a nation. And this is how you derail a topic. Watch and learn. Derail a thread... Watch this... Dick Butkus could whip Ray Lewis ass...TONIGHT!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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