GWiz Posted February 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 How can you post something you call breaking news with no link to anything? Wow, I didn't think there was anybody left that didn't have a TV or Radio... Guess there is... Anyway, they got it wrong, oh well, on to plan B, C, or whatever stage this brings us to... It ain't gonna be pretty... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Not gone yet- CAIRO — President Hosni Mubarak told an expectant Egypt on Thursday that he had delegated some powers to his vice president but would keep his title and not leave the country. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41506482/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/ Mubarak: "Rumours of my death, are greatly exaggerated..." Yeah... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 I wonder who talked some sense into him. The CIA operatives... "Mr.Mubarak,you ARE going to step down or we will allow the Islamofascist dogs to tear you to pieces and we WILL confiscate all your money so that none of your children can get a cent after you are left a bloody corpse!" See? Completely sensible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 The CIA operatives... "Mr.Mubarak,you ARE going to step down or we will allow the Islamofascist dogs to tear you to pieces and we WILL confiscate all your money so that none of your children can get a cent after you are left a bloody corpse!" See? Completely sensible! In this case the CIA are being made into a laughing stock by Mubarak... They haven't gotten anything right yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 In this case the CIA are being made into a laughing stock by Mubarak... They haven't gotten anything right yet... Maybe... I find this to be more stalling by Mubarak and his friends... It takes a while to gather up the billions you have.It's not exactly chump change... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Maybe... I find this to be more stalling by Mubarak and his friends... It takes a while to gather up the billions you have.It's not exactly chump change... Investigations are starting to look into that very thing, the Mubarak Billions, he may be lucky to get out with his skin intact... Egyptians are NOT happy right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjre Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Investigations are starting to look into that very thing, the Mubarak Billions, he may be lucky to get out with his skin intact... Egyptians are NOT happy right now... What about Canadians? How many billions tax dollars wasted in Canada? Include this one: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/936589--lawyers-call-for-criminal-investigation-into-g20-takedown?bn=1 Why Mubarak have not spend so much tax dollars in where Canada spent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 It's official now: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2011/02/11/egypt-mubarak-future.html Wow! Hats offs and admiration to the people of Egypt. In the last weeks they stood up for, and earned their freedom. Something that will be no doubt remembered in generations, whichever way the subsequent events will turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 It's official now: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2011/02/11/egypt-mubarak-future.html Wow! Hats offs and admiration to the people of Egypt. In the last weeks they stood up for, and earned their freedom. Something that will be no doubt remembered in generations, whichever way the subsequent events will turn. Military rule = freedom now? They have a long way to go yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Military rule = freedom now? They have a long way to go yet. Standing up to the tyranny.. for their rights.. in the face of tanks... that is freedom. It's done and can't be taken away now. Whatever happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Call it a coup or not - this is not a full-blown military take over. The military has been reluctant to get involved over the last few weeks, and only really did so now because it looked like this was going to drag out for months if not until september and as days went on the protests were getting bigger and bigger to the point of shutting the entire country down. The economy couldn't take the hit for months on end, also - they knew that things would get ugly fast that every time Mubarak gets set to speak, an even bigger crowd turns up expecting him to resign and then he basically says the same crazy thing: that he's with the people, and because he supports the protesters he can't step down for the sake of the country. It was clear the man was totally out of touch OR was too much of an ego maniac to accept anything but a huge retirement party. Based on the fact that the military has been meeting with the opposition leaders for at least a week now without Mubarak's people present that's a good sign. They've also been speaking with officials in the US, EU and Turkey without Mubarak's people being involved for a while now. I remember one military official even commenting when asked "what is Egypt's military's role in this crisis" - he didn't directly respond, saying there's too many uncertainties, but that he was always an admirer of Turkey's military - Turkey's army of course plays the role of the defender of the constitution and the secular order, stepping in when a government gets too authoritarian in order to clean things up and restore the constitution. They appear to be doing just that, having meetings to revise the articles in the constitution that Mubarak wrote in when he took over to give him the "legitimacy" to impose a semi-police state. Frankly, if Egypt goes the way of Turkey, it will be a huge improvement for the region. While I was there, that was the one country people seemed to really aspire to be like, even if they held a grudge against the old Ottoman empire for it's foreign policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Call it a coup or not - this is not a full-blown military take over. The military has been reluctant to get involved over the last few weeks, and only really did so now because it looked like this was going to drag out for months if not until september and as days went on the protests were getting bigger and bigger to the point of shutting the entire country down. The economy couldn't take the hit for months on end, also - they knew that things would get ugly fast that every time Mubarak gets set to speak, an even bigger crowd turns up expecting him to resign and then he basically says the same crazy thing: that he's with the people, and because he supports the protesters he can't step down for the sake of the country. It was clear the man was totally out of touch OR was too much of an ego maniac to accept anything but a huge retirement party. Based on the fact that the military has been meeting with the opposition leaders for at least a week now without Mubarak's people present that's a good sign. They've also been speaking with officials in the US, EU and Turkey without Mubarak's people being involved for a while now. I remember one military official even commenting when asked "what is Egypt's military's role in this crisis" - he didn't directly respond, saying there's too many uncertainties, but that he was always an admirer of Turkey's military - Turkey's army of course plays the role of the defender of the constitution and the secular order, stepping in when a government gets too authoritarian in order to clean things up and restore the constitution. They appear to be doing just that, having meetings to revise the articles in the constitution that Mubarak wrote in when he took over to give him the "legitimacy" to impose a semi-police state. Frankly, if Egypt goes the way of Turkey, it will be a huge improvement for the region. While I was there, that was the one country people seemed to really aspire to be like, even if they held a grudge against the old Ottoman empire for it's foreign policy. Right on... Good post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Call it a coup or not - this is not a full-blown military take over. The military has been reluctant to get involved over the last few weeks, and only really did so now because it looked like this was going to drag out for months if not until september and as days went on the protests were getting bigger and bigger to the point of shutting the entire country down. The economy couldn't take the hit for months on end, also - they knew that things would get ugly fast that every time Mubarak gets set to speak, an even bigger crowd turns up expecting him to resign and then he basically says the same crazy thing: that he's with the people, and because he supports the protesters he can't step down for the sake of the country. It was clear the man was totally out of touch OR was too much of an ego maniac to accept anything but a huge retirement party. Based on the fact that the military has been meeting with the opposition leaders for at least a week now without Mubarak's people present that's a good sign. They've also been speaking with officials in the US, EU and Turkey without Mubarak's people being involved for a while now. I remember one military official even commenting when asked "what is Egypt's military's role in this crisis" - he didn't directly respond, saying there's too many uncertainties, but that he was always an admirer of Turkey's military - Turkey's army of course plays the role of the defender of the constitution and the secular order, stepping in when a government gets too authoritarian in order to clean things up and restore the constitution. They appear to be doing just that, having meetings to revise the articles in the constitution that Mubarak wrote in when he took over to give him the "legitimacy" to impose a semi-police state. Frankly, if Egypt goes the way of Turkey, it will be a huge improvement for the region. While I was there, that was the one country people seemed to really aspire to be like, even if they held a grudge against the old Ottoman empire for it's foreign policy. IF Egypt goes the way of Turkey,it would be a spectacular thing for that region.. Let's just say I'm extremely dubious that this will happen... If someone has to get the "OK" from the Egyptia military to rule that country,is'nt it reasonable to assume that this is still a military sponsored regime,this time,without the face of Mubarak on it? Why would the military in Egypt want things to change for them,as it surely would in a true representative democracy? The only thing another repressive Fascist/military regime will do this time will be to embolden people to go to the Islamofascist side of things to effect change.. This is the problem facing the region over the next 12 to 24 months... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 It's official now: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2011/02/11/egypt-mubarak-future.html Wow! Hats offs and admiration to the people of Egypt. In the last weeks they stood up for, and earned their freedom. Something that will be no doubt remembered in generations, whichever way the subsequent events will turn. Do people still fondly remember the Iranian mobs who stood up and "earned their freedom" thirty years back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 IF Egypt goes the way of Turkey,it would be a spectacular thing for that region.. Or maybe not. Turkey has been slipping slowly and quietly towards Islamism for years now, with an Islamist oriented government which has been carefully whittling away at the powers of the Turkish military and encouraging more and more religious conservatism in the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Do people still fondly remember the Iranian mobs who stood up and "earned their freedom" thirty years back? This is the thing.. Yes,a despotic Fascist dictator leves with his tail between his legs because he wakes up to the fact that people feared him and never really cared for him... It's almost comical in its "Ceaucescuian" insular nature... The real issue is what's coming in the power vacuum that will surely follow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Or maybe not. Turkey has been slipping slowly and quietly towards Islamism for years now, with an Islamist oriented government which has been carefully whittling away at the powers of the Turkish military and encouraging more and more religious conservatism in the country. I agree... However,Turkey is the one place in the Muslim world where a secular push back against Islamofascism might be successful.The fundimentalists can only push so far... And even this Turkey is light years better than an Islamofascist state,run by the Muslim Brotherhood (or some other Islamofascist group) on Israels border... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Do people still fondly remember the Iranian mobs who stood up and "earned their freedom" thirty years back? That does not take away from these people's heroism. But as in that other case, the dictator has been sponsored and supported by certain foreign powers. If these powers were truly worthy of a small part of moral claims they like to present, they wouldn't shy away from admitting their part of responsibility for both the acts under dictatorship and developments thereafter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 That does not take away from these people's heroism. But as in that other case, the dictator has been sponsored and supported by certain foreign powers. If these powers were truly worthy of a small part of moral claims they like to present, they wouldn't shy away from admitting their part of responsibility for both the acts under dictatorship and developments thereafter. So does this mean that the "sponsors" are also heroes for Facebook and Twitter...or even the Internet itself? Gee, it's hard to be hero and villain in the same week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) ... Edited February 11, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Do people still fondly remember the Iranian mobs who stood up and "earned their freedom" thirty years back? Newsflash: Egypt is not Iran. Just because they're mostly Muslim countries, doesn't make them the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) Newsflash: Egypt is not Iran. Just because they're mostly Muslim countries, doesn't make them the same. The potential for an Islamofascist regime in Egypt certainly makes them similar... Unless you're positively convinced that this could never happen in Egypt? Edited February 11, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) Yes, the "mobs" themselves--also known as ordinary Iranians fed up with the regime--do indeed remember the Iranian uprising fondly. They are quite aware of their errors, notably aligning themselves for practical reasons to the religious extremists. But Egypt is not Iran, as JBGlobe points out. This particular uprising is not being led by Islamist forces. It has no real organizing leadership. This can be a weakness, but it's also a strength. (As well as suggesting the sincerity and principled nature of the movement...you know, "principled," the direct opposite of those who look to Washington, or to Western conservative intellectuals, to discover just how they should feel about the matter.) But the uprising has a very strong component of professionals, including judges (this is one of the reasons Washington knew the gig was definitely up); as importantly, or perhaps more importantly, the uprising has a strong, and growing, labour component to it. And the people of Egypt are discovering a new respect for the labour movement, because they've clashed with Egyptian authorities thousands of times (literally) in the past ten years....and now the people are on their side, incontestably. To assume that it must either be "the dictator or the Islamists"--as if the Egyptian people are not quite as enlightened as us--is the height of arrogance. They're undergoing a political awakening, while Western conservatives sit nervously by and cluck their tongues disapprovingly! It's a little aggravating, but more improtantly, it's fucking amusing as hell...all these cowardly little terrorist-supporters, pretending to be worried about terrorism, and shaking their heads at the Egyptian democratic uprising. Awesome. I will add that concerns are legitimate enough; but when those concerns are based on "what Washington thinks" or "what Israel thinks" then they are somewhat beside the point. Unless we're going to say, flat-out (as Saipan has done) that the needs and wants of the Egyptian people are less important than those of Israel or the United States. Which is a stupid opinion. Period. Edited February 11, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 If someone has to get the "OK" from the Egyptia military to rule that country,is'nt it reasonable to assume that this is still a military sponsored regime,this time,without the face of Mubarak on it? Why would the military in Egypt want things to change for them,as it surely would in a true representative democracy? Because I think they can read the writing on the wall. Even though the Egyptian economy has been growing rapidly in the past few years (5-7%) the nature of a dictatorship is that it can't get those gains to distribute across all of society. Egypt's regime is fundamentally corrupt so all that money stays at the top. Democracy isn't prefect, but it's a lot better at redistributing wealth than a regime like Mubarak's. They know that if they take over and noting changes, than their prestigious reputation will be wiped away quickly and soon they'll be the subject of protests. The only other option is to crush the protest movement, but as others have pointed out - it's a conscript army, meaning there's little other than uniform separating the soldiers from the protestors - and no one wants to shoot their brother. The early signs are good, much remains to be done however. The only thing another repressive Fascist/military regime will do this time will be to embolden people to go to the Islamofascist side of things to effect change.. Well that's what people were saying about Mubarak's regime, and that these protests were organized by the Brotherhood, as we've seen, that's not the case - so I'd take these things you're reading with a grain of salt. Hopefully, it won't come to that kind of regime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 The potential for an Islamofascist regime in Egypt certainly makes them similar... Unless you're positively convinced that this could never happen in Egypt? There are key differences between the two. The brotherhood is an organized institution with a charter, the religious opposition to the Shah was more like a network of clerics who didn't have an agenda beyond getting rid of the Shah. As such, they're more predictable, and from the look of it and even from their internal communication, they don't appear to have any desire to seize power. They've done nothing over this period to indicate anything other than their support for reform and free elections. Keep in mind that they didn't even really endorse the protests until the second week, once it was clear it was a widely popular movement - they're very responsive to popular opinion, and right now people want elections - they don't want another regime to seize power. Not my favourite party, but I'll gladly live with them if they make up a portion of a coalition government in an election - knowing that this is a better option than another decade of Mubarak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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