dre Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) bigger footprint? Citation request Like I said. The degree to which these bulbs save energy depends entirely on where you live. So the footprint depends on your local. If you live in the arctic and use electric heat these bulbs wont save a single watt of energy, so theres nothing to offset the additional manufacturing overhead. If you use them in a tropical climate where youre COOLING all year, they will make a huge difference and reduce your footprint considerably. If you live in a cold climate, where youre heating for 10 months of the year then stick with you incandescants. Youll get the smallest footprint that way. Edited February 7, 2011 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
GostHacked Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 bigger footprint? Citation request I'd say they make a bigger footprint by being more costly to produce than your incandescent bulbs. Quote
dre Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 I'd say they make a bigger footprint by being more costly to produce than your incandescent bulbs. Right but in some climates that increased manufacturing profile would be more than offset by energy savings. Not in most of Canada though. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
GostHacked Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Right but in some climates that increased manufacturing profile would be more than offset by energy savings. Not in most of Canada though. Let me correct myself, it would have a bigger footprint due to how they are manufactured. Quote
dre Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Let me correct myself, it would have a bigger footprint due to how they are manufactured. Yup bigger manufacturing footprint. The idea is that additional manufacturing footprint and the additional cost of the bulbs themselves will offset that increased manfucturing foot print by resulting in less power generation capacity needing to be built or tapped, and by smaller hydro bills. In some cases it most definately will. Heres the ideal scenario. You live in a hot desert and you run your air conditioner for 11 months of the year, which is powered by electricity from a coal fired plant. Incandescents will KILL you hear because all the heat they create has to be pumped out of the house by your air conditioner. So not only is your lighting much more expensive, but your air conditioning is as well. If youre paying 10 cents per KWH to run an air conditioner that very last thing you want is 100 watt heaters disbursed all over your house fighting against your air conditioning system. However... If you live in Northern BC, and youre heating for 10 months per year, and you buy electricity from a relatively green utility (like hydro), then forget about it. You wont save any energy at all, and you will just pay more for your lighting. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
waldo Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Like I said. The degree to which these bulbs save energy depends entirely on where you live. indirectly where you live... of course, more directly related to the type of heating utilized (which, equally, reflects upon where you live). Since, almost 70% of Canadians heat their homes by forced air furnace (versus electric baseboards (or heat pumps for that matter)), CFL's would make a difference for those almost 70% of Canadian homes... Quote
GWiz Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 I'll raise your dated 2005, 'all Canada' doc, for a more current 2008 graphic showing Manitoba imports mice-nuts... Hey, be fair, 88 units is A nut, not plural... I remember that ONE day when the transmission line to (I think it was) Morden/Winkler went down... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
dre Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 indirectly where you live... of course, more directly related to the type of heating utilized (which, equally, reflects upon where you live). Since, almost 70% of Canadians heat their homes by forced air furnace (versus electric baseboards (or heat pumps for that matter)), CFL's would make a difference for those almost 70% of Canadian homes... You could be right, but you would have to accurately nail down both the cost and environmental impact of forced air heating, and the price of gas, and so on. If your forced air system is an electric furnace then youre bumping into the same laws of physics all over again, because an electric furnace is no more efficient than incandescent light bulbs at producing heat. It also costs thousands of dollars to purchase and install the furnaces and ducting. If you ask me a far biggest plus for CFL bulbs is labor. When a bulb in my house dies I usually need to get a ladder and a screwdriver or wrench and take the lense off the fixture to change the bulbs. It can take as long as 15 minutes. My time is expensive, and I have almost no free time, so that 15 minutes costs at LEAST 10 or 20 dollars in lost productivity. That pays for the CFL 3 or 4 times over. Im not anti CFL here... Im just pointing out an important factor thats usually ignored... the fact that the heat generated by incandescents is actually a PLUS in some circumstances. The only incandescent bulbs on my property though is in my garden shed, where I want a tiny bit of heat to help keep things from getting damp and modly, and one in my crawlspace for the same reason. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Smallc Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 I'll raise your dated 2005, 'all Canada' doc, for a more current 2008 graphic showing Manitoba imports mice-nuts... And it shows that Manitoba imports some power, probably at off peak times, just like I said. Thanks for playing. Quote
Wild Bill Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 BTW Bill, how much did your new furnace cost? Did you also buy a new air conditioner or are you still using your old ineficient one? How much saving on energy are you getting from your new furnace vs the old one? Do you know? Not enough data points yet, I'm afraid. We've only seen one month of bills so far. We don't run central air so that's not a factor. All we've been able to do is make "guesstimates" based on previous bills. That's how I can see the electricity savings on the new DC motors. Formerly we had an 18 year old mid efficiency gas furnace, one of the early models. It had a big honkin' half horsepower traditional style motor in the bottom for blowing the hot air up and our the vents. The very type of electricity hog motor I've been describing in my comparisons to CFL savings. Incidently, if you figure you're saving $7/month then obviously all the other things you've done are much better advice to achieve the most bang for your buck. That has been my point with CFLs. We've been conned into doing one of the least important things, perhaps because it's a simple thing to sell. Anyhow, comparing bills for gas which show the last half of Dec and the 1st half of January is not very accurate since I'd have to research the temperatures we experienced last year. Obviously if last year was colder we would have burned more gas anyway and vice versa. However, we all know that it HAS been friggin' cold this past month! We would expect to have burned a lot of gas. Yet just comparing the numbers this recent bill was lower by about a third than last year's! We formerly paid $220 and this new bill was for about $150. I'm sorry I can't be very accurate but hopefully this will give a useful "guesstimate". The furnace's installed cost was $4000, including 13% HST. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
GWiz Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Not enough data points yet, I'm afraid. We've only seen one month of bills so far. We don't run central air so that's not a factor. All we've been able to do is make "guesstimates" based on previous bills. That's how I can see the electricity savings on the new DC motors. Formerly we had an 18 year old mid efficiency gas furnace, one of the early models. It had a big honkin' half horsepower traditional style motor in the bottom for blowing the hot air up and our the vents. The very type of electricity hog motor I've been describing in my comparisons to CFL savings. Incidently, if you figure you're saving $7/month then obviously all the other things you've done are much better advice to achieve the most bang for your buck. That has been my point with CFLs. We've been conned into doing one of the least important things, perhaps because it's a simple thing to sell. Anyhow, comparing bills for gas which show the last half of Dec and the 1st half of January is not very accurate since I'd have to research the temperatures we experienced last year. Obviously if last year was colder we would have burned more gas anyway and vice versa. However, we all know that it HAS been friggin' cold this past month! We would expect to have burned a lot of gas. Yet just comparing the numbers this recent bill was lower by about a third than last year's! We formerly paid $220 and this new bill was for about $150. I'm sorry I can't be very accurate but hopefully this will give a useful "guesstimate". The furnace's installed cost was $4000, including 13% HST. Sounds like you got a good deal on your furnace... I guess I'm old school, you know, a penny saved is a dollar earned, but $7 a month to do something you have to do anyway like lighting your home is a-ok with me especially since as I've stated it really didn't cost me anything to do it... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Sir Bandelot Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 Right on! Let me add that the BIGGEST jackasses of all are the people that don't vote (even though they can) or vote completely uninformed... You can call me jackass all you want, I don't care but I will not vote now that I have been disillusioned by the scam we call democratic elections. Over the years I have heard every lie conceivable cme out of politicians mouths, and, being a person who learns from mistakes, I have now reached the point where I will not vote, on principle. It may not matter to you or anyone else, but at least I can look myself in the mirror and not feel ashamed, for putting my name/ vote of support to someone who is a liar and a criminal. I have no confidence in any single one of them. So let me be judged for that, accordingly. Quote
GWiz Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 You can call me jackass all you want, I don't care but I will not vote now that I have been disillusioned by the scam we call democratic elections. Over the years I have heard every lie conceivable cme out of politicians mouths, and, being a person who learns from mistakes, I have now reached the point where I will not vote, on principle. It may not matter to you or anyone else, but at least I can look myself in the mirror and not feel ashamed, for putting my name/ vote of support to someone who is a liar and a criminal. I have no confidence in any single one of them. So let me be judged for that, accordingly. Then say so on your ballot, it's allowed and read... Not voting only guarantees you get the Government YOU deserve and the rest of us who do vote get to BLAME YOU for that... It's YOUR FAULT that Governments get away with the lies you rant on about, not mine, I try to prevent that sort from getting elected, not you... YOU should be ASHAMED to show your face among TRUE Canadians that do VOTE and try to make a difference, though I may disagree with them, I'll still value them as Canadians I have no such respect for people like you... If there was a way to deny you every benefit that Canadians enjoy I'd VOTE to implement it just so people like you don't benefit off the backs of people like me... Consider yourself "judged" a fool of the greatest magnitude and a non-Canadian... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
dre Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 Then say so on your ballot, it's allowed and read... Not voting only guarantees you get the Government YOU deserve and the rest of us who do vote get to BLAME YOU for that... It's YOUR FAULT that Governments get away with the lies you rant on about, not mine, I try to prevent that sort from getting elected, not you... YOU should be ASHAMED to show your face among TRUE Canadians that do VOTE and try to make a difference, though I may disagree with them, I'll still value them as Canadians I have no such respect for people like you... If there was a way to deny you every benefit that Canadians enjoy I'd VOTE to implement it just so people like you don't benefit off the backs of people like me... Consider yourself "judged" a fool of the greatest magnitude and a non-Canadian... I used to think the same way you do... and I bought into the whole "voting is a sacred duty" and "if you dont vote you cant complain" slogans. But now Im starting to wonder... if people going into the polls just to pick the lesser of two evils, and vote for a party they cant stand, is actually a big part of the problem. Ill go the polls if I really think a party has earned my vote. Otherwise Ill stay home. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
waldo Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 Manitoba imports power at night. It saves up hydro power, and sells it for more at peak, making a profit.http://www.gcc.ca/pdf/ENV000000009.pdf I'll raise your dated 2005, 'all Canada' doc, for a more current 2008 graphic showing Manitoba imports mice-nuts... And it shows that Manitoba imports some power, probably at off peak times, just like I said. Thanks for playing. huh! I will match said "mice-nut(s)" against the uncertainties of your stated, "some" and "probably", qualified against the unsubstantiated definitiveness of your suggestion of, "profit taking based on off-peak hydro power storage sold at peak rate"... I will also defer to your splitting mice-nut hairs! Quote
Smallc Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) huh! I will match said "mice-nut(s)" against the uncertainties of your stated, "some" and "probably", qualified against the unsubstantiated definitiveness of your suggestion of, "profit taking based on off-peak hydro power storage sold at peak rate"... I will also defer to your splitting mice-nut hairs! http://findarticles.com/p/news-articles/brandon-sun-the/mi_8087/is_20080802/hydro-imports-dirty-power-times/ai_n50748106/ http://sacramentofordemocracy.org/node/20447 The above was the title of a FP article which is no longer available to be found on the web. Edited February 8, 2011 by Smallc Quote
GWiz Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 I used to think the same way you do... and I bought into the whole "voting is a sacred duty" and "if you dont vote you cant complain" slogans. But now Im starting to wonder... if people going into the polls just to pick the lesser of two evils, and vote for a party they cant stand, is actually a big part of the problem. Ill go the polls if I really think a party has earned my vote. Otherwise Ill stay home. Are you saying that there's no one in your riding worthy of your support? Must be a TERRIBLE place to live... Vote Green, vote independent, RUN yourself... Lots of possibilities... Forget the Leaders, they're not on YOUR ballot... Take the actions necessary to make the changes you would like to see... Not voting is a copout and I have no respect for people not willing to do the simplest thing in being a Canadian and that's a person's VOTE, an informed VOTE... Sorry, if you don't like something but are unwilling do everything you can to change it you don't deserve a TRUE Canadian's respect... One more thing I've NEVER in my life voted for a PARTY, every vote I've ever cast was for a PERSON, a person in my neighbourhood that I was willing to send to Govern on my behalf, and to do that I made a real effort to get to know that person and if he/she met MY requirements as my representative I did what I could to get him/her into that position... Voting isn't just a right, it's a responsibility... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
GWiz Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 http://findarticles.com/p/news-articles/brandon-sun-the/mi_8087/is_20080802/hydro-imports-dirty-power-times/ai_n50748106/ http://sacramentofordemocracy.org/node/20447 The above was the title of a FP article which is no longer available to be found on the web. And you say you live in Winnipeg? NO WAY! Our Hydro is Manitoba's "OIL", what you're saying is like that Alberta doesn't have enough oil and at times brings it's oil up from Texas... GO BOMBERS! Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Jack Weber Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 And you say you live in Winnipeg? NO WAY! Our Hydro is Manitoba's "OIL", what you're saying is like that Alberta doesn't have enough oil and at times brings it's oil up from Texas... GO BOMBERS! Eff the Bombers!!!! Oskee Wee Wee!!!! Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
GWiz Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Eff the Bombers!!!! Oskee Wee Wee!!!! Now where would dem 'ol Ti Cats be without all those ex-Bombers eh... I'm glad you like Blue Bombers EAST, as we call them... Oskee Waa Waa!!!! Edited February 8, 2011 by GWiz Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Smallc Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 And you say you live in Winnipeg? NO WAY! Our Hydro is Manitoba's "OIL", what you're saying is like that Alberta doesn't have enough oil and at times brings it's oil up from Texas... That isn't what I'm saying. i'm saying that Hydro increases profitability by buying cheap US power and selling power back for more by storing water energy. Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Now where would dem 'ol Ti Cats be without all those ex-Bombers eh... I'm glad you like Blue Bombers EAST, as we call them... Oskee Waa Waa!!!! Ya' can keep calling them that every year you finish behind us!!! How's Buckaroo's concusion these days? Did he get another one brushing his hair? Enjoy Chris Bauman... He actually thought he deserved Dave Stala money?!?! Wasting away again in Mosquitoeville is a good place for him!! Holy Mackinaw!!! Tigers!!! Eat 'Em Raw!!! Edited February 8, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
GWiz Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) What loop system did you use? Water or just ground? Any supplemental as in a wood stove ? Ground Loop - 16 - 40 ft. deep holes connected via 3 - 5 ft deep trenches... It's a 4 Tonne unit... No supplements... Sorry, didn't see your post until just now... Edited February 8, 2011 by GWiz Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
GWiz Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 Ya' can keep calling them that every year you finish behind us!!! How's Buckaroo's concusion these days? Did he get another one brushing his hair? Enjoy Chris Bauman... He actually thought he deserved Dave Stala money?!?! Wasting away again in Mosquitoeville is a good place for him!! Holy Mackinaw!!! Tigers!!! Eat 'Em Raw!!! I hate to be the bearer of bad news BUT: Buck's fine, hasn't had one in over a year you know... Shoulder and leg are fine too... If he stays that way your "pussy cats" are in trouble... Bauman ain't here and if he's greedy he won't be, we've got 3 others as good - maybe better we're looking at along with him... But family ties matter, so we'll see, I'm betting Edmonton will get him though... Aren't you too old to be playing with "stuffed" Toys? Better take cover in a few months, some "BIG BLUE" things are gonna start falling on you then... Almost forgot, Brown's coming back and he's anxious to say "HI" to that ex-Bomber Quarterback we gave you... What's his name again? You know, the one our other ex-Quarterback, Jones, is trying to make into a player... Gotta admit though, if I had any say, Khari would be our OC now... He's a GREAT guy and his Ms. is fantastic, you lucked out getting that family there, all of Winnipeg misses them... Can't figure why he's stayed in Smogsville though... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
GWiz Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 That isn't what I'm saying. i'm saying that Hydro increases profitability by buying cheap US power and selling power back for more by storing water energy. You are WRONG and this is my last post on the matter so read it and get educated... Manitoba Hydro - Manitoba has 2 key advantages in exporting electricity: 1.Our province's rivers provide a vast, renewable source of clean energy. 2.The seasonal demand for electricity in the U.S., our largest market, is opposite to our own. (U.S. demand peaks in summer, while Manitoba demand peaks in winter.) Our export electricity sales are made as either: •Long-term contracts that provide a firm supply of electricity at a negotiated, fixed price that will not fluctuate due to market conditions. •Opportunity sales, which are made from short-term surpluses of electricity — usually because of good water conditions. Since the amount of energy available for these sales can change in relatively short periods of time, it cannot be sold as firm or guaranteed energy. Prices in the short-term export market fluctuate and, therefore, our revenues can vary extensively depending on: ◦time of day; ◦water conditions; ◦natural gas prices; ◦other factors. Even when market prices are low, we may pursue opportunity sales because of high water conditions and our low costs associated with generating that additional electricity. The alternative would be to spill the water at our generating stations and forego making any revenue at all. - There's no "storing" water, you should know better... NOTHING happens on any "daily basis", night or day basis, and you are being silly about it... Read the whole link and be very glad you're not paying EXPENSIVE (not cheap as you said) US RATES for your Electricity needs... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
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