Judge declares Obamacare unconstitutional

[Bonam]

I'm also quite impressed with the countering Tea-Party mentality that (now) wants to push for a law to force Americans to own guns. If you're "forced" to buy health insurance... surely... you can be forced to purchase a gun! Only in America!

I'm not aware of the details of any such push but I do think there is value in a program where the citizens of a country receive mandatory training in firearms usage and are required to own one. Something along the lines of the system in Switzerland, perhaps. Certainly, properly trained gun owners are better than clueless ones.

[pinko]

As much as I utterly despise this statute, I'm not sure that ruling it unconstitutional is the way to go. I haven't read the ruling yet but I strongly suspect it reflects the judge's political and policy beliefs rather than a reading of the Constitution.

I'd much rather simply see Congress refuse to fund it. A constitutional challenge, especially one where the justification is weak, is undemocratic.

Isn't one of the issues state rights?

I agree with you that this should be settled in the political arena.

[BubberMiley]

Exactly. But some people don't pay attention to details.

Anyways, somebody else saw a problem with individual mandates as well. Somebody back in 2008.

Wasn't that when Mitt Romney still supported the individual mandate? After he got the idea from Bob Dole and George H.W. Bush and Richard Nixon before him?

[Pliny]

Yes, sorry for having an opinion. Would you make rather make it illegal for me to express it ?

Unlike the debate on "fluff news", I don't want to ban your opinion. I just want people to want something better.

I think the Americans do want something better and they are pretty much the only first world nation that can still be innovative enough to change. The rest of the "social democracies" have perfect systems that need only add "resources" when necessary. Their hue and cry is, "Don't touch our health care!" which when translated means keep adding those "resources".

Americans are positioned better than all those social democracies to come up with something better. Obamacare is not a better idea it is the same old tired socialist idea that government will provide from those according to their ability and to those according to their need.

Insurance companies and current government regulations are, in my opinion, in need of change. There really isn't too much economic difference between the single government insurance monopoly we have and the oligarchic insurance structure in the US. They both contribute to excessive costs. The US has someone that can change the regulatory structure and the management of health care, it's their government. We, in Canada, have no one since the government runs our health care it will do what it wants and what the special interests demand, the citizens will of course vote in favour of the entitlement because they are unprepared to look after themselves. Of course, the leftist self-righteous proponents of social justice do not wish any responsibility for the unwashed masses to fall on them directly and demand the nebulous agency we call government to arrogate that responsiblity.

As bush_cheney says the founders in America had not much of a concept of socialized medicine but they knew that if Government looks after your health they will regulate everything from your diet to your activities.

What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals.” –Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393

This means that if one person does not have the right to force another to provide health care (or any good or service) against his will, then no group of people has (t)he right to do so, and hence government has no right to do so. Doing so would be an act of aggression.

Patient Power

[Pliny]

Wasn't that when Mitt Romney still supported the individual mandate? After he got the idea from Bob Dole and George H.W. Bush and Richard Nixon before him?

The idea is pervasive in government, isn't it. I don't remember seeing Dole's, Bush's or Nixon's government health care plan though. Do both Massachusetts on the whole and Mitt Romney, regret the legislation?

As long as it is not a federally mandated system it still allows enough freedom among the States themselves to devise, adjust and experiment with different concepts. A federally mandated system has no such liberties.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Pliny

[Moonlight Graham]

The "Obamacare" law has nothing to do with "public healthcare", in case you didn't know.

Ah yes duh on me, you're right. It just forces people to buy a private plan. Therefore, it would still be constitutional for them to put in place universal public healthcare since you aren't being "forced" to do anything from "inactivity".

[Bonam]

It just forces people to buy a private plan. Therefore, it would still be constitutional for them to put in place universal public healthcare since you aren't being "forced" to do anything from "inactivity".

Yes, I think a public health care plan probably would be constitutional. But the existing act is not.

[dre]

Ah yes duh on me, you're right. It just forces people to buy a private plan. Therefore, it would still be constitutional for them to put in place universal public healthcare since you aren't being "forced" to do anything from "inactivity".

Yeah thats how the whole hose-job was perpetrated. The mandate was pushed as a provision in the origional bill that had a public option. It makes absolutely no sense without it. Then the public option was removed and the mandate was left in, making it the perfect corporate welfare bill. Citizens are now forced by law to be customers of the very companies that we NOW know wrote this bill

Be almost funny if we werent talking about healthcare for millions of people!

[Bonam]

Yeah thats how the whole hose-job was perpetrated. The mandate was pushed as a provision in the origional bill that had a public option. It makes absolutely no sense without it. Then the public option was removed and the mandate was left in

Yes, a big mistake from my point of view. It still makes sense from a socialist's point of view though, since it forces people with means and good health to pay into a system that supports those who need health care.

making it the perfect corporate welfare bill. Citizens are now forced by law to be customers of the very companies that we NOW know wrote this bill

Kinda, yeah. Still, if I were the CEO of a company, I'd much rather my customers were customers by choice, rather than being compelled to be my customers by the government. It does not create a good client relationship when your clients are forced by law into the agreement.

Also, the companies will use most of the money they gain by people being forced to buy health insurance to pay for people with "pre-existing conditions" that they are no longer allowed to drop or jack up the premiums on.

Anyway, bad bill all around, on top of a system that's pretty messed up already.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Bonam

[dre]

Yes, a big mistake from my point of view. It still makes sense from a socialist's point of view though, since it forces people with means and good health to pay into a system that supports those who need health care.

Kinda, yeah. Still, if I were the CEO of a company, I'd much rather my customers were customers by choice, rather than being compelled to be my customers by the government. It does not create a good client relationship when your clients are forced by law into the agreement.

Also, the companies will use most of the money they gain by people being forced to buy health insurance to pay for people with "pre-existing conditions" that they are no longer allowed to drop or jack up the premiums on.

Anyway, bad bill all around, on top of a system that's pretty messed up already.

Kinda, yeah. Still, if I were the CEO of a company, I'd much rather my customers were customers by choice, rather than being compelled to be my customers by the government. It does not create a good client relationship when your clients are forced by law into the agreement.

YOU might do that, but trust me... most CEO's will be happier to have the guaranteed revenue.

It still makes sense from a socialist's point of view though, since it forces people with means and good health to pay into a system that supports those who need health care.

Not really. Socialists are actually pretty pissed about the whole thing.

[bloodyminded]

Yes, a big mistake from my point of view. It still makes sense from a socialist's point of view though, since it forces people with means and good health to pay into a system that supports those who need health care.

The Left, including those who are socialist-minded, tend largely to dislike it.

Just like Bush, Obama has his 30% of diehards who support virtually everything he does, including what he will do later. They're not socialists; they're mainstream, Establishment liberals and centrists.

Kinda, yeah. Still, if I were the CEO of a company, I'd much rather my customers were customers by choice, rather than being compelled to be my customers by the government.

That's why you're not one. Big Business does not work through "free market" principles, except when those principles work directly in their favour.

[Pliny]

Not really. Socialists are actually pretty pissed about the whole thing.

For what reasons? I would think because it doesn't go far enough. It isn't socialist enough.

Are we making a link to the tea party and the socialists. Something they both agree upon - Obamacare sucks. A bi-partisan meeting of minds. It seems everyone voted on party lines in the Senate to scrap the recent repeal act. Are there no democrats that will stand for the left and repeal this piece of crap.

bloodyminded wrote: Just like Bush, Obama has his 30% of diehards who support virtually everything he does, including what he will do later. They're not socialists; they're mainstream, Establishment liberals and centrists.

yet no liberals and centrists in the democrat camp voted to repeal the "largely disliked" Obamacare.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Pliny