American (Canadian) - Israeli Special Relationship

[Rue]

egypt and jordan are not occupying and annexing palestinian land.

what mumble jumble you type.

Where was Jordan carved out of? Poof it just appeared from nowhere.

The Egyptians created the Gaza strip as an open air corridor to trap and contain Palestinians from moving into Israel.

But hey you knew that.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Rue

[jbg]

Where was Jordan carved out of? Poof it just appeared from nowhere.

Another one of many failed efforts to appease Muslim powers, that started with early temporizing at the beginning of WW I.

The Egyptians created the Gaza strip as an open air corridor to trap and contain Palestinians from moving into Israel.

Did you mean to keep them out of Egypt? I suspect a typo.

[bud]

jbg

you make irresponsible and irrational comments and then run off when you're confronted.

weak.

[JB Globe]

jbg

you make irresponsible and irrational comments and then run off when you're confronted.

weak.

Cosign

This guy is unbelievable sometimes.

I mean really - is it too much to ask for him to outline why it's in Canada's economic, political, or strategic interests to support Israel to the extreme we do now? Did he not expect someone to put that question to him when he made the post?

I've never heard an explanation from hardcore Israel supporters why we need to support Israel to a much greater degree than we do say, the US or the UK. We don't go to bat for them the way we do Israel.

[Jonsa]

Is it worth being associated with Hamas or I'm-A-Dinner-Jacket?

I'm-a-dinner-jacket.

[Bonam]

I've never heard an explanation from hardcore Israel supporters why we need to support Israel to a much greater degree than we do say, the US or the UK. We don't go to bat for them the way we do Israel.

What? Our ties with the US are far closer than are our ties with Israel.

[jbg]

jbg

you make irresponsible and irrational comments and then run off when you're confronted.

weak.

Cosign

This guy is unbelievable sometimes.

I mean really - is it too much to ask for him to outline why it's in Canada's economic, political, or strategic interests to support Israel to the extreme we do now? Did he not expect someone to put that question to him when he made the post?

I've never heard an explanation from hardcore Israel supporters why we need to support Israel to a much greater degree than we do say, the US or the UK. We don't go to bat for them the way we do Israel.

Israel is a democracy much the way Canada is. The Arab powers aren't. Israel is a high-tech leader. The Arab powers aren't. Need I go on?

And as far as "running off" I have other things to do than post on boards during the work day. Do either of you?

[JB Globe]

Israel is a democracy much the way Canada is. The Arab powers aren't. Israel is a high-tech leader. The Arab powers aren't. Need I go on?

Yes you do, because you haven't answered my question, all you've done is listed two ways in which Canada and Israel are similar.

You haven't explained what Canada gets out of unfailingly supporting all of Israel's foreign policy moves as we've done since Harper's come to office. What do we get about supporting Israel to a degree that we don't even reserve for the US?

How does it help our economy? Examples?

How does it help us politically? Examples?

How does it help us strategically? Examples?

Are you incapable of providing a rational for the "special relationship?"

[WIP]

Israel is a democracy much the way Canada is. The Arab powers aren't. Israel is a high-tech leader. The Arab powers aren't. Need I go on?

I would say Israel is a democracy much the way South Africa was during Apartheid, or the U.S. was pre-Civil Rights.... since it is a democracy that privileges one group over another.

Also, for years we've been told we have to support Israel because it is the only Western democracy in the Middle East. The lack of freedom there was taken as a given that 'that's just the way Arabs are!' Now, we discover that U.S. Foreign Policy prefers useful despots who sign blank cheques when it comes to U.S. interests in the area. No surprise now that democracy was never encouraged, as (has happened with Turkey) democracies may be inclined to follow their own national interests, rather than what's good for U.S. and Israel.

[bush_cheney2004]

I would say Israel is a democracy much the way South Africa was during Apartheid, or the U.S. was pre-Civil Rights.... since it is a democracy that privileges one group over another.

Well if that's the case, I would say Israel is a democracy much the way Canada is...NOW. Just ask the First Nations or Quebec. Still waiting for land claims to be settled after all these years.

....No surprise now that democracy was never encouraged, as (has happened with Turkey) democracies may be inclined to follow their own national interests, rather than what's good for U.S. and Israel.

If you do your homework you will find US hands and money all over Turkey as well. Wanna buy some slightly used Jupiter missiles?

Edited February 16, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

Israel and Canada have an existing fair trade deal...I like the section about "artifacts of animal gut"....except for silk worms!

http://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/agr-acc/israel/index.aspx

[scouterjim]

I can understand giving vocal support to Israel, but Isreal is quite able to look after herself. Israel has the besttrained, best equipped, and best armed military in the Middle East (plus nuclear weapons). In no way should the west be drawn into any conflict Israel may find herself in.

[Rue]

Bud you stated:

"israel's system is a mixture of advanced democracy and retrogressive discrimination, combined with clumsy attempts to hide the discriminatory reality."

This Zionist is willing to admit the above. There has been discrimination against not just Arab Israelis but non Orthodox Jewish Israelis, Beduins and between Askkanazi and Tsfardic and Felashie Jews.

There is no doubt Israel has its problems. It is not all smooth sailing.

I am not about to make a sweeping pronouncement that there is no discrimination. There is. What I will say though is it is not all simply against non Jews its against so many people and its not always caused by religion.

For example the assimilation problems of the Beduins is identical to Israel as it is in Egypt, Syria, and many other Arab countries. The Beduins have resisted assimilation into urban collectives and so find themselves caught like aboriginal peoples in Canada, in a no man's land.

Much discrimination in Israel comes from another practical problem. In Israel everyone is called into the armed forces for two years and is on call until they retire. So from 18-65 you are in the reserve if not on active duty.

You can choose to opt out of service if you are a Muslim Israeli,Arab Israeli, non Jewish Israeli, or ultra-orthodox Jew. However if you choose to opt out, you don't get security clearance and this means from a practical reality you can't get many jobs in Israel because in this small country, most jobs now need military security clearance so whether you are Jewish or non Jewish, you are discriminated against equally if we must use that word in that if you don't have security clearance so many jobs will not be available to you. The fact though is the IDF has had Beduin and Arab and Druze soldiers and in particular heros have come from all three. Men of valor who fought and died for Israel in its IDF came from all three groups.

Now in regards to religious discrimination, the Rabbinical courts have made discriminatory findings against Felashies and Reform Jews like me and humanist and atheist Jews and non orthodox Jews. They discriminate against us with who is a Jew and marriage concepts more than they do Muslims and Christians who they stay hands off on when it comes to marriages or divorces. If anything I suffer more discrimination in Israel by the Rabbinical courts then any Muslim or Christian.

Then we can get into complex sub issues such as women and gays. Women in orthodox Jewish or Muslim communities are more likely to suffer from domestic abuse that is left unchecked then women in the rest of Israeli Jewish society. why-because the abusers can opt out of the regular family court system and go to religious Jewish, Christian and Muslim tribunals which favour archaic anti women laws. So in that sense discrimination of women is far more complex than Jew or Muslim.

In terms of gay Israelis well the state of Israel has human rights legislation, tribunals and courts that will defend their rights against discrimination but the reality is a gay Israeli if he is orthodox, Muslim, or orthodox Christian suffers discrimination. Again its complicated and its not black and white as to who does it against who.

So my point is the pro orthodox Jewish laws in fact discriminate more against non orthodox jews in many cases then they do Muslims or Christians and so its misleading to say its a theocracy in the sense where Jews are discriminated in favour of because of our religion. Its just not true. Its become far more complicated then that. Some of the discrimination is gender orientated, gender preference orientated-fundamental orthodox religious v.s. progressive modernist religious and some is because of the security clearance issue.

Unlike Jews in Muslim countries, Muslim Jews can own land in Israel and have had their land rights upheld in the courts. Muslims in Israel openly vote. Some say municipal funds are not shared with them fairly but againt there is another reason for that.

Muslims are less likely to pay taxes. In fact most don't. They don't pay taxes and so there is no money to give them back for municipal development in their quarters. Some of it is a cultural difference in viewing government and the importance of paying taxes as a citizen. Its not anti Zionist-its an apolitical cultural one that existed long before Israel was created and is a clash between Western and Eastern views as to the role of government and taxes.

Some of it, particularly in East Jerusalem is complex. Some of the disputes in East Jerusalem have come about because Arab residents have illegally seized land that was not owned by them. Some times to be fair, discriminatory government practices make it practically impossible for Palestinians to live in certain areas as permits are given to Jewish Israelis to expand. Both sides have been guilty of suspect behaviour.

There are no shortage of Israeli court decisions making findings of discriminatory practice against Muslim Israelis by the Israeli government as well so to deny that is pointless. Its true and the courts had to step in to protect Arab Israelis and probably will in the near future again over certain land title disputes.

So I will concede your point. I will debate you yes, but I will be open and fair minded as well to your comments.Your comment I think for the above reasons is a fair one to say.

I believe Israel struggles. On the one hand it wants to be a progressive modern democracy on the other however are fundamentalist religious tendencies and historic land disputes and the need to protect the Jewish collective identity through state institutions which is the pith and substance of Zionism with the democratic concepts of fairness and equality and seperation of state from religion.

The two most certainly conflict at times and present real existential challenges to the future of Israel.

Ironically if Zionism remains true to democracy, then necessarily Arab Israelis will eventually outnumber Jewish Israelis and vote theJewish nature of the state out of existence.

Therein lies the irony and explains why some Israeli politicians believe if Israel is to survive a way to cap Arab Israeli population growth to assure Jews remain the majority in Israel must be achieved. How that would be achieved democratically is anyone's guess. It may not be possible.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Rue

[jbg]

You haven't explained what Canada gets out of unfailingly supporting all of Israel's foreign policy moves as we've done since Harper's come to office. What do we get about supporting Israel to a degree that we don't even reserve for the US?

How does it help our economy? Examples?

How does it help us politically? Examples?

How does it help us strategically? Examples?

Are you incapable of providing a rational for the "special relationship?"

I can understand giving vocal support to Israel, but Isreal is quite able to look after herself. Israel has the besttrained, best equipped, and best armed military in the Middle East (plus nuclear weapons). In no way should the west be drawn into any conflict Israel may find herself in.

My point is that the West overall benefits by having a stable forward base in a vital but highly volatile part of the world. I suspect that no other countries in that region could be relied upon not have a sudden upheaval that makes their real estate inaccessible.

For example, Egypt's revolution has already made it unreliable. It is letting Iranian warships use the Suez Canal (link, excerpts below).

Jerusalem (CNN) -- Two Iranian warships are expected to pass through the Suez Canal Wednesday night on their way to Syria, a move that Israel considers a "provocation," Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Liberman said.

The passage is "something which has not happened in many years," Liberman said.

"This is a provocation that proves that the self-confidence and insolence of the Iranians is growing from day to day," he said. "This happens after the Iranian president's visit to south Lebanon and his aggressive declarations there towards Israel."

******************

Liberman urged Israel's allies to pay attention.

"We expect the international community to act speedily with determination against the Iranian provocations, designed to deteriorate the situation in the area, and put the Iranians in their place," he said.

[Black Dog]

My point is that the West overall benefits by having a stable forward base in a vital but highly volatile part of the world. I suspect that no other countries in that region could be relied upon not have a sudden upheaval that makes their real estate inaccessible.

Does the west actually benefit, though? I think that's the point you need to prove. You can claim that that's the rationale behind it, but it plays out in reality is a whole other story.

[GostHacked]

Or more directly...Israel does what Israel does for the same reasons as Canada. It's not complicated, but for some reason, nation state Israel is to be held to a different standard. Why?

It's an obvious double standard. Because the USA likes to do just that, hold other countries to a different standard. Iraq does as Iraq does . .but what they was doin was not good enough for the USA. Yeah yeah Canada does the same fucking shit, and I am tired of our countries going into these places to make it better when for the most part making it worse.

And we wonder why people hate us and want to kill us.................. idiots.

[jbg]

Does the west actually benefit, though? I think that's the point you need to prove. You can claim that that's the rationale behind it, but it plays out in reality is a whole other story.

After the loss of Iran, and possibly Egypt, as reliable Western allies, do you really want to find out?

[bush_cheney2004]

...For example, Egypt's revolution has already made it unreliable. It is letting Iranian warships use the Suez Canal (link, excerpts below).

That's OK...makes 'em a lot easier to sink. Dive! Dive!

[Black Dog]

After the loss of Iran, and possibly Egypt, as reliable Western allies, do you really want to find out?

And the artless dodger strikes again.

[JB Globe]

My point is that the West overall benefits by having a stable forward base in a vital but highly volatile part of the world.

How is Israel a forward base? There are no NATO troops stationed there. Israel has never been used, even during the Iraq war, as a staging point for Western troops. During the Iraq war the US used Turkey, Qatar, the UAE, Kuwait, and aircraft carriers as forward bases.

If anything unconditional support for Israel (to a degree we don't even reserve for the US) has marginalized Canada's already limited role in the middle east.

I think it harms Canadian foreign policy more than it helps, because when it comes time to talk trade, Middle East nations are reluctant to trade openly with a lap-dog of the Netanyahu government.

I suspect that no other countries in that region could be relied upon not have a sudden upheaval that makes their real estate inaccessible.

Turkey, they're already in NATO. Plus there appears to be lots of stability in most of the gulf states besides Bahrain.

For example, Egypt's revolution has already made it unreliable. It is letting Iranian warships use the Suez Canal

You're probably not aware of this but: Egypt isn't "letting" any nation use the canal - it's an international shipping lane and by law it can't restrict access to any nation for any reason unless they are at war with Egypt.

I'm still at a loss as to why it pays to unconditionally support the foreign policy of a nation that has been roundly condemned by the whole world (even by most of our closest allies).

Frankly, unconditionally support for Israel goes against Canada's national interest. The only real benefit seems to be this mistaken belief that backing Israel unconditionally will win you a few seats in an election (which, as the Jewish population in Canada falls, and Israel's popularity among Canadians continues to suffer, may not be a good long-term bet.). That and you win some evangelical votes - because of course, supporting Israel for them means bringing about the end-times.

Edited February 18, 2011 by JB Globe

[bush_cheney2004]

How is Israel a forward base? There are no NATO troops stationed there. Israel has never been used, even during the Iraq war, as a staging point for Western troops. During the Iraq war the US used Turkey, Qatar, the UAE, Kuwait, and aircraft carriers as forward bases.

There is more to war than "forward bases"...Israel provided critical overflight rights, intelligence gathering, collaboration, logistics, and military liaison/training with deployed US troops in Israel.

[jbg]

How is Israel a forward base? There are no NATO troops stationed there. Israel has never been used, even during the Iraq war, as a staging point for Western troops. During the Iraq war the US used Turkey, Qatar, the UAE, Kuwait, and aircraft carriers as forward bases.

Maybe not now but in a real regional conflagration can you really see Israel putting itself off-limits?

[JB Globe]

Maybe not now but in a real regional conflagration can you really see Israel putting itself off-limits?

Doesn't matter, Israel doesn't have the capacity to host other nation's militaries. They don't have large army and air bases like say, Turkey, which they can rent out space at to other countries.

Also - why do we need to unconditionally support Israel in order to have this option? Couldn't we just treat them like we do the US or UK and not rubber-stamp every single foreign policy move they make? Other nations we're not particularly close with let us use their bases, after all.

It's pretty clear that there is no political, economic, strategic benefit to supporting Israel to the degree that we currently do.

[scouterjim]

Israel wields too much power in Canada and the US. I am not anti-Israel, but I think both Canada and the US need to stop taking orders from Israel. Olmert ordered Bush to veto a vote in the UN about Gaza, and Bush complied. Israel tells Canada not to speak about the Gaza flotilla, and Canada complies. Why? We are supposed to be independent nations. Why do our governments take orders from a country so small it can be lost in almost any province (except PEI)?

[Jonsa]

You're probably not aware of this but: Egypt isn't "letting" any nation use the canal - it's an international shipping lane and by law it can't restrict access to any nation for any reason unless they are at war with Egypt.

you're probably not aware of this but when it comes to warships, they must request passage 48 hours in advance and Egypt can deny passage without reason.

I'm still at a loss as to why it pays to unconditionally support the foreign policy of a nation that has been roundly condemned by the whole world (even by most of our closest allies).

Who would those "closest allies be"?

And what has Israel been condemned for by the whole world? I presume you mean condemned by UNGA resolutions.