American (Canadian) - Israeli Special Relationship

[bush_cheney2004]

Israel wields too much power in Canada and the US. I am not anti-Israel, but I think both Canada and the US need to stop taking orders from Israel.

This is somewhat ironic...thinking what both the US and Canada should do with respect to Israel.

Olmert ordered Bush to veto a vote in the UN about Gaza, and Bush complied. Israel tells Canada not to speak about the Gaza flotilla, and Canada complies. Why?

Because the US would have voted that way in any case.

We are supposed to be independent nations. Why do our governments take orders from a country so small it can be lost in almost any province (except PEI)?

Canada and the US are independent nations...they do not take orders from Israel. However, they do have aligned interests and objectives.

[scouterjim]

This is somewhat ironic...thinking what both the US and Canada should do with respect to Israel.

Because the US would have voted that way in any case.

Canada and the US are independent nations...they do not take orders from Israel. However, they do have aligned interests and objectives.

[scouterjim]

This is somewhat ironic...thinking what both the US and Canada should do with respect to Israel.

Because the US would have voted that way in any case.

Canada and the US are independent nations...they do not take orders from Israel. However, they do have aligned interests and objectives.

[scouterjim]

I respectfully disagree. Olmert bragged about how he made Bush do as he said. AIPAC in the US, and the Canada-Israel Committee wield far too much influence and power.

[Jonsa]

Doesn't matter, Israel doesn't have the capacity to host other nation's militaries. They don't have large army and air bases like say, Turkey, which they can rent out space at to other countries.

If only you knew what you were talking about.

The US and Israel regularly conduct war games. In these games they regularly practice integration of Command and control across all military disciplines. Israel could easily "host" the US 6th fleet, or any number of USAF wings and could immediately deploy a couple of divisions of Abrams.

Also - why do we need to unconditionally support Israel in order to have this option? Couldn't we just treat them like we do the US or UK and not rubber-stamp every single foreign policy move they make? Other nations we're not particularly close with let us use their bases, after all.

Only until we don't let them expand their commercial airline operations in Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

I respectfully disagree. Olmert bragged about how he made Bush do as he said. AIPAC in the US, and the Canada-Israel Committee wield far too much influence and power.

Olmert bragged about a lot of things. AIPAC is an American lobby, not Israeli.

[Jonsa]

I respectfully disagree. Olmert bragged about how he made Bush do as he said. AIPAC in the US, and the Canada-Israel Committee wield far too much influence and power.

1. Where and when did Olmert brag about this?

2. What form does this influence and power take? How do you quantify this influence and power? What is too much?

[scouterjim]

1. Where and when did Olmert brag about this?

2. What form does this influence and power take? How do you quantify this influence and power? What is too much?

Look it up. Google "Olmert orders Bush". You'll find it.

As to influence, AIPAC routinely makes large donations to US Congressmen and Senators to follow what they want.

How much is too much? ANY is too much.

Edited February 18, 2011 by scouterjim

[bush_cheney2004]

...As to influence, AIPAC routinely makes large donations to US Congressmen and Senators to follow what they want.

How much is too much? ANY is too much.

So do Canadian softwood lumber lobbyists...so what? AIPAC is an American lobby with members from all over the political spectrum. There are many legally registered lobbyists in Washington DC, so why only pick on the one that favors Israel?

[Bonam]

So do Canadian softwood lumber lobbyists...so what? AIPAC is an American lobby with members from all over the political spectrum. There are many legally registered lobbyists in Washington DC, so why only pick on the one that favors Israel?

He is afraid of the evil Jewish conspiracy to rule the world.

[bush_cheney2004]

He is afraid of the evil Jewish conspiracy to rule the world.

Never before have so many been afraid of so few!

[bud]

2. What form does this influence and power take? How do you quantify this influence and power? What is too much?

this is too much influence:

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1292/9212013.html

(Following is a transcript of the Oct. 22, 1992 conversation with President David Steiner of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) recorded without his knowledge by New York businessman Haim (Harry) Katz. Its existence was first revealed to the Washington Times and its release triggered Steiner's resignation.

DS: Yeah! Well, we might lose him. There's been such a sea change, such trouble this year, I can't believe all our friends that are in trouble. Because there's an anti-incumbency mood, and foreign aid has not been popular. You know what I got for, I met with [u.S. Secretary of State] Jim Baker and I cut a deal with him. I got, besides the $3 billion, you know they're looking for the Jewish votes, and I'll tell him whatever he wants to hear. . .

HK: Right.

DS: Besides the $10 billion in loan guarantees which was a fabulous thing, $3 billion in foreign, in military aid, and I got almost a billion dollars in other goodies that people don't even know about.

HK: Such as?

DS: $700 million in military draw-down, from equipment that the United States Army's going to give to Israel; $200 million the U.S. government is going to preposition materials in Israel, which Israel can draw upon; put them in the global warning protection system; so when if there's a missile fired, they'll get the same advanced notification that the U.S., is notified, joint military exercises—I've got a whole shopping list of things.

HK: So this is from Baker?

DS: From Baker and from the Pentagon.

HK: So, not so, not.. .

DS: Why did he do it, you know, why did he do it? Last year I was a bum. This year I said look Jim, we're going to fight on the F-l5s. Israel doesn't want to fight, I said, but some people on it are going to come up on the floor of the Senate and the House and they're going to fight. If you'll do this, I think I can hold them back. But you've got to do it right away. They didn't want to fight. I said, "You don't want a fight before the election. It's going to hurt Bush. We don't want a fight before the election. We don't want to fight at all. Why can't we work something out?" So we cut a deal. You can't repeat this.

HK: You're right. But you met with Baker. . .

DS: Personally.

HK: Personally. Because you know, he's the one who cursed, who cursed the Jews.

DS: Of course, do you think I'm ever going to forgive him for that?

HK: Unbelievable. I said...

DS: Do you think I could ever forgive Bush for what he did September 12th a year ago? What he said about the Jews for lobbying in Washington?

HK: Do you think that Baker has a legitimate concern for the Jews? From what I hear, do you think he's anti-Semitic?

DS: I wouldn't go so far as to say that. He's a pragmatic businessman, he's a very tough lawyer. He does whatever it takes.

HK: And that's why.. .

DS: If we didn't have an election this year, you would get [unintelligible] from him.

[DogOnPorch]

this is too much influence:

...and not enough interest* in their enemies.

*Wahhhh...where's our billions of US aid?

[scouterjim]

He is afraid of the evil Jewish conspiracy to rule the world.

Nonsense. I don't fear a "Jewish conspiracy to rule the world." I just want to know why Canada and the US are so beholden to Israel. What has Israel ever done that would elicit such blind support? They have bombed Beirut indiscrimninatly, but nothing was said. They attacked the Gaza convoy, nothing was said. I have been waiting since 1967 for the US to say something about the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty besides "Ooops". I believe in Israel's right to exist. I always have. However, I do not believe that we shoul;d give them blind obedience and support.

[Jonsa]

Look it up. Google "Olmert orders Bush". You'll find it.

As to influence, AIPAC routinely makes large donations to US Congressmen and Senators to follow what they want.

How much is too much? ANY is too much.

Those quotes were bullshit and you know it.

And these large donations. Yep Its amazing that these congressmen and senators can be bought for a lousy 500 or $1000 bucks. Not even the price of a really good night out on the town.

You are accusing the US Congress of accepting bribes. You are accusing the american political process of corruption on a penny ante scale.

[DogOnPorch]

Nonsense. I don't fear a "Jewish conspiracy to rule the world." I just want to know why Canada and the US are so beholden to Israel. What has Israel ever done that would elicit such blind support? They have bombed Beirut indiscrimninatly, but nothing was said. They attacked the Gaza convoy, nothing was said. I have been waiting since 1967 for the US to say something about the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty besides "Ooops". I believe in Israel's right to exist. I always have. However, I do not believe that we shoul;d give them blind obedience and support.

Israel was a defacto NATO member during the Cold War while the Arabs were defacto Warsaw Pact.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nonsense. I don't fear a "Jewish conspiracy to rule the world." I just want to know why Canada and the US are so beholden to Israel.

Are you an American? I want to know why you are interested and wish to influence American foreign policy decisions.

What has Israel ever done that would elicit such blind support? They have bombed Beirut indiscrimninatly, but nothing was said. They attacked the Gaza convoy, nothing was said. I have been waiting since 1967 for the US to say something about the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty besides "Ooops".

The USA did plenty about the USS Liberty attack...what did you expect them to do...bomb Israel? Don't you see the contradiction in wanting America to do certain things while criticizing Israel for the exact same desire?

I believe in Israel's right to exist. I always have. However, I do not believe that we shoul;d give them blind obedience and support.

And I believe in Canada's right to exist. Do you know how patronizing that sounds? Israel instantiated itself in 1948 regardless of how "we" feel about it. Israel does not need "our" permission to exist.

Edited February 18, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

The USA did plenty about the USS Liberty attack...what did you expect them to do...bomb Israel? Don't you see the contradiction in wanting America to do certain things while criticizing Israel for the exact same desire?

The Liberty event was the result of a whole bunch of communication screw-ups between not only the US and Israel but within both the US and Israeli militaries themselves. Orders were lost, ignored, forgotton...etc.

[bush_cheney2004]

The Liberty event was the result of a whole bunch of communication screw-ups between not only the US and Israel but within both the US and Israeli militaries themselves. Orders were lost, ignored, forgotton...etc.

Yep, and if anything, it accelerated closer ties between their respective military organizations. USS Liberty was collecting intelligence for another purpose entirely, such was its Cold War role.

[DogOnPorch]

Yep, and if anything, it accelerated closer ties between their respective military organizations. USS Liberty was collecting intelligence for another purpose entirely, such was its Cold War role.

Indeedy. But those not around during those days (and also have a bone to pick with Israel) often use it as a talking point as to why the US shouldn't be friends with Israel.

[bush_cheney2004]

Indeedy. But those not around during those days (and also have a bone to pick with Israel) often use it as a talking point as to why the US shouldn't be friends with Israel.

They sure do, not realizing the result of the attack was counter intuitive. Israel served US purposes well during the Cold War, and continues to do so. I wonder if the naval base at Haifa is as nice as I remember it?

Edited February 18, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

They sure do, not realizing the result of the attack was counter intuitive. Israel served US purposes well during the Cold War, and continues to do so. I wonder if the naval base at Haifa is as nice as I remember it?

Yes...and both militaries consider the case to be closed.

[bud]

phew! good thing that we went to the second page. lets pretend this information is not out there:

2. What form does this influence and power take? How do you quantify this influence and power? What is too much?

this is too much influence:

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1292/9212013.html

(Following is a transcript of the Oct. 22, 1992 conversation with President David Steiner of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) recorded without his knowledge by New York businessman Haim (Harry) Katz. Its existence was first revealed to the Washington Times and its release triggered Steiner's resignation.

DS: Yeah! Well, we might lose him. There's been such a sea change, such trouble this year, I can't believe all our friends that are in trouble. Because there's an anti-incumbency mood, and foreign aid has not been popular. You know what I got for, I met with [u.S. Secretary of State] Jim Baker and I cut a deal with him. I got, besides the $3 billion, you know they're looking for the Jewish votes, and I'll tell him whatever he wants to hear. . .

HK: Right.

DS: Besides the $10 billion in loan guarantees which was a fabulous thing, $3 billion in foreign, in military aid, and I got almost a billion dollars in other goodies that people don't even know about.

HK: Such as?

DS: $700 million in military draw-down, from equipment that the United States Army's going to give to Israel; $200 million the U.S. government is going to preposition materials in Israel, which Israel can draw upon; put them in the global warning protection system; so when if there's a missile fired, they'll get the same advanced notification that the U.S., is notified, joint military exercises—I've got a whole shopping list of things.

HK: So this is from Baker?

DS: From Baker and from the Pentagon.

HK: So, not so, not.. .

DS: Why did he do it, you know, why did he do it? Last year I was a bum. This year I said look Jim, we're going to fight on the F-l5s. Israel doesn't want to fight, I said, but some people on it are going to come up on the floor of the Senate and the House and they're going to fight. If you'll do this, I think I can hold them back. But you've got to do it right away. They didn't want to fight. I said, "You don't want a fight before the election. It's going to hurt Bush. We don't want a fight before the election. We don't want to fight at all. Why can't we work something out?" So we cut a deal. You can't repeat this.

HK: You're right. But you met with Baker. . .

DS: Personally.

HK: Personally. Because you know, he's the one who cursed, who cursed the Jews.

DS: Of course, do you think I'm ever going to forgive him for that?

HK: Unbelievable. I said...

DS: Do you think I could ever forgive Bush for what he did September 12th a year ago? What he said about the Jews for lobbying in Washington?

HK: Do you think that Baker has a legitimate concern for the Jews? From what I hear, do you think he's anti-Semitic?

DS: I wouldn't go so far as to say that. He's a pragmatic businessman, he's a very tough lawyer. He does whatever it takes.

HK: And that's why.. .

DS: If we didn't have an election this year, you would get [unintelligible] from him.

Edited February 18, 2011 by bud

[scouterjim]

Indeedy. But those not around during those days (and also have a bone to pick with Israel) often use it as a talking point as to why the US shouldn't be friends with Israel.

I was around in those days. I have read the report by the ship's captain. He said they repeatedly radioed they were American, but the Israelis ignored it. They flew a large American flag. Again, ignored. Israel's excuse? "We thought they were Egyptians."

The US has never said, or done, anything about it.

[DogOnPorch]

I was around in those days. I have read the report by the ship's captain. He said they repeatedly radioed they were American, but the Israelis ignored it. They flew a large American flag. Again, ignored. Israel's excuse? "We thought they were Egyptians."

The US has never said, or done, anything about it.

Then you have a bone to pick with Israel.