Killings of newborn babies on the rise in Pakistan

[scribblet]

This is disturbing, infanticide happens because of adultery laws... tragic and hard to understand.

http://www.vancouversun.com/story_print.html?id=4128516&sponsor=

the conservative Muslim nation, where the birth of children outside of marriage is condemned and adultery is a crime punishable by death under strict interpretations of Islamic law, infanticide is a crime on the rise.

More than 1,000 infants - most of them girls - were killed or abandoned to die in Pakistan last year according to conservative estimates by the Edhi Foundation, a charity working to reverse the grim trend.

The infanticide figures are collected only from Pakistan's main cities, leaving out huge swathes of the largely rural nation, and the charity says that in December alone it found 40 dead babies left in garbage dumps and sewers.

The number of dead infants found last year - 1,210 - was up from 890 in 2008 and 999 in 2009, says the Edhi Foundation manager in Karachi, Anwar Kazmi.

[Wild Bill]

This is disturbing, infanticide happens because of adultery laws... tragic and hard to understand.

http://www.vancouversun.com/story_print.html?id=4128516&sponsor=

Those people are simply barbarians. It's high time the rest of the world started treating them as such.

[BubberMiley]

My heartfelt condolences to their friends and family.

[Bob]

Those people are simply barbarians. It's high time the rest of the world started treating them as such.

It's sick. No words can describe how disgusting this is.

[bush_cheney2004]

Meh....not so despicable given the state of abortion laws in the "civilized west".

[Bob]

Meh....not so despicable given the state of abortion laws in the "civilized west".

I don't see that as the same thing.

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't see that as the same thing.

Of course not, but why are they so different? In Canada, a full term fetus can be killed without restriction or legal consideration.

[Bob]

Of course not, but why are they so different? In Canada, a full term fetus can be killed without restriction or legal consideration.

I didn't know that. That's pretty messed up. I still don't know when a conception should be granted human rights, though. It's a question I can't answer.

[Wild Bill]

Of course not, but why are they so different? In Canada, a full term fetus can be killed without restriction or legal consideration.

Ok, you seized an opportunity to get an anti-abortion shot in. Fair game, I suppose. Still, what does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

Let's assume just for the sake of argument that your view on abortion in our country is 100% true and valid. Now, does that make the situation in Pakistan perfectly acceptable?

[Jack Weber]

Ok, you seized an opportunity to get an anti-abortion shot in. Fair game, I suppose. Still, what does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

Let's assume just for the sake of argument that your view on abortion in our country is 100% true and valid. Now, does that make the situation in Pakistan perfectly acceptable?

Of course it does'nt...

It just gives the Saskatoon Wheat Queen wannabe another opportunity to get one of her feeble digs in on Canada....

[Jake]

Those people are simply barbarians. It's high time the rest of the world started treating them as such.

Yes they are barbarians and need to be treated as such.

[eyeball]

Those people are simply barbarians. It's high time the rest of the world started treating them as such.

Yes they are barbarians and need to be treated as such.

So, what does this mean exactly? What would you have the world do? Outside support for or interference with the various regimes that have been running the place off and on for decades hasn't worked. You think maybe we should invade Pakistan and run it for them?

How about we simply let it be and leave them be for a change?

[Guest American Woman]

This is disturbing, infanticide happens because of adultery laws... tragic and hard to understand.

http://www.vancouversun.com/story_print.html?id=4128516&sponsor=

I have to question how often the infanticide is due to adultery laws vs. how often it's due to the sex of the baby, which appears to be the major factor. Looks as if female infanticide, which has been a problem there, is on the rise.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Those people are simply barbarians. It's high time the rest of the world started treating them as such.

Probably not the best term to use as historically the "barbarians" tend to kick the shit out of and then take over the so called "civilized" societies.

ETA They also tend not to be that barbaric just different and none of the group calling them barbarians ever learn much about them other than a few things that portray them in the worst possible light.

Edited January 30, 2011 by TrueMetis

[Wild Bill]

So, what does this mean exactly? What would you have the world do? Outside support for or interference with the various regimes that have been running the place off and on for decades hasn't worked. You think maybe we should invade Pakistan and run it for them?

How about we simply let it be and leave them be for a change?

I agree, only I would take it a step further.

There's an old word from that part of the world. 'Pariah'. That's where you completely ostracize someone. You don't talk to them, you don't interact with them - you act like you don't even see them!

If a country was declared a pariah country then we don't trade with them. We don't use them for cheap labour. We don't use their people to man call centres for our customer service needs.

We don't buy their vegetables. We don't give them our jobs. If their people are starving that's their problem, not ours.

Human rights should actually COUNT for something, not be something we ignore when it's expedient!

Sometimes we don't have as much choice as we'd like, as with many fundamentalist Islamic countries that supply us with oil. However, we are slowly putting our efforts into new technologies. There will come a day when we don't need to buy from some of those countries.

When that day comes, they can go to hell! The souls of those babies will rest easier...

Edited January 30, 2011 by Wild Bill

[Shwa]

Those people are simply barbarians. It's high time the rest of the world started treating them as such.

So there were 1200 infanticide deaths reported in a country of 170 million and all of a sudden "those people are simply barbarians?" WTF?!? So a tiny fraction of their population practices a heinous form of population control and thus we should turn our backs on their entire population. Let 'em starve even, the bastards!

Good God.

Let me guess, you also complain there are too many of them in the first place right?

Ok, well, fair is fair. Meet Kermit Gosnell:

'House of Horrors': The case, so far

Kermit Gosnell faces eight counts of murder, one related to the death of a patient and the others to those of seven viable babies who were delivered alive during late-term abortions and whose spines allegedly were severed with scissors by Gosnell or one of his staffers.

Here's an update of his case:

...

Besides facing third-degree murder charges in relation to the death of Karnamaya Mongar, 41, Gosnell is accused of first-degree murder in the seven baby deaths.

...

The children were "born alive, external to mother, breathing, crying, crawling in some cases," Williams said. Then, "the staff, at the direction of the doctor," or Gosnell himself, killed them by "stabbing scissors into the base of the neck of the child, and severing - a term he called 'snipping' - severing the spinal cord," the D.A. said.

Mind you, these infancticide figures were collected from one of the US' main cities, leaving out hugh swaths of the largely urban nation.

So let's see you drop everything you have to do with the USA - no products, no TV, no Internet web servers hosting your favourite message boards, because you know, they are a pariah nation. High time for you to treat them as such Wild Bill.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Shwa

[Guest American Woman]

I hope the day never comes when we just ignore such wrongs simply because "we don't need them." Killing babies/purposely leaving them to die, which is tantamount to torture, in this instance mostly simply because they are female, is not something the world should just ignore. I can't begin to understand why anyone would agree that we should "simply let it be and leave them alone."

[BubberMiley]

I hope the day never comes when we just ignore such wrongs simply because "we don't need them."

Fortunately we have online political forums so that will never happen.

[scribblet]

I have to question how often the infanticide is due to adultery laws vs. how often it's due to the sex of the baby, which appears to be the major factor. Looks as if female infanticide, which has been a problem there, is on the rise.

The article did say "People leave these children mostly because they think they are illegitimate, but they are as innocent ...' and infanticide is rarely prosecuted

In the conservative Muslim nation, where the birth of children outside of marriage is condemned and adultery is a crime punishable by death under strict interpretations of Islamic law, infanticide is a crime on the rise. ..

It did say more of them are females, and another child was found on the steps of a mosque having been stoned to death on the orders of an extremist imam who has since disappeared..

I don't understand how anyone, no matter what reason could resort to that, IMO it also speaks to the fanatascism of some clerics and how they hold sway over some people. Stoning a baby to death - that is more than barbaric, it's just incomprehensible.

[Guest American Woman]

It did say more of them are females, and another child was found on the steps of a mosque having been stoned to death on the orders of an extremist imam who has since disappeared..

I don't understand how anyone, no matter what reason could resort to that, IMO it also speaks to the fanatascism of some clerics and how they hold sway over some people. Stoning a baby to death - that is more than barbaric, it's just incomprehensible.

I know the article said that "people leave these children mostly because they think they are illegitimate," but I question that. For one thing, it would be extremely odd if the vast majority of illegitimate children just happened to be girls. From other sources I've read, "female infanticide" is a problem in Pakistan, so I can't help but wonder if the low value placed on girls is the underlying reason for the rise in infanticide there.

I agree with you, though, that no matter what the reason, it's incomprehensible. I also think the mindset that we should "just let them be" is pretty difficult to understand. The act, no matter what some may say, is barbaric.

Edited January 30, 2011 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

Fortunately we have online political forums so that will never happen.

I have the feeling that you're being sarcastic, but it's true. The more people are aware of it, the more people can help to correct the problem, and online political forums are one source of getting the word out.

[Wild Bill]

So there were 1200 infanticide deaths reported in a country of 170 million and all of a sudden "those people are simply barbarians?" WTF?!? So a tiny fraction of their population practices a heinous form of population control and thus we should turn our backs on their entire population. Let 'em starve even, the bastards!

Good God.

Let me guess, you also complain there are too many of them in the first place right?

Ok, well, fair is fair. Meet Kermit Gosnell:

'House of Horrors': The case, so far

Mind you, these infancticide figures were collected from one of the US' main cities, leaving out hugh swaths of the largely urban nation.

So let's see you drop everything you have to do with the USA - no products, no TV, no Internet web servers hosting your favourite message boards, because you know, they are a pariah nation. High time for you to treat them as such Wild Bill.

I shouldn't even bother but here goes!

You built the straw man, not me! First off, if there were 1200 REPORTED cases it's a certainty there were far more. Governments want those types of figures to be reported as low as possible.

However, that's not the main issue. Every country has problems. However, certain cultures seem to have values, or lack of them, that conflicts with our own. The question is not if you have a problem but what you try to do about it. If Pakistan shows little or no inclination to address such cases then other cultures and countries have a perfect right to place a value judgement on them.

If a country like Pakistan admitted they have such a problem AND they showed concrete and realistic attempts to address it then there would be no need to brand them 'pariah'.

Judging by their tepid, lukewarm attempts to deal with Islamic terrorists, along with these instances of infanticide, they show no signs of admitting such problems. Obviously, they don't think these ARE problems!

Treating them as a pariah nation would put substantial pressure on them to stop acting in such a manner. When and if they do begin to act in a more civilized manner BY OUR VALUES then we can remove the pariah designation!

The fact that not all their population may support such medieval attitudes is a red herring. We can only deal with them as a country and it is up to their government to address such concerns. Refusing to deal with them would put pressure on their government to change.

In the meantime, we would sit on our side of the wall and they on theirs. If they come over the wall then we would simply throw them back, without any need to be gentle about it.

Where is it written that we should deal with those we don't or can't respect? What gives a country the RIGHT to have everyone else deal with them?

At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, how far would Hitler have gotten if old Joe Kennedy and his friends had refused to sell him machinery and arms?

[scribblet]

I agree with you, though, that no matter what the reason, it's incomprehensible. I also think the mindset that we should "just let them be" is pretty difficult to understand. The act, no matter what some may say, is barbaric.

Right, and where is the U.N. on all of this, and the MSM for that matter which seems to be reluctant to spend much time on those issues.

[eyeball]

I agree, only I would take it a step further.

There's an old word from that part of the world. 'Pariah'. That's where you completely ostracize someone. You don't talk to them, you don't interact with them - you act like you don't even see them!

If a country was declared a pariah country then we don't trade with them. We don't use them for cheap labour. We don't use their people to man call centres for our customer service needs.

We don't buy their vegetables. We don't give them our jobs. If their people are starving that's their problem, not ours.

Human rights should actually COUNT for something, not be something we ignore when it's expedient!

Sometimes we don't have as much choice as we'd like, as with many fundamentalist Islamic countries that supply us with oil. However, we are slowly putting our efforts into new technologies. There will come a day when we don't need to buy from some of those countries.

When that day comes, they can go to hell! The souls of those babies will rest easier...

Bill, I've been suggesting the same thing for years and when I do I usually end up being compared to Pol Pot, Stalin or Hitler.

In any case to really bring the point home we should become the Pariah's and cut ourselves off not just from the barbarians but also from our 'civilized' allies who insist on diddling with them regardless of the harm they cause.

As I see it the evolution of human rights in places like Pakistan or Afghanistan is being retarded by this sort of near constant interference and until it stops there will be little to no progress.

It's not the barbarians who lack a Shining Beacon. They're not the real point of this excersize.

I doubt very much whether you'd be willing to take anywhere near enough of a step towards this goal.

Edited January 30, 2011 by eyeball

[eyeball]

I hope the day never comes when we just ignore such wrongs simply because "we don't need them." Killing babies/purposely leaving them to die, which is tantamount to torture, in this instance mostly simply because they are female, is not something the world should just ignore. I can't begin to understand why anyone would agree that we should "simply let it be and leave them alone."

I think that's because you can't or won't grasp the concept of arrested development due to interference or...diddling in a word.