future of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak

[dre]

Again, you're speaking about things you don't understand.

Let's assume you at least acknowledge that Israel has legitimate security concerns with respect to what and who goes into and out of Gaza. It is therefore easy to understand that Israel will do what it can to ensure that what and who goes into and out of Gaza will be managed.

What you don't read about in the newspaper is that Israel has to pay for this management. It's not cheap to station soldiers and continually update protocol based on updated intelligence and political considerations. If the permitted list of items that could enter Gaza was everything except weapons and dual-use materials, then there would be a massive influx of goods that we'd need to inspect. The larger the permitted list, the greater the costs incurred by us. Moreover, the greater the risk that we'll make a mistake and Jews will be killed. Every extra package that is permitted to enter is another inspection - which is another cost and another risk. That is why non-essentials aren't permitted to enter Gaza, because there's only so much money and manpower we can spend in order to ensure that little Mohammed and Fatima get their favorite breakfast cereals.

Unless you're going to volunteer to man that checkpoint and inspect packages, then stop complaining.

I won't even get into the concerns we have about what comes OUT of Gaza, let alone who can go in and under what circumstances we allow people to get out. All the conditions which regulate the movements of people and goods, of course, are constantly being attempted to be taken advantage of by people that want to kill us.

Just another one of those things you don't understand because CBC won't tell you.

Again, you're speaking about things you don't understand.

If the permitted list of items that could enter Gaza was everything except weapons and dual-use materials, then there would be a massive influx of goods that we'd need to inspect. The larger the permitted list, the greater the costs incurred by us. Moreover, the greater the risk that we'll make a mistake and Jews will be killed. Every extra package that is permitted to enter is another inspection - which is another cost and another risk.

All youre doing here as admitting that what I said was true, and using the abhorent excuse that it will cost too much money to allow basic necessities into Gaza. Sorry that excuse isnt gonna fly with anyone that places even a modicum of value on human life.

The fact is Israel wants to cause massive human suffering in Gaza to punishment the people there for electing Hamas, and with the hopes that those people will blame Hamas for their plight and elect someone different next time.

[dre]

I'll add one more thing - it's pathetic for people, organizations, and governments to criticize Israel for not permitting certain items into Gaza from our end without realizing what I mentioned above. Gaza is a burden to us, not just economically but in terms of lives and suffering. If you want more things to be permitted to enter Gaza from our end, give us the money we need to handle the increased burden in inspections.

Since you know nobody's going to do that, stop complaining.

Foreign countries give you more than enough money to pay for that. Youre one of the largest recipients of foreign aid in history.

[Moonlight Graham]

I also think it's obvious, but I want to know what you're getting at. What's obvious to me may not be obvious to you. What should Israel be concerned about, specifically? What kind of goods are we worried will get into Gaza, and why?

Again, what you're asking is obvious. Needs no explanation.

[Bob]

All youre doing here as admitting that what I said was true, and using the abhorent excuse that it will cost too much money to allow basic necessities into Gaza. Sorry that excuse isnt gonna fly with anyone that places even a modicum of value on human life.

The fact is Israel wants to cause massive human suffering in Gaza to punishment the people there for electing Hamas, and with the hopes that those people will blame Hamas for their plight and elect someone different next time.

Basic necessities are permitted into Gaza. Repeating a lie doesn't make it true. Reject the truth all you want, but the truth remains - the more we liberalize the restrictions on Gaza with respect to the crossing of good and persons in both direction, the greater the economic burden is placed on us. Not to mention the increased risk of mistakes being made and Jewish blood being spilled.

[Moonlight Graham]

...and of course have an impact on the West Bank and its people as well. What kind of regime is in Egypt certainly will impact what kind of goods, if any, are coming through those tunnels.

note: I meant Gaza, not the West bank.

[Bob]

note: I meant Gaza, not the West bank.

So what you're saying is - new leadership in Egypt could potentially support Hamas (militarily, politically, monetarily)? Basically, you're suggesting that there is a possibility that via regime change in Egypt, Israel might have to open a new front along what's been a quiet border since 1979?

[GostHacked]

Again, you're speaking about things you don't understand.

Let's assume you at least acknowledge that Israel has legitimate security concerns with respect to what and who goes into and out of Gaza. It is therefore easy to understand that Israel will do what it can to ensure that what and who goes into and out of Gaza will be managed.

What you don't read about in the newspaper is that Israel has to pay for this management.

Occupation comes at a cost, if you want your security, pay up.

And I am surprised you have no idea who and what the Muslim Brotherhood is all about. Since you seem to know about all the other groups against Israel and considered a terrorist group, the Muslim Brotherhood fronted by the man who trained Bin Laden. I mean, that is a huge oversight on your part.

If the permitted list of items that could enter Gaza was everything except weapons and dual-use materials, then there would be a massive influx of goods that we'd need to inspect. The larger the permitted list, the greater the costs incurred by us.

Again, suck it up, or stop the occupation. Security ain't cheap. A plane ticket back to Canada is!

Moreover, the greater the risk that we'll make a mistake and Jews will be killed. Every extra package that is permitted to enter is another inspection - which is another cost and another risk. That is why non-essentials aren't permitted to enter Gaza, because there's only so much money and manpower we can spend in order to ensure that little Mohammed and Fatima get their favorite breakfast cereals.

Seriously tired of the bolded statement. You are no longer a victim.

Unless you're going to volunteer to man that checkpoint and inspect packages, then stop complaining.

How much you gonna pay me?

I won't even get into the concerns we have about what comes OUT of Gaza, let alone who can go in and under what circumstances we allow people to get out. All the conditions which regulate the movements of people and goods, of course, are constantly being attempted to be taken advantage of by people that want to kill us.

Um, this place seriously needs a facepalm icon...

Just another one of those things you don't understand because CBC won't tell you.

CBC is just like any other state run TV station. Propaganda.

[Bob]

I'm not unfamiliar with the Muslim Brotherhood. I'd wager I know quite a bit more about the group's history, founders and figureheads, and spin-off groups than you. Given my focus on Israel, it was inevitable that I would learn about the Muslim Brotherhood.

Where in the world did you get the idea that I don't know about the Muslim Brotherhood?

As far as occupation goes, we're talking about Gaza, and Gaza isn't occupied. Try to spin it any way you want, but the nature of this neighborhood requires immense security. Israel wasn't given the geographical blessings that Canada received. The hypocrisy of dre's criticisms of Israeli reception of American military aid remain, despite you pretending they don't exist.

I also don't understand why you're denying the fact that the terrorists exploit loopholes. They've brought terrorists into Israel knowledge of our policies. For example, under certain circumstances Israel permits Arabs to enter Israel from Gaza for medical treatment - this has been exploited for terrorism. There are many other examples of the terrorists exploiting all existing systems in order to murder Jews. Why are you trying to deny this?

[Moonlight Graham]

Basically, you're suggesting that there is a possibility that via regime change in Egypt, Israel might have to open a new front along what's been a quiet border since 1979?

Exactly.

[jbg]

Israel and Egypt made peace because they were paid a lot of money to do so, and theyve been paid billions per year to keep that peace ever since then. If a new government takes over in Egypt they will be just as dependant on those payments as the old one was, and I dont see them risking cutting of that revenue stream by intentionally causing problems for Israel.

There IS no Israel Palestinian Peace Process BTW. Thats a western pipe dream, and various parties in the middle east only pretend to be interested in it.

The two of us are finally starting to agree.

[GostHacked]

The two of us are finally starting to agree.

I think many are now waking up to that fact. We've all been fooled.

[Bob]

Exactly.

Now we're getting somewhere. Let's go bit deeper, why would a potential regime be hostile to Israel? What do you suspect would be the motivation(s) behind a future rescinding of the Israel-Egypt peace treaty of 1979?

[JB Globe]

Ordinary Egyptians should thank George W. Bush for this turn of events in the Middle East - but no one in the Western MSM will acknowledge this evidence apparent to all.

Explain how Egyptians were inspired by what happened in Iraq. Show me examples of Egyptians looking at a deeply divided and most times ineffective governing coalition and thinking "I want that here" And explain how whatever magical thing Bush did in Iraq negated the fact that he turned a blind eye for 8 years towards Mubarak's continued oppression of his own people and rampant corruption.

if someone kept proclaiming non-violence while punching you in the gut, would you take them seriously? Would you listen to them?

Because it's pretty obvious to most of us that Egyptians were directly inspired by what happened in Tunisia.

[JB Globe]

I think if anything, Israel should be worried about loosing a moral monopoly it's held in the region . . .

Namely, it will no longer be a somewhat flawed democracy among dictatorships - and thus be the automatic recipient of all Western support and aid.

If Egyptians manage to transform and build their country into a growing democracy, the blank cheque given to Israel on many issues by the US and Canada will become increasingly more difficult to sustain as it won't be the only democracy in the region to support anymore. Because continuing to do so would look as hypocritical as putting an embargo on Cuba and then clamouring for trade with China.

We might see those governments stop treating Israel as a "special" ally, and instead treating it as we would any other ally - we support it, but not unconditionally.

Or they could just double down and discard the "supporting democracy" rational and just say that they are blindingly supporting Israel to an extreme no other country is deserving of for some other, even more absurd reason.

[bush_cheney2004]

We might see those governments stop treating Israel as a "special" ally, and instead treating it as we would any other ally - we support it, but not unconditionally.

...and just how does Canada materially support Israel? How many BILLIONS of dollars has Canada given to Israel, Egypt, Jordan, AND Palestine. What a joke!

Edited January 30, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Bob]

I think if anything, Israel should be worried about loosing a moral monopoly it's held in the region . . .

Namely, it will no longer be a somewhat flawed democracy among dictatorships - and thus be the automatic recipient of all Western support and aid.

If Egyptians manage to transform and build their country into a growing democracy, the blank cheque given to Israel on many issues by the US and Canada will become increasingly more difficult to sustain as it won't be the only democracy in the region to support anymore. Because continuing to do so would look as hypocritical as putting an embargo on Cuba and then clamouring for trade with China.

We might see those governments stop treating Israel as a "special" ally, and instead treating it as we would any other ally - we support it, but not unconditionally.

Or they could just double down and discard the "supporting democracy" rational and just say that they are blindingly supporting Israel to an extreme no other country is deserving of for some other, even more absurd reason.

There's one country that has a special relationship with Israel, and that's America. No plurals needed. And certainly no need for "we" coming from a Canadian like yourself.

The relationship between America and Israel runs deeper than simply through the affinity of one democracy to another. It's hardly as simple as you're making it out to be. We can talk about the special American-Israeli relationship and its components (cultural, strategic, economic) in another thread. That might be good for you, because you don't seem to know anything about it.

Additionally, he military aid from America isn't a blank check. Although American administrations have wrestled with Israeli administrations, including the current governments, American aid doesn't come without conditions. It's another complicated issue, and one you also don't seem to know much about.

Lastly, you seem to be suggesting that in the unlikely event of meaningful democratic reform in Egypt, that we will now see another state in the Middle East that can be eligible to receive aid under your simplistic "money to democracies in the Middle East" understanding of American foreign aid - as if Egypt hasn't already been receiving massive aid from the USA for many years.

[Esq]

link

The parliament's speaker will give an important annoucement shortly.

According to the Egyptian Constitution, Fathy Sorour, by virtue of his parliamentary position, is the one entitled to take over the presidency for an interim period in case of a sudden presidential vacancy.

mubarak milked it as much he wanted. he'll be on the first private jet with his millions to england. the question is, how will u.s. and israel handle this? u.s. shouldn't really care, but since this is israel's problem, they are forced to care.

What are 100,000 people in Cairo that is a day shopping.

As long as he maintains active military support and any attacks on government and state facilities are repulsed - really that is that. The upcoming election in egypt is another story though.

If they were armed with more than rocks it might be another story..

CAIRO POPULATION upwards of 7,786,640 (metropolitan area 20+ million

- Density 17,190/km2

It may seem like a lot of people but for Cairo it is notable but not exceptional. Some of the rioting is notable but it is hardly "civil war" level. I have no doubt mubarak could maintain control if there arn't more attacks.

It is stuff like this that is worrysome

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2011/01/30/VI2011013001729.html

Edited January 30, 2011 by Esq

[jbg]

If Egyptians manage to transform and build their country into a growing democracy....

If its and buts were candies and nuts we'd have a great Christmas.

[jbg]

The relationship between America and Israel runs deeper than simply through the affinity of one democracy to another. It's hardly as simple as you're making it out to be. We can talk about the special American-Israeli relationship and its components (cultural, strategic, economic) in another thread. That might be good for you, because you don't seem to know anything about it.

I am starting this post with quote from part of a post in the Egypt thread. Bob's right - it deserves its own thread (link).

[Jack Weber]

If its and buts were candies and nuts we'd have a great Christmas.

In your case...uh...Hannukah,right?

[jbg]

In your case...uh...Hannukah,right?

They're both solstice holidays so there is some connection. Chanukah though is not such a big deal in the Jewish liturgy.

[Bonam]

I think if anything, Israel should be worried about loosing a moral monopoly it's held in the region . . .

Namely, it will no longer be a somewhat flawed democracy among dictatorships - and thus be the automatic recipient of all Western support and aid.

It isn't the "automatic recipient of all Western support and aid". Egypt already receives significant aid from the US, in case you didn't know.

If Egyptians manage to transform and build their country into a growing democracy, the blank cheque given to Israel on many issues by the US and Canada will become increasingly more difficult to sustain as it won't be the only democracy in the region to support anymore. Because continuing to do so would look as hypocritical as putting an embargo on Cuba and then clamouring for trade with China.

You kind of defeat your argument there, eh? Cause the US does/did have an embargo on Cuba, and it does trade with China. Regardless, there are many possible outcomes for the Egyptian crisis, and the country transforming into a prosperous democracy is, I think, one of the less likely. And, if they do manage to become a real democracy (not an "Islamic Republic"), that will only benefit the region, including Israel. Israel has traditionally had good relations with the few nations in the area that have had secular democratic governments, such as Turkey.

We might see those governments stop treating Israel as a "special" ally, and instead treating it as we would any other ally - we support it, but not unconditionally.

Israel has no one's unconditional support. It receives plenty of criticism and pressure from the US, more than perhaps any of the US's NATO allies.

[dre]

It isn't the "automatic recipient of all Western support and aid". Egypt already receives significant aid from the US, in case you didn't know.

You kind of defeat your argument there, eh? Cause the US does/did have an embargo on Cuba, and it does trade with China. Regardless, there are many possible outcomes for the Egyptian crisis, and the country transforming into a prosperous democracy is, I think, one of the less likely. And, if they do manage to become a real democracy (not an "Islamic Republic"), that will only benefit the region, including Israel. Israel has traditionally had good relations with the few nations in the area that have had secular democratic governments, such as Turkey.

Israel has no one's unconditional support. It receives plenty of criticism and pressure from the US, more than perhaps any of the US's NATO allies.

Very muted criticism but some.

In any case support for Israel is a political fixture in the US. A politician running on ending aid to Israel would have about as much luck as French politician running on abolishing wine.

[bush_cheney2004]

In any case support for Israel is a political fixture in the US. A politician running on ending aid to Israel would have about as much luck as French politician running on abolishing wine.

Not so...see Rep. Dennis Kucinich. or Sen. Rand Paul.

[Rue]

Very muted criticism but some.

In any case support for Israel is a political fixture in the US. So is support of the notion that Israel holds the US captive and gets unfair preferential treatment.

You no doubt feel the criticism is muted but why? Is it because its muted or because you choose no to see it?

Tell me when you don't see the criticism of Israel in the U.S. is it because it really isn't there? You so sure?

You think Israel mind controls the US and has it simply doing what it wants? Golly gee never heard that before.

Really? Right. I know. The Military Industrial lobby which controls Israel as much as it does the US economy can you see it? Can you see the oil lobby? Why not? How did they magically disappear? Did they go poof the same way all the support for Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, the UAE and Kuwait did? Poof?

I love it. The military industrial and oil lobbies have nothing to do with US Middle East foreign policy-its just Israel that shapes it. No one else. Poof begone. Its those mind controlling Jews. They send a couple of Jews to congressional hill and presto, the entire country is captive.

Why sure. All Americans are idiots and controlled by the mystical powers of the bagel people.

Got news for you-its time you move past the bagel conspiracy theory and try examine who shapes US foreign policy and why.

Save the bagel people conspiracy theories for a UFO site. We are after all alien invaders some to suck the brains of Yanks.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Rue