The crisis in Egypt

[bush_cheney2004]

Please go fuck yourself.

Let's preserve the original for posterity.

[nicky10013]

Apparently it's just peachy for Canada et al to benefit from our economic and military relationships, all the while criticizing us for it. In other words, leave it to someone else to do what's perceived as the dirty work, eagerly benefit from it, and then point the holier-than-thou finger at them.

Nothing that has been said isn't true. A lot of the weapons the US government has sold Egypt are being used in the crackdown. Furthermore, I didn't bring it up to say what America has done is bad, but more because BC was being a dick. Yes some people may have a holier than thou attitude here, but him saying the Egyptians were lazy or cowards for not doing this sooner is pretty damn bad.

For the record, I don't have a problem with the US doing what it percieves to be in the best interest of itself, the region and general peace and stability. It's a complicated world so let's not handle issues with kid gloves anymore. Though some may disagree, sometimes that means standing next to people like Mubarak. At the current moment considering his cooperation with not only the US and Israel, Mubarak is the least bad option in Egypt. Furthermore, the very fact that we have countries on our side like Jordan and yes even Saudi Arabia and the UAE as active partners in combating terrorism.

Why is it so hard to say it, though? I watched a small clip of an interview with David Cameron done by Fareed Zakaria and he had no qualms in saying that Mubarak had been a great ally in the region.

[Scotty]

For those who don't already know, Egypt has a secular dictatorship, while Iran has an Islamic dictatorship.

EDIT - Egypt's dictatorship is quite a bit more secular than Iran's.

Until the Musim Brotherhood takes over.

[dre]

I don't know why he tries so hard to hide the obvious...it is what it is. And it predates Bush Derangement Syndrome by many years. Usually I get the "We don't hate Americans, just their government" routine, which is just foreplay for a lot of things they "hate" about Americans too. This is often followed by erroneous Mapleleaf flag and backpack stories.

Im not trying to hide anything. I just explained to you that this whole pretense is a falsehood that exists only inside your head.

Theres some anti-American sentiment in Canada, but theres less of it than anywhere else, and Canadians in fact have more favorable opinion of America than people in any other country. Most Canadians not only have a high opinion of Americans themselves, but also believe that the nation/institution of America is a force for good in the world.

Why dont you clowns go and troll some forums in Indonesia, or the United Kingdom if you want to confront anti-US sentiment. Or better yet... go and troll a class of grade 2 students that your attempts to surplant empirical evidence with your fallacious and tiresome appeals to your own authority and experience might actually work on them, because you wont find an educated adult on earth that will assign even slightest ammount of credibility to them.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nothing that has been said isn't true. A lot of the weapons the US government has sold Egypt are being used in the crackdown. Furthermore, I didn't bring it up to say what America has done is bad, but more because BC was being a dick. Yes some people may have a holier than thou attitude here, but him saying the Egyptians were lazy or cowards for not doing this sooner is pretty damn bad.

But "he" never said that...you and others put words in my mouth because you don't know the meaning of the word "pathetic". During the invasion of Iraq, Iraqis siad the same thing about their self inflicted state of affairs, as in "Now it has come to this".

BTW, many of those US "weapons" systems in Egypt have Canadian content.

[dre]

Apparently it's just peachy for Canada et al to benefit from our economic and military relationships, all the while criticizing us for it. In other words, leave it to someone else to do what's perceived as the dirty work, eagerly benefit from it, and then point the holier-than-thou finger at them.

[bush_cheney2004]

Im not trying to hide anything. I just explained to you that this whole pretense is a falsehood that exists only inside your head.

Well, I have a very big head...see my avatar.

Theres some anti-American sentiment in Canada, but theres less of it than anywhere else, and Canadians in fact have more favorable opinion of America than people in any other country. Most Canadians not only have a high opinion of Americans themselves, but also believe that the nation/institution of America is a force for good in the world.

So frickin' what....this is not an empirical discussion. You can try to parse it any way you want, but the basic premise still stands. It's not my fault you have anxiety about working in America while pissing on their carpet.

[Scotty]

Because other "oppressed" nations in the world have been able to cast off such governments. You've earned another DUH!

That's actually extremely rare. What normally happens is a band of revolutionaries arm and fight to overthrow the dictatorship, then they become the dictators. About the only time a "people's revolution" succeeds is when the government has absolutely no support, even from its own security forces.

[bush_cheney2004]

The worst anti-American sentiments comes from Quebec, partly because they are the most ignorant about American politics (lack of interest and/or language barrier and/or prejudice towards English)....

Perfect, as I have related before, my American business has to purposely route shipments to a Winnipeg proxy address before going on to customers in Quebec, so virulent are the anti-American feelings. We laugh all the way to bank.

Edited January 31, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

That's actually extremely rare. What normally happens is a band of revolutionaries arm and fight to overthrow the dictatorship, then they become the dictators. About the only time a "people's revolution" succeeds is when the government has absolutely no support, even from its own security forces.

Rare compared to what? Do you know what is happening in Sudan right now?

[nicky10013]

But "he" never said that...you and others put words in my mouth because you don't know the meaning of the word "pathetic". During the invasion of Iraq, Iraqis siad the same thing about their self inflicted state of affairs, as in "Now it has come to this".

BTW, many of those US "weapons" systems in Egypt have Canadian content.

I never said it was bad that we sold them weapons. Apparently you have the very same problem as me in being able to read. Except I actually know how to read because in my opinion the words pathetic and cowardly are completely interchangeable within the context which you wrote.

[Scotty]

Americans have fought a lot of tyranny, but also sponsored and enabled a lot of tyranny. It comes down to self interest, not anything else. Sometimes its in their self interest to remove an oppresive regime, sometimes its in their interests to empower, fund, and befriend one.

Generall speaking, it isn't a question of whether the United States or the West prefers to have a dictator in power as opposed to a democratic regime. It's a question of whether they'd rather have THIS dictator, or the dictator who would replace him if they failed to support him.

In Egypt's case, the thinking all along has been that if Mubarek was overthrown, whomever replaced him would be just as much a dictator, but far less likely to be pro-western.

[dre]

Well, I have a very big head...see my avatar.

So frickin' what....this is not an empirical discussion. You can try to parse it any way you want, but the basic premise still stands. It's not my fault you have anxiety about working in America while pissing on their carpet.

How is pointing out that Canadians have a favorable opinion of America and Americans pissing on their carpet? Repeatedly exposing you as a deluded clown is not an anti American activity.

[dre]

Generall speaking, it isn't a question of whether the United States or the West prefers to have a dictator in power as opposed to a democratic regime. It's a question of whether they'd rather have THIS dictator, or the dictator who would replace him if they failed to support him.

In Egypt's case, the thinking all along has been that if Mubarek was overthrown, whomever replaced him would be just as much a dictator, but far less likely to be pro-western.

Yup that was basically my point when I said it was a matter of self interest.

[Scotty]

Apparently it's just peachy for Canada et al to benefit from our economic and military relationships, all the while criticizing us for it. In other words, leave it to someone else to do what's perceived as the dirty work, eagerly benefit from it, and then point the holier-than-thou finger at them.

I don't honestly see why Canada benefits one way or the other from what happens in the middle east. WE don't need their oil, after all. The United States sticks its oar in there purely out of self-interest. It wants to maintain its own energy supplies, and it wants to ensure that those energy supplies flow to the west, as well, again, not because they're being nice, but because economic chaos in the West threatens American military and economic interests. The United States interferes so broadly simply because it was very broad economic interests at stake.

[nicky10013]

Generall speaking, it isn't a question of whether the United States or the West prefers to have a dictator in power as opposed to a democratic regime. It's a question of whether they'd rather have THIS dictator, or the dictator who would replace him if they failed to support him.

In Egypt's case, the thinking all along has been that if Mubarek was overthrown, whomever replaced him would be just as much a dictator, but far less likely to be pro-western.

Right on the money.

[jbg]

There you go again....if you need a friend, get a dog!

What you're making me do is point out your assinine activity in public. I prefer to avoid public humiliations, even of the terminally stupid.

[dre]

Perfect, as I have related before, my American business has to purposely route shipments to a Winnipeg proxy address before going on to customers in Quebec, so virulent are the anti-American feelings. We laugh all the way to bank.

Be honest BC... the only thing you deliver to Canada is horse shit, and you route it though MLW not winnipeg

Edited January 31, 2011 by dre

[Scotty]

Rare compared to what? Do you know what is happening in Sudan right now?

Yes, after a very long civil war there was an referendum on the Black Afican south separating form the Arab north, which succeded. That does not necessarily mean there won't be years of war in the future.

But it was nothing like what happened in Tunisia or Poland.

Nor do we yet know if whatever government takes over will be democratic for more than one election. Democracy has a very poor record in Africa. Just as it does among Arabs.

[Scotty]

Yup that was basically my point when I said it was a matter of self interest.

The distinction I wanted to make was that it wasn't a matter of propping up a nasty dictator to oppress the people. If the US or Western powers felt there was a legitimate democratic opposition who could take and hold power they would pressure the dictator to give over to them.

[Guest American Woman]

I don't honestly see why Canada benefits one way or the other from what happens in the middle east. WE don't need their oil, after all. The United States sticks its oar in there purely out of self-interest.

And you in turn do business with the U.S. purely out of self-interest; therefore when we prosper, Canada prospers. Canada willingly, happily does more business with us when we prosper, so it's advantageous to Canada to have us prosper -- so it seems a bit hypocritical to criticize the U.S. while in effect polishing your halo.

It wants to maintain its own energy supplies, and it wants to ensure that those energy supplies flow to the west, as well, again, not because they're being nice, but because economic chaos in the West threatens American military and economic interests. The United States interferes so broadly simply because it was very broad economic interests at stake.

And other countries are right there with us, in one way or another, to one extent or another. Which again has been my point. But even at that, the problems go far beyond "it's the U.S.'s (et al) fault" and it's mind boggling how some always come back to that. To here tell, the world would be Camelot but for the U.S.

[dre]

The main opposition leader is stepping up his rhetoric a bit.

"If he wants to save his skin, if he has an iota of patriotism, I would advise him to leave today and save the country," he told CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS."

Theres also signs that the military may not protect the president for much longer.

An eyewitness described ElBaradei's arrival at Tahrir Square as "chaotic," and it was unclear whether some members of the army were showing allegiance with the incumbent government or protesters. Some tanks had "Out with Mubarak" spray-painted on the sides and some soldiers waved the Egyptian flag, according to the same eyewitness.

[bush_cheney2004]

What you're making me do is point out your assinine activity in public. I prefer to avoid public humiliations, even of the terminally stupid.

Look, let's put this to rest once and for all. I do not need nor have I solicited "help" from you. I welcome your contribution here as a fellow American and patriot, but that does not mean I will kiss your ass. My persona here has been carefully crafted with purposeful intention...I want to be the Ugly American punching bag they desperately wish to hit.

Clearly I am able to hold my own, even if it is in a form that you and others find to be uncomfortable or even distasteful. If you dislike my posts, take Weber's advice and ignore Bush_Cheney2004.

My run here is nearly complete, if only because there is not much more to cover....we have done it all. The part of America that I espouse is real; it is not to be sugar coated. Going back several forums, I told these rubes that America was going to invade Iraq, and that GWB would be re-elected. They thought I was crazy back then too.

America does not have to live up to Canadian expectations.

[Scotty]

The main opposition leader is stepping up his rhetoric a bit.

"If he wants to save his skin, if he has an iota of patriotism, I would advise him to leave today and save the country," he told CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS."

Theres also signs that the military may not protect the president for much longer.

The best possible outcome I see here is for Mubarak to hang on, but for his government to begin, like South Korea did after similar mass demonstrations, to institute true democratic reforms - which, nevertheless, banned Islamist parties. I think that if Egypt's existing power structure is overthrown the most likely result will be that the best organized, best armed opposition - the Muslim Brotherhood - will be in chrage within a year. At that point the US will essentially have a second Iran to deal with, albiet a more populous one without oil.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Scotty

[bush_cheney2004]

...And other countries are right there with us, in one way or another, to one extent or another. Which again has been my point. But even at that, the problems go far beyond "it's the U.S.'s (et al) fault" and it's mind boggling how some always come back to that. To here tell, the world would be Camelot but for the U.S.

You are so right about this, as Canada has its paws all over oil services and mining contracts throughout the world. But they don't want to hear about that. They don't want to remember who was doing business with Myanmar dictators. Nope...please don't mention what happens to the locals in Chile or Peru (copper mines).

PM Martin had the unmitigated gall to beg President Bush for access to Iraqi oil services contracts AFTER all the dust settled in Iraq.