Jonsa Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 well that's quite generous of you to magically give one group's history in terrorism a pass while condemning another's. bob would be proud of you. And exactly how is that relevant to the situation today? Are you attempting to claim some kind of equivalency or justification for palestinian terrorist activities of today? My claim was that the jewish terrorist groups stopped their terrorist activitites and took up political activities. Arafat was supposed to do the same. Except he didn't. shouldn't the father label go to groups that started the whole thing in the region? like the the jewish terrorist group that a former israeli prime minister was a leader of? Why do I get the impression that you say this sneeringly? NO, Arafat was the father of international terrorism. As for starting the whole thing in the region, you should read a history book or two. It wasn't the jewish terrorists that started the conflict, they were born of the conflict. i never said arafat and palestinian terrorism shouldn't be in the equation. i just reminded you that you somehow believe jewish terrorism and many other acts that you fail to mention shouldn't really be part of the debate. like somehow, a group of people are above a moral line that we have created. Not at all. I am well aware of jewish terrorism (I'm not sure of what you mean by many other acts) and claim they are not relevant to the current debate because Israel became a reality, the terrorist groups disbanded and some of their leaders became politicians. Neither the conflict nor the debate is about moral equivalency. I do believe that palestinians have the right to resist occupation. its just that they have been plagued by bad leadership, stupid strategies, a string of pyhric and incredibly expensive "victories" and the development of a culture of hatred and victimhood that has them constantly lamenting the past instead of forging a future for themselves. no kidding. all those rockets and missiles pointed at him and all those sexy mossad agents with poison on their lips and he still made it pretty far. And that's not even mentioning all the lebanese christians who wanted him iced, nor all the jordanians that wanted him drawn and quartered, nor the tunisians, syrians and egyptians that hated him as well. It truly is remarkable that he survived as long as he did. Like I said - historic. oh yeah, answer me this:which one of these groups (PLO or likud), has vowed to never allow/accept a state for the other side? here is a clue and here is another. Yeah. I agree that likud doesn't want a palestinian state. I said that Arafat didn't stop supporting terrorism and despite the letter in 93, never altered the Covenant nor rescinded the 10 step plan. so what exactly is the point you're trying to make? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 NO, Arafat was the father of international terrorism. As for starting the whole thing in the region, you should read a history book or two. It wasn't the jewish terrorists that started the conflict, they were born of the conflict. And here's the actual father of the cause...a man ignored by the likes of bud & crew. A non-issue SS man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSUEx1cKUlg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouterjim Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 And here's the actual father of the cause...a man ignored by the likes of bud & crew. A non-issue SS man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSUEx1cKUlg So, the attack on the King David Hotel by Jewish terrorists was not actually terrorism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 So, the attack on the King David Hotel by Jewish terrorists was not actually terrorism? Israeli terrorists were a result of the Grand Mufti's pogroms and involvement in the Final Solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Its a long, painful and convoluted history. the nuances of the contemporary political decisions and compromises are lost in time. Witness the bitter arguments over the absence of the word "the" in UN 242. So true (link). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Jonsa, my response goes for you as well: Israeli terrorists were a result of the Grand Mufti's pogroms and involvement in the Final Solution. really? what about the fact that shamir, the israeli prime minister whose terrorist organization assassinated british envoy lord moyne, and swedish united nations peace mediator count folke-bernadotte in the 1940's? are you justifying israeli terrorism or are you against it? lets be clear on this. what about other israeli/jewish terrorist groups and organizations, like meir kahane and the jewish defense league? regarded as one of the most active terrorist organizations in the 80's? what about gush emunim underground? lets not forget israeli prime minister, menachem begin the leader of the irgun terrorist organization? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Yes, I am fully aware of the history of the region and of the terrorist campaigns conducted by the jews prior to the war of independence. that they were terrorists is no longer relevant to the equation since the rationale for their terror campaign was satisfied with independence and a democratic political process. Sure, ignore history, it's all irrelevant. Arafat OTOH, being the father of international terrorism figures most definitely in the equation since after all of it he became the founding President of the PA and maintained support for terrorist groups and never renounced the PLO ten steps. He will no doubt go down in history as one of the world's greatest survivors. Actually the CIA gets the credit for Father of International Terrorism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 really? what about the fact that shamir, the israeli prime minister whose terrorist organization assassinated british envoy lord moyne, and swedish united nations peace mediator count folke-bernadotte in the 1940's? are you justifying israeli terrorism or are you against it? lets be clear on this. what about other israeli/jewish terrorist groups and organizations, like meir kahane and the jewish defense league? regarded as one of the most active terrorist organizations in the 80's? what about gush emunim underground? lets not forget israeli prime minister, menachem begin the leader of the irgun terrorist organization? What a typical bud post...lol. The Mufti was a fact...get over it. I know it must be distasteful...or maybe not...to find your pet Palestinian cause was born out of a Nazi's desire to kill Jews. But, you're just going to have to live with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Sure, ignore history, it's all irrelevant. What part is he ignoring? Actually the CIA gets the credit for Father of International Terrorism. At least in your history books... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 What a typical bud post...lol. The Mufti was a fact...get over it. I know it must be distasteful...or maybe not...to find your pet Palestinian cause was born out of a Nazi's desire to kill Jews. But, you're just going to have to live with it. Are you suggesting the Islamofascists leaned their lesson well from their Pan-Arab Ba'Athist task masters??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 What part is he ignoring? At least in your history books... Erm... The CIA has been at the forefront of fomenting Fascist coups all over the world in the latter half of the 20th century.. Unless you believe that Salvador Allende actually committed "suicide"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Are you suggesting the Islamofascists leaned their lesson well from their Pan-Arab Ba'Athist task masters??? It's all one big happy soup. The Mufti even tried to get Iraq on the Axis side via a pro-Nazi revolt which luckily failed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Erm... The CIA has been at the forefront of fomenting Fascist coups all over the world in the latter half of the 20th century.. Unless you believe that Salvador Allende actually committed "suicide"... You're old enough to know that the CIA wasn't the only group engaged in skull-duggery around the globe. Tsk, tsk...lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 You're old enough to know that the CIA wasn't the only group engaged in skull-duggery around the globe. Tsk, tsk...lol. You're right!!! However,the Soviet Union never ever claimed it was a beacon of freedom and democracy... Ya' knew what you were getting with Moscow... Not the case with US foreign policy,however... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) Double post. Edited February 22, 2011 by jbg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 However,the Soviet Union never ever claimed it was a beacon of freedom and democracy...So being a beacon of freedom and democracy is now a suicide pact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 You're right!!! However,the Soviet Union never ever claimed it was a beacon of freedom and democracy... Ya' knew what you were getting with Moscow... Not the case with US foreign policy,however... Both you and I would prefer a world where the US is world policeman. The options other than America are grim... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 So being a beacon of freedom and democracy is now a suicide pact? Huh??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Both you and I would prefer a world where the US is world policeman. The options other than America are grim... I would prefer the US had been the freedom and democracy policeman they claimed they were instead of the opposite,as it related to State Department foreign policy... Alot less "blowback" several decades later... I agree,the crypto-Fascist Chinese are a far worse option... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 So being a beacon of freedom and democracy is now a suicide pact? Huh??? Meaning we should fight brutes with both hands tied behind our backs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Huh??? I believe he's saying that you do have to talk softly and carry a big stick if you're faced with the tasks the USA has on its plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Meaning we should fight brutes with both hands tied behind our backs? Ever since Viet-Nam... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 You're right!!! However,the Soviet Union never ever claimed it was a beacon of freedom and democracy... Ya' knew what you were getting with Moscow... Umm, of course the Soviet Union certainly claimed to be the beacon of freedom and equality. In their own eyes, of course, they were the good guys. Naturally, that was not how the Soviet Union was presented to you in the West. In the USSR, it was the US that was portrayed as the evil empire. Do you seriously not realize simple things like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Meaning we should fight brutes with both hands tied behind our backs? Brutes??? Allende,Lamumba,and,Mossadiq were brutes?? As opposed to Pinochet,Sese Seko,and,The Shah??? Nevermind the litany of other Fascist dictators the State Department propped up through the World Bank and the WACL... I realize this was done out of political expediency,however,how dis any of this forward the stated cause of feedom and democracy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Umm, of course the Soviet Union certainly claimed to be the beacon of freedom and equality. In their own eyes, of course, they were the good guys. Naturally, that was not how the Soviet Union was presented to you in the West. In the USSR, it was the US that was portrayed as the evil empire. Do you seriously not realize simple things like this? You seemed to forget the democracy part... Of course,you think busting unions legislative is an excercise in "freedom"... Simple is as simple does,chief... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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