Israel's government is turning into a settlement

[Jonsa]

i will tell you why it is.

because many of the pro-israeli supporters condemn the methods they themselves used in order to create their state. not only that, but jewish/israeli terrorism didn't stop after the 40's. as mentioned, one of the most active terrorist groups in the 80's was the jdl.

jewish/israeli terrorism has carried into 90's and into the new millennium. many acts committed by jewish settlers are considered terrorism. there has been numerous attacks by jewish settlers on palestinians and their properties.

I am not denying historical fact. You tell me that jewish terrorism in the 40's is relevant because pro Israelis ignore the fact that Israel's founding fathers were terrorists. I say it isn't relevant to the issues at hand.

Yes the JDL is a terrorist organization and a pretty crummy one at that. As for the nutty settlers I consider them to be criminals not terrorists. I find them to be even less relevant to the discussion.

terrorism by these groups have mostly been a reaction to the brutal occupation which you have a hard time discussing. what you're also failing to bring up into the equation is the constant violations of international law. aka, war crimes committed by the israeli military.

I don't mind discussing the brutality of the occupation. what would you like to discuss about it?

As for international law, I'm sorry but it might make for an academic discussion but there isn't a country on the planet that pays any attention to international law when their own self interests/security is at a stake. But maybe I'm wrong here too, so I'd appreciate it if you could give me a couple of examples where international law has trumped national self interest.

you have elected not to mention the 'major' reasons for the failure for their struggles. when you have the majority of the western governments (not the people, but the governments) politically, suffocating the palestinians plead for justice and standing silent when documented war crimes are being committed by the occupier, (like the gaza strip), then we should take that into account.

this is all relevant.

Your kidding right?

the major reasons for the palestinian's failure is western governments' inaction? What utter nonsense.

The "major reasons" all have to do with Palestinian leadership, Israel, and the Palestinian's arab brothers with a minor shout out to the United Nations. All the rest is so much political rhetoric that means absolutely nothing.

israel's inability to accept a fair and just palestinian state is the main problem here. everything else is an accessory.

If that's the main problem, then what is the rationale for their inability? How can this inability be overcome? What do the Israelis AND the palestinians have to do?

Please get back to me asap on this one.

all i asked when this topic started in this thread was for you to acknowledge the terrorism committed by jews and israelis. you chose to use arafat, who has been dead for many years and you chose to name him as the father of terrorism, yet you failed to mention the other side.

this is called misinformation.

don't play stupid. I have acknowledged the historical fact of jewish terrorism. I used him because he is the example of a terrorist thug who couldn't change his spots when thrust into a political position. And he is the father of international terrorism. And I've failed to mention a lot of things, like my opinion of your obtuseness, but hey there's only so much space.

first of all, you brought up the past and arafat, who you believe to be the father of terrorism. so why not stop changing what your message is. here is what you said:

Pro palestinians ignore that fact that the PLO was formed to destroy Israel, and that Arafat was a terrorist and gangster

perhaps you should try to focus a little more on what you're trying to debate and how you conveniently change your tune when i called you on your comment about the formation of PLO and the history of palestinian terrorism.

second, the occupation did not start today and in order to have a healthy and honest debate, all information should be taken into consideration. any information that has to do with the formation of israel is relevant to the topic.

My message isn't changing.

I guess you didn't quite get it so I'll repeat it a little louder.

THE PLO WAS FORMED TO DESTROY ISRAEL.

ARAFAT WAS A TERRORIST, A THUG AND A GANGSTER.

these are facts. how did you "call me out on them".

And no, I do not beleive that "any information" that has to do with the formation of Israel is relevant to the discussion today. Israel is an established and sovereign nation and nothing is going to change that. Moral equivalency is irrelevant to the discussion. We can go back and forth about the injustice of this and the criminality of that and those nasty palestinians and those bastard israelis and it doesn't advance the discussion one iota.

I acknowlege that situation isn't black and white. I acknowlege that both side are culpable and have done truly nasty things to each other. Now can we get on with some meaningful discussion about how the palestinians and the Israelis can actually move forward and create the conditions necessary for palestinian statehood?