Israel's government is turning into a settlement

[bud]

haaretz

read a piece in the haaretz which describes the current political atmosphere quite well:

"Keen to avoid elections at literally all costs, Netanyahu's actions in recent weeks - letting Avigdor Lieberman and Arab-hating rabbis run wild, humiliating the United States in the settlement freeze fiasco while exacerbating tensions with the Muslim world - mean that his government now meets the five essential criteria of a settlement:

It exists in order to obstruct progress toward Israeli-Palestinian peace.

It insists that it has nothing to do with the impasse in Israeli-Palestinian peace.

It serves the aims of the Orthodox Jewish minority, often at the direct expense of the needs and hopes of the Israeli majority, and the future of Israeli democracy.

Its actions anger and alienate Israel's allies and further inflame its enemies.

It will do anything – including at times of extreme risk to Israel, nothing – in order to avoid being dislodged."

[jbg]

Yawn.

Another hate Israel thread.

[bud]

Yawn.

Another hate Israel thread.

yawn all you want radical leftist lawyer, but this is the political situation in israel. the far right extremists have taken control over the direction of politics in israel. as a radical leftist, i figured you'd care.

[jbg]

yawn all you want radical leftist lawyer, but this is the political situation in israel. the far right extremists have taken control over the direction of politics in israel. as a radical leftist, i figured you'd care.

I happen to feel extremely strongly on that issue and donate every year, in varying amounts, to ARZA. Notwithstanding my agreement with you on the undesirability of far-right policies in Israel, I consider you to be a Jew-hater.

[bud]

I happen to feel extremely strongly on that issue and donate every year, in varying amounts, to ARZA. Notwithstanding my agreement with you on the undesirability of far-right policies in Israel, I consider you to be a Jew-hater.

why would you consider me a jew hater? i don't hate jews.

[M.Dancer]

why would you consider me a jew hater? i don't hate jews.

Of course not. You just hate jews who have an indentity, Jews who want a nation....jews who will not back down from a fight...basically, you hate uppity jews who demand and secure the exact same rights as every other nation....

ie...you hate 99.9% of them...

[Bob]

Hey bud,

What position are you in to describe the current political atmosphere in Israel? I find it quite funny that a Goy living in Canada is so arrogant as to offer his stamp of approval to an article from Haaretz. According to you, the article "describes the current political atmosphere (in Israel) quite well."

For those of you that don't know, Haaretz is a left-wing newspaper which isn't popular in Israel, but is quite popular with the anti-Semites who opposed Jewish independence in this world. They love utilizing anti-Zionist articles written by Jews to reinforce their hate-filled perspectives, as they think using Jewish-idiots insulates them from the accusations of anti-Semitism. What a joke. Stick to subjects others than Israel, bud. You're way out of your league.

[Bob]

Of course not. You just hate jews who have an indentity, Jews who want a nation....jews who will not back down from a fight...basically, you hate uppity jews who demand and secure the exact same rights as every other nation....

ie...you hate 99.9% of them...

Basically, Jews that don't want to live like he does. My impression is that people like M.Dancer are secure enough in their own identities that they don't hate me and other Jews like myself who wish to protect and continue development and evolution of our culture. Anti-Semites are often people who are so insecure that they hate us for not wanting to assimilate and become like them. That's one of the reasons of anti-Semitism - anti-Semites feel offended that we Jews don't want to throw away our histories, religion, and culture.

[bud]

Of course not. You just hate jews who have an indentity, Jews who want a nation....

wrong. i support the existence of the israeli state.

jews who will not back down from a fight...

fight for what? stealing land? i do not support anyone, jewish or not jewish, who tries to steal another person's land.

who basically, you hate uppity jews who demand and secure the exact same rights as every other nation....

i love rights, especially human rights. this is why i don't support expansionism and theft of another group's land. i don't care what religion they follow.

ie...you hate 99.9% of them...

you have a habit of lying and trying to defame people with those lies. you're a weak person.

[M.Dancer]

you have a habit of lying and trying to defame people with those lies. you're a weak person.

Speaking of lying and defamation...

...when are you going to admit that saying ISrael carpet bombed Lebanon was the product of an ignorant immature mind that hoped to defame israel?

[bud]

Speaking of lying and defamation...

...when are you going to admit that saying ISrael carpet bombed Lebanon was the product of an ignorant immature mind that hoped to defame israel?

image of israeli carpet bombing

Edited January 17, 2011 by bud

[jbg]

For those of you that don't know, Haaretz is a left-wing newspaper which isn't popular in Israel, but is quite popular with the anti-Semites who opposed Jewish independence in this world. They love utilizing anti-Zionist articles written by Jews to reinforce their hate-filled perspectives, as they think using Jewish-idiots insulates them from the accusations of anti-Semitism.

What Bud won't tell you is that Haaretz publishes freely in Israel and to my knowledge its writers and editors are not taking their lives or freedom into their hands.

I'm sure that the editor of a similar paper in the Muslim world would feel a bit light-headed.

[dre]

Of course not. You just hate jews who have an indentity, Jews who want a nation....jews who will not back down from a fight...basically, you hate uppity jews who demand and secure the exact same rights as every other nation....

ie...you hate 99.9% of them...

Seems like a red herring to me... the whole JEW thing.

[bud]

the typical cries of anti-semite and 'jew hater' is always expected by the vermin who can't handle any criticism of israel, even if it's by jews.

here are some facts:

A survey of the Israeli general public and Israeli settlers taken in early March shows three-fifths of the Israeli public (60%) support "dismantling most of the settlements in the territories as part of a peace agreement with the Palestinians." This is eleven points higher than the previous reading (49%) taken in December, 2009, and is the highest level recorded since 2005, during the debate over evacuating the Gaza Strip. Just one-third of the Israeli public (33%) opposes dismantling most settlements, including 13 percent very strongly opposed. This is the lowest level of strong opposition to dismantling settlements recorded by the Truman Institute for the 26 surveys in which this question has been asked since 2001.

WPO

Poll

an example of how the government is controlled by the extremist settlers. one false move against the settlements by bibi and his coalition will fall apart.

[jbg]

the typical cries of anti-semite and 'jew hater' is always expected by the vermin who can't handle any criticism of israel, even if it's by jews.

************

an example of how the government is controlled by the extremist settlers. one false move against the settlements by bibi and his coalition will fall apart.

Except no harm comes to the surrender peace advocates.

[bud]

Except no harm comes to the surrender peace advocates.

eh? first of all, this has nothing to do with harm to peace advocates and second, you're wrong. israel has started a campaign in trying to punish those who speak out against many of its actions. i'll get back to you on that in another thread.

talk to me about the 60% who prefer to see the settlements gone instead of the usual throwing around jew hater and anti-semite bs, like it holds any meaning any more.

you and the rest of the people here have killed the meaning of anti-semite. one single criticism of israel and all you can do is call the critic an anti-semite... even if they're jewish. so pathetic.

Edited January 18, 2011 by bud

[GostHacked]

you and the rest of the people here have killed the meaning of anti-semite.

Does that mean you will stop using the term then?

[bloodyminded]

Does that mean you will stop using the term then?

There's a big difference; Bud has not in any way diminished the meaning of the word. It's those who scream it, as a method of shutting down debate, who have done so.

People who insist upon promiscuously using the term to silence critics are themselves not especially concerned about anti-semitism. If they were, they wouldn't want the label to become vacuous and meaningless, which is what they're trying to do.

They couldn't give a shit about anti-semitism.

[M.Dancer]

image of israeli carpet bombing

Are you ready to admit that you haven't a clue what carpet bombing is?

Probably not given your congenital state of dishonesty

[GostHacked]

There's a big difference; Bud has not in any way diminished the meaning of the word. It's those who scream it, as a method of shutting down debate, who have done so.

People who insist upon promiscuously using the term to silence critics are themselves not especially concerned about anti-semitism. If they were, they wouldn't want the label to become vacuous and meaningless, which is what they're trying to do.

They couldn't give a shit about anti-semitism.

He seems to suffer from schizophrenia as well. Supporting and bashing Israel in the same post (in a few occasions), which is confusing to me.

[bloodyminded]

He seems to suffer from schizophrenia as well. Supporting and bashing Israel in the same post (in a few occasions), which is confusing to me.

No, that's sane. "Support" doesn't mean acceptance of all behaviours.

[Bob]

There's a big difference; Bud has not in any way diminished the meaning of the word. It's those who scream it, as a method of shutting down debate, who have done so.

People who insist upon promiscuously using the term to silence critics are themselves not especially concerned about anti-semitism. If they were, they wouldn't want the label to become vacuous and meaningless, which is what they're trying to do.

They couldn't give a shit about anti-semitism.

I certainly care about anti-Semitism. It's real and it affects me and those I care about. I don't use the term to "shut down debate", merely to call things as I see them. When I see double-standards and rejection of Jewish independence via statehood in Israel, to me that is anti-Semitism. Anti-Zionism is, at the end of the day, the same as anti-Semitism - as it condemns us to death as a nation, whether through assimilation or genocide.

Anyways, anti-Semitism isn't just some buzzword to me. It's very real, very dangerous, and frighteningly become more and more mainstream.

[bloodyminded]

I certainly care about anti-Semitism. It's real and it affects me and those I care about. I don't use the term to "shut down debate", merely to call things as I see them. When I see double-standards and rejection of Jewish independence via statehood in Israel, to me that is anti-Semitism. Anti-Zionism is, at the end of the day, the same as anti-Semitism - as it condemns us to death as a nation, whether through assimilation or genocide.

Anyways, anti-Semitism isn't just some buzzword to me. It's very real, very dangerous, and frighteningly become more and more mainstream.

Actually, you entered my mind after I wrote it, and so I can offer the caveat that your concern is certainly real enough. Overblown, in my opinion, but your point still stands.

However, the label is overused; I think more and more people are beginning to recognize this. I have been personally deemed an anti-semite, and for as little as making the remarks you and I were discussing earlier; that is, when I mention U.S. influence on Israel, some piker is going to contort him or herself, performing remarkable and convoluted mental gymnastics to assert that, ultimately, such a remark has a basis in age-old anti-semitism.

Why? Well, no need to explain it rationally. It is as it is, evidently.

If I say I think the 2008 attack on Gaza was unjustified, again, I am clearly a raving anti-semite.

Since I find the notion of my lefty anti-semitism to be both absurd and offensive, I will always call it out; and since it is not meant (in such cases) as a genuine critique, but as political correctness designed specifically to cow critics out of debate, I will go on the attack.

Hence, those who refer to me as anti-semites are--by dint of their own debating methodology--anti-semites. Jew-haters.

And they don't like that! Amazing. Because after all, no evidence of anti-semitism is required for the charge; the mere fact that it exists elsewhere is proof enough.

For simpletons and moral relativists, I mean.

I'm not talking about you, bob, just so that's perfectly clear.

Now, many people will dispute me on, for example, Gaza. (I'm perfectly cognizant of the arguments, and am not trying to revisit that debate here.) That's not only fine, but good; if everyone agreed about every military action, that would be proof of the success of propaganda, from whichever side has finally "won" that particular debate. But if people think I'm naive, that's all right; there are worse things than being naive; for example, deeming people anti-semites when they aren't anti-semites: that's worse than being naive. Morally grotesque, and cowardly. There's at least two or three on this board who engage in such masturbation regularly.

It stings me not because it's true--that's their sober and nuanced psychological theory--but because it isn't true, and is opposed to how I feel on a deep level. I'm not stupid, nor am I a child molester; and yet oddly I don't like being termed those things, either. Go figure.

When we've reached the point where Raul Hilberg--the historian personally responsible, more than anyone else, for the very existence of Holocaust Studies--is deemed a "self-hating Jew" simply because he agreed with a few points Norm Finkelstein has made (and because he made some casual criticisms of Elie Wiesel), then we've reached a pretty pass. We can't discuss a "new anti-semitism," and then proceed to pound round people into that square hole, willy-nilly. Each case, each voice, must be looked at individually.

And that the issue is sensitive is all the more reason to be cautious and judicious in assigning the label.

I've debated one incontrovertible anti-semite here on this board. (A right-winger, not a leftie.) But I didn't have to assume anything; I didn't have to read between the lines (in such cases, the reader's parsing skill is as important a part of the debate as is the alleged anti-semitism, as many people see things that aren't there, based on politicized biases). He said there was no Holocaust, he talked of banks and Hollywood and the Communists and the New World Order...he was an outright anti-semite.

Many anti-semites are not so crude, and are more difficult to spot, you might point out, and I agree.

But that's our problem, as accusers, not those being accused.

[Bob]

You need to understand that issues surrounding Israel are often perceived, rightly or wrongly, as existential for the Jewish people. When people criticize Cast Lead in a generic way, and I'm not talking about you because I don't know if I discussed that issue in here, it feels anti-Semitic. Why? Because Cast Lead was another example in a long history of conflict of Israel defending itself, and engaging in particularly dangerous activities that placed our soldiers and communities at risk in order to reduce potential harm to civilians. The Jewish people simply never get accustomed to the constant attacks on our legitimate rights to self-defense. I'm also not trying to revisit that debate, but I'm giving you a mainstream Jewish perspective. If I get attacked and defend myself, and you go an tell me I have no right to defend myself and that it's my fault I was attacked in the first place, then you'll be perceived as anti-Semitic by many Jews. That's reality.

One more thing, I think anti-Semitism certainly is NOT overblown. It's very real, and it's entrenched in the ideologies of our enemies. It motivates and incites those who kill us. Jews are at risk every day simply for being Jewish. I've been attacked several times for being Jewish... in Ottawa! My Jewish day-school was vandalized with swastikas, and some graves where my grandfather is buried were desecrated in a Jewish cemetery a few years back. You don't pay attention to anti-Semitism like we do, and you're certainly not affected by it. You can be forgiven for not being in touch with its manifestations and prevalence. Don't be so bold to tell us how big of a deal it is, though. There are six million dead Jews resulting from anti-Semitism - the threat of it and how seriously we take it is certainly not overblown.

I won't even get into how modern anti-Semitism is manifesting itself among Israel's enemies - primarily some components of the left and the Arab/Muslim causes they advocate for.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Bob

[bloodyminded]

You need to understand that issues surrounding Israel are often perceived, rightly or wrongly, as existential for the Jewish people. When people criticize Cast Lead in a generic way, and I'm not talking about you because I don't know if I discussed that issue in here, it feels anti-Semitic. Why? Because Cast Lead was another example in a long history of conflict of Israel defending itself, and engaging in particularly dangerous activities that placed our soldiers and communities at risk in order to reduce potential harm to civilians. The Jewish people simply never get accustomed to the constant attacks on our legitimate rights to self-defense. I'm also not trying to revisit that debate, but I'm giving you a mainstream Jewish perspective. If I get attacked and defend myself, and you go an tell me I have no right to defend myself and that it's my fault I was attacked in the first place, then you'll be perceived as anti-Semitic by many Jews. That's reality.

One more thing, I think anti-Semitism certainly is NOT overblown. It's very real, and it's entrenched in the ideologies of our enemies. It motivates and incites those who kill us. Jews are at risk every day simply for being Jewish. I've been attacked several times for being Jewish... in Ottawa! My Jewish day-school was vandalized with swastikas, and some graves where my grandfather is buried were desecrated in a Jewish cemetery a few years back. You don't pay attention to anti-Semitism like we do, and you're certainly not affected by it. You can be forgiven for not being in touch with its manifestations and prevalence. Don't be so bold to tell us how big of a deal it is, though. There are six million dead Jews resulting from anti-Semitism - the threat of it and how seriously we take it is certainly not overblown.

I won't even get into how modern anti-Semitism is manifesting itself among Israel's enemies - primarily some components of the left and the Arab/Muslim causes they advocate for.

I don't know why I bothered to construct a relatively careful argument, when you ignore nearly every point I make.

You do touch on it in the first part--although I wasn't talking about Israelis, but rather North American right-wingers who would drop Israel in a second if America did...because America, not Israel, is the seat of their ideological loyalty.

As to your remarks about the "mainstream Jewish perspective" being that "criticism of Cast Lead...feels like anti-semitism"...well, all I can say to that is screw that noise, Jack.

You're suggesting that a geopolitical entity--Israel--can commit to military action, and automatically all criticism of this is suspect, quite possibly bigoted against the Jewish people.

This is profoundly extremist, and morally corrupt.

And anyone who thinks this way is either a degenerate, or is so ignorant they'd be better off leaving such debates to people who don't decide all military action is just...including all possible future military action, which is demanded by your astonishing claim here, in the nature of fortune-telling.

I'm not suggesting the possibility that most critics of Israeli policy are not anti-semites, Bob: I'm telling you as an objective fact. It's not a contestable matter.

How do I know? Hell, because i have criticized Israel--including the murderous little military action known as "Cast Lead--and I am informing you that I am not an anti-semite.

That's not up for debate.

And to think that I'm the only critic who isn't an anti-semite, or just part of a tiny minority, is an irrational claim as well.

In other words, you're dead wrong. Period.

You should learn to live with uncomfotable facts.