Looks like the US is going home.

[dre]

I see Saddam no longer being in power as a good thing, and hope for the best regarding Iraq's emerging democracy. If you see something wrong with that view, address it, not everything under the sun.

I think the jury is still out on that. Well know in 10 or 20 years if the new government is worse or better than Saddam. Theres some potentially serious issues with it. The first is that its part democracy and party theocracy. The Iraqi constitution forbids the government from doing anything that conflicts with Islamic law. So its a sharia state partially.

Its also not in a very strong position to resist Iranian influence.

Its by nature less secular and less sovereign.

[bush_cheney2004]

Forget it, he made a stupid argument, and he knows it, and doesn't care.

No, I rebutted your argument with ironclad logic. You are irked and find it to be "stupid"...naturally.

I was talking about the majority of Iraqis, and the number of people suffering and killed.

...and you would still be wrong.

He was talking about American nationalist support for policy.

Nope...I was talking about the reality in Iraq since 1979.

Edited January 2, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

Everbody who wants Saddam Hussein raised from the dead and put back in power, please raise your internet forum hand.

Since Canada had no skin in the game, won't cost you nuthin'...again.

[pinko]

Canada cut a backroom deal with the USA to deploy to Afghanistan. I supported neither the Iraq or Afghanistan initiatives. Both were botched efforts.

[bloodyminded]

No, I rebutted your argument with ironclad logic. You are irked and find it to be "stupid"...naturally.

No, I just consider you stupid; no need to try to decode my observation.

...and you would still be wrong.

You believe this because you have no idea about the current situation in Iraq--which is a disaster--and how it compares to the situation before.

Your monumental ignorance is not my fault.

Nope...I was talking about the reality in Iraq since 1979.

But you think people's lives are better now. Which means you disagree with, for example, everybody who knows anything.

Again: your own fault.

It's that American terror swamping your senses again.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada cut a backroom deal with the USA to deploy to Afghanistan. I supported neither the Iraq or Afghanistan initiatives. Both were botched efforts.

Then is that a vote for Saddam? Yea or Nea?

[pinko]

If you are in touch with the dead I would like you to put me in touch with my deceased relatives from Austria. Once you do that I will answer the question. By the way once someone dies that person does not come back to the living.

[bush_cheney2004]

No, I just consider you stupid; no need to try to decode my observation.

There is nothing to decode from the person without a country.

You believe this because you have no idea about the current situation in Iraq--which is a disaster--and how it compares to the situation before.

Yes.... I believe it is better not to have other nations bombing you....best to leave it a home grown experience.

Your monumental ignorance is not my fault.

Irrelevant...your faults are already well documented here.

But you think people's lives are better now. Which means you disagree with, for example, everybody who knows anything.

Then everybody does not remember the Iran-Iraq War...especially you.

[Guest American Woman]

You believe this because you have no idea about the current situation in Iraq--which is a disaster--and how it compares to the situation before.

Sometimes things get worse before they get better. Had Saddam stayed in power, things wouldn't have gotten better. Now there a chance that they will. It's not just "the current situation," it's the future, also, and at least now there's a chance that things will be better.

Do you think it would be better if Saddam were still in power? And how do you think the majority of Iraqis would answer that question? I rather doubt if most of them are wishing he were still in power.

I'd rather be a free person in a free nation than living under the 'order' of a brutal dictatorship. I just don't see how people can argue that it would be better if Saddam were still in power, no matter how they feel about the U.S./the war.

[bush_cheney2004]

If you are in touch with the dead I would like you to put me in touch with my deceased relatives from Austria. Once you do that I will answer the question. By the way once someone dies that person does not come back to the living.

That you wish to dodge the question is understandable....but like you said there is a third Canadian option....kill Afghans instead!

[pinko]

It seems like a rather silly question considering Saddam is dead and has been for several years. Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

[bloodyminded]

Sometimes things get worse before they get better. Had Saddam stayed in power, things wouldn't have gotten better. Now there a chance that they will. It's not just "the current situation," it's the future, also, and at least now there's a chance that things will be better.

Yes, everyone should hope so.

Do you think it would be better if Saddam were still in power? And how do you think the majority of Iraqis would answer that question? I rather doubt if most of them are wishing he were still in power.

No, they don't tend to like Saddam, and they don't tend to like the United States. Both are rational responses.

I'd rather be a free person in a free nation than living under the 'order' of a brutal dictatorship. I just don't see how people can argue that it would be better if Saddam were still in power, no matter how they feel about the U.S./the war.

As you said, we'll see what happens. I'm not going to supplant reality with future speculation; the present is obviously as important as the future.

As things stand right now, they are worse than under Saddam.

Edited January 2, 2011 by bloodyminded

[pinko]

I see you American folks trying to rationalize the occupation of Iraq. You aren't doing a very good job.

[bush_cheney2004]

I see you American folks trying to rationalize the occupation of Iraq. You aren't doing a very good job.

We don't have to rationalize the occupation of Iraq....that always comes after an invasion. Your beloved UN said so!

[bush_cheney2004]

It seems like a rather silly question considering Saddam is dead and has been for several years. Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

Dodge x 2.

[Moonlight Graham]

Since Canada had no skin in the game, won't cost you nuthin'...again.

And we're quite proud of that. Thanks for reminding!

[pinko]

Yes. Bring the troops home.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes. Bring the troops home.

I agree....Iraq has gone much better!

[Guest American Woman]

....they don't tend to like Saddam, and they don't tend to like the United States. Both are rational responses.

No, they don't tend to like Saddam, and I don't blame them for not wanting American troops to stay, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to point out that they don't tend to like the United States either.

As you said, we'll see what happens. I'm not going to supplant reality with future speculation; the present is obviously as important as the future.

This is what I don't get. You're not going to supplant reality with future speculation even though the reality is that under Saddam things wouldn't have changed. For years. It's almost as if you're saying that a brutal dictator keeping order in any way is 'better' than an interim where things might be worse in order to strive for something better. Furthermore, you're making your judgement based on limited criteria. I don't see your judgement as taking in the total picture.

As things stand right now, they are worse than under Saddam.

That depends on what one bases their judgement on. If we take in all the criteria that one generally considers, then it's debatable. Freedom/democracy, the chance of a life free from tyranny, is worth a lot to a good many people.

[bloodyminded]

No, they don't tend to like Saddam, and I don't blame them for not wanting American troops to stay, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to point out that they don't tend to like the United States either.

I'm not sure I understand the complaint here.

This is what I don't get. You're not going to supplant reality with future speculation even though the reality is that under Saddam things wouldn't have changed. For years. It's almost as if you're saying that a brutal dictator keeping order in any way is 'better' than an interim where things might be worse in order to strive for something better.

First of all, it's not "almost as if" I'm saying anything of the sort. I am not especially optimistic--that doesn't mean I don't hope and wish for things to improve. Second, your premise seems flawed; are you suggesting things have to be the way they are now, so that they can get better?

Why, in God's name?

Furthermore, you're making your judgement based on limited criteria. I don't see your judgement as taking in the total picture.

The limited criteria I'm basing my views on come from my reading of the current situation in the country. I don't know what other criteria I could use.

That depends on what one bases their judgement on. If we take in all the criteria that one generally considers, then it's debatable. Freedom/democracy, the chance of a life free from tyranny, is worth a lot to a good many people.

These are the criteria I"m basing my judgement on: the amount of crime; the amount of torture, often by government and government-friendly forces; the terrible food, electrical and medical conditions; the sectarian violence, dropped specifically only because of ethnic cleansing of neighbourhoods; the refugee crisis, an incredible near-ommission by the media, still up around 2.5 million internal refugees, and a million or more outside of country; the rise in prostitution-as-desperation; the precarious situation for women, whose religious-misogynistic oppression has intensified profoundly....

And so on.

So, while your criteria are "freedom/democracy" (which is far from stable anyway), my criteria are death, refugees, drinking water, sewage, torture, murder, and so on.

Here's a sobering account:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17653