Michael Hardner Posted December 17, 2010 Report Posted December 17, 2010 Below is my do-it-yourself comparison of report cards for Canada's healthcare system (survey wait times). Basically it says whether the province met the target 75% of the time for this year, and last year. So y(n) means it MET target this year, but not last year. So this is your health system. Proud of it ? If so, why ? Because it's better than the US system ? If that's your benchmark for success, then you can pretty much guarantee that the system will deteriorate until it's just slightly better than that system. Meanwhile, here we have 15/40 or 37.5% of indexes BELOW the benchmark, which is already quite loose at 75% of a standard. How did we do last year ? The exact same. One thing has improved - we had 3 areas with ? last year, and this year we're down to 1. However, you can be sure that that ? will turn to an 'n'. Beyond the stats themselves, the fact that I had to cobble them together myself into this pathetic display shows that there's not enough demand for good performance statistics right now. And, in an eerie premonition of what may come, I believe that ER stats have now been declared RESTRICTED ACCESS. That's right - the government will now opt to not publish performance statistics for your system. But, it's better than the US right ? Right ? We'd better figure that out soon, because once the government stops publishing performance statistics, then stops reporting costs. (I realize that this table is pretty damned awful, however if somebody can tell me how to paste a table onto this site, please do so and I will happily oblige next time.) Note: Coronary Bypass times are missing for 2010 and Fracture Repair surgery wasn't in the 2009 table. Sources: http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/products/wait_times_tables_aib_e.pdf http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/products/wait_times_tables_2010_e.pdf This table answers the question: Did the province report 75% of patients receiving treatment withing Time target for 2010 ? (with 2009 performance in brackets) .......|Hip.Replacement|....Knee ....|...Cataract.....|....Cancer.....| .......|.....Surgery.........|..Surgery...|.....Surgery....|..Treatment..| .......|..within.26.wks..|wthn26.wk|(within.26.wks|within.4.wks| -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+. N.L....|........n(y).......|.........n(n).....|........y(n).......|........y(y).....| -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+. P.E.I..|........y(n).......|.........n(y).....|........y(n).......|........y(y).....| -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+. N.S....|........n(n)......|..........n(n).....|........n(y)......|........n(?).....| -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+. N.B....|........y(n)......|.........n(n)......|.......y(n).......|........y(y).....| -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+. Que...|........y(y).......|.........y(y).....|........?(?).......|.......y(y)......| -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+. Ont....|........y(y)......|..........y(y).....|........y(y).......|........y(y).....| -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+. Man...|........n(y)......|.........n(n).....|........y(y).......|........y(y).....| -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+. Sask..|........n(n)......|.........n(n).....|........y(y).......|........y(y).....| -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+. Alta...|........y(y).......|..........n(n).....|........n(n)......|.......n(?).....| -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+. B.C....|........y(y).......|..........y(n).....|........y(y)......|.......y(y).....| -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 17, 2010 Report Posted December 17, 2010 I appreciate your enthusiasm for not only pointing out the continuing folly in US comparisons, but the paucity in available data for Canada. As to your table insert question, try copying the table and pasting into your post as a code snippet (< >) from the menu....like this: AL BATTING AVERAGE AVG Josh Hamilton Josh Hamilton 1. Josh Hamilton, TEX .359 2. Miguel Cabrera, DET .328 3. Joe Mauer, MIN .327 4. Adrian Beltre, BOS .321 5. Robinson Cano, NYY .319 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted December 17, 2010 Author Report Posted December 17, 2010 (edited) I appreciate your enthusiasm for not only pointing out the continuing folly in US comparisons, but the paucity in available data for Canada. As to your table insert question, try copying the table and pasting into your post as a code snippet (< >) from the menu....like this: OOOOOO ! |Hip Replacement|Knee Replacemnt| Cataract | Cancer | | Surgery | Surgery | Surgery | Treatment | |(within 26 wks)|(within 26 wks)|(within 26 wks)|(within 4 wks) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ N L | n(y) | n(n) | y(n) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ P E I | y(n) | n(y) | y(n) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ N S | n(n) | n(n) | n(y) | n(?) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ N B | y(n) | n(n) | y(n) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ Que | y(y) | y(y) | ?(?) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ Ont | y(y) | y(y) | y(y) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ Man | n(y) | n(n) | y(y) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ Sask | n(n) | n(n) | y(y) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ Alta | y(y) | n(n) | n(n) | n(?) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ B C | y(y) | y(n) | y(y) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ B_C you have helped Canada edify itself, just as American William Van Horne did 130 some years ago... be proud... Edited December 17, 2010 by Michael Hardner Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
wyly Posted December 17, 2010 Report Posted December 17, 2010 OOOOOO ! |Hip Replacement|Knee Replacemnt| Cataract | Cancer | | Surgery | Surgery | Surgery | Treatment | |(within 26 wks)|(within 26 wks)|(within 26 wks)|(within 4 wks) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ N L | n(y) | n(n) | y(n) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ P E I | y(n) | n(y) | y(n) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ N S | n(n) | n(n) | n(y) | n(?) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ N B | y(n) | n(n) | y(n) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ Que | y(y) | y(y) | ?(?) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ Ont | y(y) | y(y) | y(y) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ Man | n(y) | n(n) | y(y) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ Sask | n(n) | n(n) | y(y) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ Alta | y(y) | n(n) | n(n) | n(?) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ B C | y(y) | y(n) | y(y) | y(y) | -------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+ B_C you have helped Canada edify itself, just as American William Van Horne did 130 some years ago... be proud... here is an issue I have with that table...it includes elective surgery, it does not reveal the urgency of various procedures, nor does it list immediate high priority procedures...it's apples, oranges and bananas, we can't/shouldn't be lumping all these procedures together.... hips and knee replacements are bogus really, patients are at fault for their own wait times, as I've posted before I was told I need a new knee but when to do it is up to me, i was told this 5 years ago I could have had this procedure 4 or 5 times if I said yes 5 years ago...but I like every other canadian will wait until I can't walk anymore before agree to go under the knife then complain about the wait time, it's my own fault...these knee and hip issues are long term injuries they didn't suddenly become a problem, they were problem years before the patient decided to have the surgery... cancer treatments have different rates of progress, most prostrate cancers are very slow growing a few months wait will make little or no difference in outcome...of course it's understandable when someone hears the C-word from their MD they go into a panic and want instant help but instant treatment isn't always required... the serious cases requiring quick surgical intervention are prioritized, my brother had intestinal cancer and moved to the head of the surgical list as he was judged to be in immediate danger, time from diagnosis to surgery was 3 days...but I don't see a category for emergency surgical procedures on your chart... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Michael Hardner Posted December 17, 2010 Author Report Posted December 17, 2010 here is an issue I have with that table...it includes elective surgery, it does not reveal the urgency of various procedures, nor does it list immediate high priority procedures...it's apples, oranges and bananas, we can't/shouldn't be lumping all these procedures together.... Elective ? Hmmm. Well, it's not like plastic surgery - it's essential surgery. In any case, this is what CIHI uses to measure summary statistics, so you're out of luck, unless you want to look deeper. hips and knee replacements are bogus really, patients are at fault for their own wait times, as I've posted before I was told I need a new knee but when to do it is up to me, i was told this 5 years ago I could have had this procedure 4 or 5 times if I said yes 5 years ago...but I like every other canadian will wait until I can't walk anymore before agree to go under the knife then complain about the wait time, it's my own fault...these knee and hip issues are long term injuries they didn't suddenly become a problem, they were problem years before the patient decided to have the surgery... cancer treatments have different rates of progress, most prostrate cancers are very slow growing a few months wait will make little or no difference in outcome...of course it's understandable when someone hears the C-word from their MD they go into a panic and want instant help but instant treatment isn't always required... the serious cases requiring quick surgical intervention are prioritized, my brother had intestinal cancer and moved to the head of the surgical list as he was judged to be in immediate danger, time from diagnosis to surgery was 3 days...but I don't see a category for emergency surgical procedures on your chart... Nonetheless, the standards are set up to be met, and they're not being met in a significant number of cases. The situation isn't really improving that much, there are still gaps in reporting and costs ? Well, who knows. The biggest red flag I see right now is that CIHI is NOT releasing ER stats to the public now. You can see where that is going. I have an outstanding call to CIHI around that, and I wonder if they'll even call me back. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
wyly Posted December 17, 2010 Report Posted December 17, 2010 Elective ? Hmmm. Well, it's not like plastic surgery - it's essential surgery. In any case, this is what CIHI uses to measure summary statistics, so you're out of luck, unless you want to look deeper. no it's still elective...here are the definitions-Elective surgery is surgery that is scheduled in advance because it does not involve a medical emergency. Semi-elective surgery is a surgery that must be done to preserve the patient's life, but does not need to be performed immediately. By contrast, an urgent surgery is one that can wait until the patient is medically stable, but should generally be done today or tomorrow, and an emergency surgery is one that must be performed without delay; the patient has no choice other than immediate surgery, if he does not want to risk permanent disability or death. Most surgeries are elective. Nonetheless, the standards are set up to be met, and they're not being met in a significant number of cases. The situation isn't really improving that much, there are still gaps in reporting and costs ? Well, who knows.standards to be improved on but let's apply the proper level of importance to each...the opponents of public healthcare will drag out and highlight the procedures with the longest wait times but those are procedures have already been given a low priority by the system as non life threatening...the opponents don't want to highlight the essential emergency services that have the shortest if any wait times...The biggest red flag I see right now is that CIHI is NOT releasing ER stats to the public now. You can see where that is going. I have an outstanding call to CIHI around that, and I wonder if they'll even call me back.I agree, but the public employees fear of losing their jobs won't release those unless the political overlords give permission, your request has to go up the chain of command to someone who has to be very careful what they say...it's extremely damaging politically and career ending should someone say something they shouldn't... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Michael Hardner Posted December 17, 2010 Author Report Posted December 17, 2010 standards to be improved on but let's apply the proper level of importance to each...the opponents of public healthcare will drag out and highlight the procedures with the longest wait times but those are procedures have already been given a low priority by the system as non life threatening...the opponents don't want to highlight the essential emergency services that have the shortest if any wait times... And the proponents of public healthcare will refuse to apply any pressure at all to improve the system or acknowledge that it even needs improvement. The system should be improving, not staying the same. We can't highlight emergency services because the powers that be have stopped publishing that information. Doesn't that worry you ? I agree, but the public employees fear of losing their jobs won't release those unless the political overlords give permission, your request has to go up the chain of command to someone who has to be very careful what they say...it's extremely damaging politically and career ending should someone say something they shouldn't... People who care about public healthcare need to start making some noise, as every day that goes by without improvement is a day where we lose people to the call for private healthcare. That is just a fact. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
wyly Posted December 17, 2010 Report Posted December 17, 2010 (edited) And the proponents of public healthcare will refuse to apply any pressure at all to improve the system or acknowledge that it even needs improvement. The system should be improving, not staying the same. that doesn't make sense I've never met anyone in the system that doesn't want it work better, why would those in the system would want it to fail... We can't highlight emergency services because the powers that be have stopped publishing that information.Doesn't that worry you ? of course it does but it's not the those within the system who are preventing the info from being released, as told you earlier about an Alberta government MLA who was kicked out of the party for speaking out on the issue of ER wait times...public employees have the same fear, management can be terminated at any time...if you're in a management position and have been told to not to release info you do as you're told or there's no xmas...don't blame those within the healthcare system for the problems caused by self serving politicians...People who care about public healthcare need to start making some noise, as every day that goes by without improvement is a day where we lose people to the call for private healthcare. That is just a fact.noise doesn't help those in charge just pay attention doing just enough, saying all the right buzz words until the noise dies down then it's back to the usual...the only way to change/improve/fix the health system is to punish the offenders at the polls, something the slack jawed yokels here in alberta still haven't figured out after 40-50-60? years... Edited December 17, 2010 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Michael Hardner Posted December 17, 2010 Author Report Posted December 17, 2010 that doesn't make sense I've never met anyone in the system that doesn't want it work better, why would those in the system would want it to fail... Those who are calling for improvements tend to be calling for privatization and so the argument goes. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
wyly Posted December 18, 2010 Report Posted December 18, 2010 Those who are calling for improvements tend to be calling for privatization and so the argument goes. that's a generalization...some certainly are for personal gain, others are because they've been convinced by the pro privatization lobby that the public system is no good, but most(another generalization) truly want to improve the public system... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
dre Posted December 18, 2010 Report Posted December 18, 2010 that's a generalization...some certainly are for personal gain, others are because they've been convinced by the pro privatization lobby that the public system is no good, but most(another generalization) truly want to improve the public system... Those who are calling for improvements tend to be calling for privatization and so the argument goes. Only stupid people are focusing on private vs public being defining factors. People with a brain realize that healthcare costs are rising for BOTH sectors. Public VS Private isnt the problem. Closed market VS Open market is the problem. All those procedures on your waiting list? Theres THOUSANDS of qualified clinics and hospitals around the world dying to perform them, for a fraction of what the Canadian medical industry charges medicare. But Medicare normally wont dispurse money unless you have your procedure done in canada. That gives a handfull of medical associations a virtual monopoly. If we ran the textiles industry like we run healthcare your shoes would cost you $500 and thats not an exaggeration. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted December 18, 2010 Report Posted December 18, 2010 that's a generalization...some certainly are for personal gain, others are because they've been convinced by the pro privatization lobby that the public system is no good, but most(another generalization) truly want to improve the public system... From what I can tell most people are consumed with debating a totally irrelevant sidebar... public VS private, instead of acknowledging the pressures on prices have nothing to do with and that both private and public systems are facing basically the same cost inflation. Thats the hilarious thing... how could anyone be so stupid? The US is talking about public UHC and Canadians with public UHC are talking about private healthcare But we face the exact same upward pressures on cost and they have not a THING to do with public vs private. They have to do the prices in a protected market VS the prices in a global market. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
wyly Posted December 18, 2010 Report Posted December 18, 2010 All those procedures on your waiting list? Theres THOUSANDS of qualified clinics and hospitals around the world dying to perform them, for a fraction of what the Canadian medical industry charges medicare. But Medicare normally wont dispurse money unless you have your procedure done in canada. That gives a handfull of medical associations a virtual monopoly.are those thousands of clinics around the world qualified?...the vast majority of MDs in those clinics aren't even qualified to work in canada...who pays for the follow up treatment when those patients return from abroad with complications from sub standard treatment received...even many specialist MDs in the US are not qualified to same level as canadian MDs...you stepped into the "monopoly trap, MDs are protecting their turf, the MDs and drug companies are in cahoots conspiracy"...as an MD specialist friend told me he has way more work than he can ever handle, his waiting list is very, very long take away half his patients and he'd still have a long waiting list...if there is one thing he's not worried about is losing patients to other MDs it'll have zero effect on his income... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
dre Posted December 18, 2010 Report Posted December 18, 2010 are those thousands of clinics around the world qualified?...the vast majority of MDs in those clinics aren't even qualified to work in canada...who pays for the follow up treatment when those patients return from abroad with complications from sub standard treatment received...even many specialist MDs in the US are not qualified to same level as canadian MDs... you stepped into the "monopoly trap, MDs are protecting their turf, the MDs and drug companies are in cahoots conspiracy"...as an MD specialist friend told me he has way more work than he can ever handle, his waiting list is very, very long take away half his patients and he'd still have a long waiting list...if there is one thing he's not worried about is losing patients to other MDs it'll have zero effect on his income... are those thousands of clinics around the world qualified?...the vast majority of MDs in those clinics aren't even qualified to work in canada...who pays for the follow up treatment when those patients return from abroad with complications from sub standard treatment received...even many specialist MDs in the US are not qualified to same level as canadian MDs... Yes the hospitals are JCI accredited (thats the same body that accredits hospitals here) and studies have shown that patient outcomes at these facilities are comparable with ours. But what Im talking about is voluntary. If patients want to jump the queue and save our system money they should be free to do so. monopoly trap, MDs are protecting their turf, the MDs and drug companies are in cahoots conspiracy They objectively ARE in cahoots. What do you think a medical association is? They dont even try to hide it. Various medical associations have lobbied for overly ownerous certification standards to protect themselves from competition, and keep their wages high. Saying that doctors are not in "cahoots" with each other would be like saying unionized auto workers are not in "cahoots" with each other. Of course they are... thats the whole point of professional organizations. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted December 18, 2010 Report Posted December 18, 2010 as an MD specialist friend told me he has way more work than he can ever handle, his waiting list is very, very long take away half his patients and he'd still have a long waiting list...if there is one thing he's not worried about is losing patients to other MDs it'll have zero effect on his income Well then he needs to take a basic course in economics. If the market was opened up the market value of the procedures he performed would go down, and so would his income. Just like the income of workers in American shoe factories went down once the US textiles industry had to compete with foreigners. Have said that your friend is quite safe. Even after competition cuts the price of procedures in half hell still make pretty good coin, but him and his association wont be able to price gouge. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
wyly Posted December 18, 2010 Report Posted December 18, 2010 Well then he needs to take a basic course in economics. If the market was opened up the market value of the procedures he performed would go down, and so would his income. Just like the income of workers in American shoe factories went down once the US textiles industry had to compete with foreigners. Have said that your friend is quite safe. Even after competition cuts the price of procedures in half hell still make pretty good coin, but him and his association wont be able to price gouge. I suggest you better investigate how MDs are paid, procedures here are less expensive then they are in the private world in the US...our health costs per person are about half of what they are in the US...and price gouging isn't possible as neither the MDs or their associations set the billing rates they can charge...and yet we now have reports of US MDs moving to canada and making more cash than they can in the US... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
dre Posted December 18, 2010 Report Posted December 18, 2010 I suggest you better investigate how MDs are paid, procedures here are less expensive then they are in the private world in the US...our health costs per person are about half of what they are in the US... and price gouging isn't possible as neither the MDs or their associations set the billing rates they can charge...and yet we now have reports of US MDs moving to canada and making more cash than they can in the US... and price gouging isn't possible as neither the MDs or their associations set the billing rates they can charge Yes they do. The size of the fees collected by doctors is determined by their provincial medical association negotiating with their provincial government. They act exactly like a union, and work to drive up salaries for their members. They also lobby for all kinds of regional restrictions on who can do what, and overly ownerous certifications. An interesting example of this is radiology. This illustrates the issue quite nicely because a radiology scan can easily be sent electronically to be read by a radiologist in any country in the world. They were able to close the door on that competition by tweaking the certification process. In the US theyve got it down to a science... in many cases it isnt even legal to send a radiology scan to be read by a doctor in another city... even another hospital! Never mind another country. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
wyly Posted December 19, 2010 Report Posted December 19, 2010 An interesting example of this is radiology. This illustrates the issue quite nicely because a radiology scan can easily be sent electronically to be read by a radiologist in any country in the world. They were able to close the door on that competition by tweaking the certification process. In the US theyve got it down to a science... in many cases it isnt even legal to send a radiology scan to be read by a doctor in another city... even another hospital! Never mind another country. all MDs are not the same nor are all radiologists, the certification process is extremely important...the US has very loose guidelines for specialists that do not match ours, the quality of our MDs is 2nd to none...you risk you life trusting a scan to someone you don't know is even qualified to read a scan in the US that is exactly the case, you have no idea if the radiologist is certified in canada he/she is absolutely...if you want to put your life in the hands of an american MD who hasn't passed his exams go ahead I stick with my certified canadian MD... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 19, 2010 Report Posted December 19, 2010 (edited) all MDs are not the same nor are all radiologists, the certification process is extremely important...the US has very loose guidelines for specialists that do not match ours, the quality of our MDs is 2nd to none... Yea...that's why when some Canadian lives are on the line they head for the Mayo Clinics...like PM Chretien and family: According to access-to-information documents obtained by the Canadian Alliance, on Feb. 8, 1999, Chretien and two aides flew from Vancouver to Minnesota, home of the Mayo Clinic. According to air force flight logs, they flew back to Ottawa that afternoon with Chretien's daughter. And on Dec. 11 of the same year, Chretien went back to the clinic, this time just with his wife and his aide. you risk you life trusting a scan to someone you don't know is even qualified to read a scan in the US that is exactly the case, you have no idea if the radiologist is certified in canada he/she is absolutely...if you want to put your life in the hands of an american MD who hasn't passed his exams go ahead I stick with my certified canadian MD... LOL! Saudi princes and their families do not beat a bath to Canadian MDs...what a crock. Breast Cancer Screening Mistakes Edited December 19, 2010 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted December 20, 2010 Report Posted December 20, 2010 all MDs are not the same nor are all radiologists, the certification process is extremely important...the US has very loose guidelines for specialists that do not match ours, the quality of our MDs is 2nd to none...you risk you life trusting a scan to someone you don't know is even qualified to read a scan in the US that is exactly the case, you have no idea if the radiologist is certified in canada he/she is absolutely...if you want to put your life in the hands of an american MD who hasn't passed his exams go ahead I stick with my certified canadian MD... the quality of our MDs is 2nd to none...you risk you life trusting a scan to someone you don't know is even qualified to read a scan in the US that is exactly the case, you have no idea if the radiologist is certified in canada he/she is absolutely Yes thats the convention wisdom, but its mostly wrong. A look at the data shows that patient outcomes would be comparable whether radiology scans were read by a doctor in a JCI accredited facility in India, or one in Vancouver. The main difference is cost. The indian radiologist makes 20 thousand per year, and the Canadian one makes 350 thousand. The cost of surgery in India, Thailand or South Africa can be one-tenth of what it is in the United States or Western Europe, and sometimes even less. A heart-valve replacement that would cost $200,000 or more in the US, for example, goes for $10,000 in India--and that includes round-trip airfare and a brief vacation package. Similarly, a metal-free dental bridge worth $5,500 in the US costs $500 in India, a knee replacement in Thailand with six days of physical therapy costs about one-fifth of what it would in the States, and Lasik eye surgery worth $3,700 in the US is available in many other countries for only $730. Cosmetic surgery savings are even greater: A full facelift that would cost $20,000 in the US runs about $1,250 in South Africa. People are starting get wise to this massive scam, and millions of people have fled North American and Western European markets to escape the massive pricegouging thats gone on. And the industry is growing at an astronomical rate, and people are learning that the quality of care in accredited foreign hospitals is very close to ours, and the typical western view that if you leave the west for care youll be treated in a grass hut by a guy with a bone through his nose. Our healthcare system is spiraling out of control because the government that runs it only buys medical services and products in one of the very most expensive markets in the world. We should build on accreditation bodies like the JCI, so that consumers have real metrics on patient outcomes in foreign facilities, and then we should offer a 50% cash endowment to anyone that saves our system some money. If the Canadian government is going to pay 100 000 for a procedure, and Im willing to have that procedure done in a market where it costs 15 000 then I should be able to keep the money I saved our system. 42 000, and the system has still saved 42 000 and the pressure on it as been reduced. As soon as this starts to happen on any scale prices will start to come down here at home as well. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
TimG Posted December 20, 2010 Report Posted December 20, 2010 (edited) Our healthcare system is spiraling out of control because the government that runs it only buys medical services and products in one of the very most expensive markets in the world.You ignore the detail that foreign providers do not have to deal with the risk of lawsuits. In the US liability insurance alone can cost 100K/year/doctor. On top of that there are all of the procedures that are done to protect against possible lawsuits. The lawsuit effect is not as large in Canada but it is still much higher than in India.The other factor is Indian hospitals don't have to pay their support staff union rates. It is a lot easier to provide good service cheap if you can hire nurses for <10K/year. I don't suppose you include "overpaid" nurses in your rant againt over priced Canadian hosipitals. If the Canadian government is going to pay 100 000 for a procedure, and Im willing to have that procedure done in a market where it costs 15 000 then I should be able to keep the money I saved our system. 42 000, and the system has still saved 42 000 and the pressure on it as been reduced.Only if you sign a waiver that relinquishes your right to sue Canadian doctors and promise to pay for any complications that result from the foreign operation. Edited December 20, 2010 by TimG Quote
August1991 Posted December 20, 2010 Report Posted December 20, 2010 (edited) Below is my do-it-yourself comparison of report cards for Canada's healthcare system (survey wait times).Basically it says whether the province met the target 75% of the time for this year, and last year. So y(n) means it MET target this year, but not last year. Michael, are you insane?I thought your do-it-yourself comparison would involve a survey of people's opinions. Instead, you present complicated bafflegab based on bureaucratic statistics. ---- My colleague at work wants to have a regular check up. She does not have a family doctor. She asked about contacting a CLSC. I advised her to go to a private clinic and pay $300. Canada's health system is now Soviet for regular treatment. What is a Soviet system? "Contacts, who you know, bureaucratic rules, long lines." My advice: be friendly to a unionised nurse working in a hospital who knows the system. (Heck, marry one.) IOW, our critical care system will soon become Soviet. You'll need a good "contact". (God, even this slang bugs me. Soviet systems are filled with such slang.) Edited December 20, 2010 by August1991 Quote
Michael Hardner Posted December 20, 2010 Author Report Posted December 20, 2010 Michael, are you insane? I thought your do-it-yourself comparison would involve a survey of people's opinions. Instead, you present complicated bafflegab based on bureaucratic statistics. Surely less baffling than comparing Cabaret to a food court, choir but who am I to say, I suppose. If you find it too hard to understand, there's no reason you can't bow out of the thread. My colleague at work wants to have a regular check up. She does not have a family doctor. She asked about contacting a CLSC. I advised her to go to a private clinic and pay $300. Canada's health system is now Soviet for regular treatment. What is a Soviet system? "Contacts, who you know, bureaucratic rules, long lines." My advice: be friendly to a unionised nurse working in a hospital who knows the system. (Heck, marry one.) Right. That's kind of a Canadian response, I guess, to sit around and hope the government fixes something - and hopefully find a sneaky way around the problem. I find that attitude pathetic, I must say. IOW, our critical care system will soon become Soviet. You'll need a good "contact". (God, even this slang bugs me. Soviet systems are filled with such slang.) Right. And reading a chart or talking about it bothers you though. Do the minimum, man. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
dre Posted December 20, 2010 Report Posted December 20, 2010 You ignore the detail that foreign providers do not have to deal with the risk of lawsuits. In the US liability insurance alone can cost 100K/year/doctor. On top of that there are all of the procedures that are done to protect against possible lawsuits. The lawsuit effect is not as large in Canada but it is still much higher than in India. The other factor is Indian hospitals don't have to pay their support staff union rates. It is a lot easier to provide good service cheap if you can hire nurses for <10K/year. I don't suppose you include "overpaid" nurses in your rant againt over priced Canadian hosipitals. Only if you sign a waiver that relinquishes your right to sue Canadian doctors and promise to pay for any complications that result from the foreign operation. The other factor is Indian hospitals don't have to pay their support staff union rates. It is a lot easier to provide good service cheap if you can hire nurses for <10K/year. I don't suppose you include "overpaid" nurses in your rant againt over priced Canadian hosipitals. I absolutely do... and its not just nurses and doctors, its every single person involved in the system at every step of the way, and all the other costs as well. From purchasing the land and getting permits in the first place, to having the hospital designed, all the way though to contruction of the facility and then staffing it. We just arent competitive at ANY of these things. Only if you sign a waiver that relinquishes your right to sue Canadian doctors and promise to pay for any complications that result from the foreign operation. Hardly. That sort of follow up, and post-op care will be the Canadian medical industries niche along with emergency care, and theyll be damn glad to have it when all is said and done. This sort of "service sector" stuff, along with front desk stuff will be the stuff that doesnt get offshored. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
TimG Posted December 20, 2010 Report Posted December 20, 2010 (edited) I absolutely do... and its not just nurses and doctors, its every single person involved in the system at every step of the way, and all the other costs as well.I think you missed the point about nurses at 10K/year. There may be room to cut costs but they will NEVER get that low because we don't have a massive pool of labour that will work for pennies a day. You also ignored the issue of lawsuits and regulations. The right to sue a doctor comes at a price. Are you willing to give that right up in order to get cheaper healthcare? Edited December 20, 2010 by TimG Quote
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