A Stronger Canadian Military?

[bush_cheney2004]

...When you get right down to it, most wars are fought over access to resources and control of trade. In a word, money. Including the wars which formed Canada and the US. Other than religious wars, few are motivated solely by the desire to dominate other humans.

Right....a generation of Canadians (and Americans) have grown up thinking that it's all about peacekeeping and human rights.

[wyly]

What I think - what does it do? Canada is a major spender - like 13th in the world - meanwhile its population ranks 36th. It is the 2nd largest country in the world. Russia ranks 5th. NATO allies France and the UK rank 3rd and 4th while China ranks 2nd. The USA spends more than anyone else apparently and has the 2nd largest military after China, in terms of overall military personnel and equipment capacities.

Canada is rated somewhere north of 20 in power rating by Globalfirepower.com (23rd actually) But it is outspending 10 other countries on that list.. lets take a look - it is bizare even Taiwan has a higher rating than Canada... yet with only a few billion dollars - what is this? Even Greece and Sweden could apparently out do Canada. Canada last year spent twice as much as Greece and Sweden --- whoa what is going on here.

the USA is on the road to bankruptcy due to it's ridiculous military spending, piling up debt year after year just isn't sustainable it will crash just as any homeowner that overspends, eventually reality hits...historically countries have always demobilized between conflicts failure to do so cripples the economy, throwing billions upon billions at an entire sector of the population that produces no revenue is ruinous to any economy, the military is the ultimate welfare case/money pit...

I am not confident in the forces ability to respond adequettely in the event of actual war not kitty picking on have not states. Canada has been a tag alonger and as a middle power (#23 is pretty high up) but really what is Canada fighting over? What type of actual defence for exerting sovereignty is needed.

are we in some sort of macho dick measuring contest, mine is bigger than yours? who cares if we're 23rd or 53rd or that Greece or Cayman Islands are ahead of us in the rankings this isn't an olympic event....the only threat we have lies south of us and we have no hope of defending ourselves from them in the unlikely event should it happen...

1. Private Militias and Private security companies (mercenaries and private militias) - we need more in Canada - we need to empower the public - we need private militias with supplimentary support roles if there is anyone - not only does this reduce the reserve force budget but it potentially allows for more firearms training and practice on peoples own time. Hey they may be ineffective but atleast they are there and armed. (I favour social credits for various social programs including militia involvement (militias to receive have to meet some performance criteria and a cerain level of involvement - with audits of performance and honesty of reporting ex. covert surveillance etc..)

private militias? ...insanity!

2. More peace officer training this is not direct military power but it will assist in a time of emergency - I'm not talking about hiring cops I'm talking about people who can help maintain social order even if they are unarmed but give them easier access to firearms - like sherrifs but not connected to the politics of police forces or military command. Something that can also assist intelligence - but not like csis - a backup but not a force.

amatuer cops with guns?..no thanks

3. Equipment self sustainance INSIDE CANADA - we need to build our own equipment - we need to have a supply chain if the US gets bombed for instance. Canada should be self sovereign not a statlite dependant on US support - in Chaos happened in the US canada might need to depend on itself and that model is increasing leading up to the collapse of the US social system in 2040 - it takes 10 to 20 years to implement a working defence policy we already only have 10 to 20 years to plan for things like that. I don't think the current defence outlook adequately address the future security situation.

if any country were capable of bombing the US do you actually believe we could do better in defending ourselves than the US?...if the US can be crippled we wouldn't last another fifteen minutes on our own...a war that can inflict damage on that magnitude on the USA will be over very quickly, a week or two tops...there will be no need build any equipment or have the capacity to do so for a war that's already ended...

4. Technology issue - the US owns massives amounts of technology and canada needs to address their own position in defence procurement - it needs to support more development it needs to promote its engineers it needs to train them within the forces - and by this offering labs and equipment for militaries to equip and train themselves with what they make - not what is on the table from other states. This needn't be cost prohibitive, there should be some funds set aside for " approved military projects from within the forces to build equipment they require for force engagemnet, not simply logistics processing for operations. We need a self adaptive military. We need to revive the militia - every able bodied willing male to be part of and help defend the nation - not as part of our force deployment or reserve forces but as part of the militia - to provide for peace and order of Canada not to fight wars and shoot people.

waste of cash, far less expensive to share development cost with other countries...existing companies can bid to develop parts, bombardier could do airframes or engine development...

militias aren't needed we have a reserve force, there is no need to be able to defend a nation we have no hope of defending from any imaginary enemy we don't have...

The point here is that our wars are not with nations we have limited contact with - they are with countries who don't like us - not because we want to kill them, but because they want to kill US - part of that force projection is in diplomatic activity -

there was a time no one wanted to kill us, but that was before we joined in aggressive actions...conflict situations don't develop in a vacuum there is always a reason for aggression... 911 wasn't directed at us and it wasn't a random attack those behind it were pissed at the USA for it's biased foreign policies...for such a event to occur was inevitable, it was only a matter of time before the global busy body got a bloody nose...interfering in other countries politics is playing fire and you'll eventually get burned...not interfering with other peoples affairs, by being a fair and willing arbiter of their disputes and no one will hate you but they will respect you...we need nothing more than a civil defense force(reserves & coast guard) and a small highly efficient professional military...

[Argus]

the USA is on the road to bankruptcy due to it's ridiculous military spending,

Due to bad government which keeps promising tax cuts while refusing to cut the pork out of its budgets, due to government bought and paid for by special interest groups. Not due to the military. The US kept half a million men at war in Vietnam for years without any economic problems. But it had saner tax policies.

[wyly]

Hitlers plan was always expansion to the East. Lebensraum, Ukrainian wheat, Caucasus oil, etc. Doesn't really matter what he wanted them for, he was prepared to take them by force.

He didn't want a war in the West, at least not until after he had dealt with Russia. He just miscalculated in believing Britain and France would roll over when he invaded Poland, just as they had over Czechoslovakia.

When you get right down to it, most wars are fought over access to resources and control of trade. In a word, money. Including the wars which formed Canada and the US. Other than religious wars, few are motivated solely by the desire to dominate other humans.

ultimately you can track every conflict back to money, someone has something the other guys wanted, even religious wars have their financial rewards...but in a global economy where we sell anything to anybody that isn't an issue...if it happens again it will fought over food and water Edited October 27, 2010 by wyly

[bush_cheney2004]

the USA is on the road to bankruptcy due to it's ridiculous military spending, piling up debt year after year just isn't sustainable it will crash just as any homeowner that overspends,

Wrong...defense budgets in the USA are discretionary spending. Social programs cost more and are not discretionary.

if any country were capable of bombing the US do you actually believe we could do better in defending ourselves than the US?...

What if it's the US bombing Canada?

waste of cash, far less expensive to share development cost with other countries...existing companies can bid to develop parts, bombardier could do airframes or engine development...

See F-35 JSF program....Canada continues to bicker over such procurements, including rotary winged aircraft.

there was a time no one wanted to kill us, but that was before we joined in aggressive actions...conflict situations don't develop in a vacuum there is always a reason for aggression... 911 wasn't directed at us and it wasn't a random attack those behind it were pissed at the USA for it's biased foreign policies...

Canada is a founding member of NATO....might want to read that.

[fellowtraveller]

With the new purchase of F-35s, the question of increased Military power comes in mind.

That is a completely bogus premise.

The F-35s are a replacement for an aging generation of aircraft, which were a replacement for a previous generation.

How does that constitute an increase in military power?

[Argus]

What I think - what does it do? Canada is a major spender - like 13th in the world - meanwhile its population ranks 36th. It is the 2nd largest country in the world. Russia ranks 5th. NATO allies France and the UK rank 3rd and 4th while China ranks 2nd. The USA spends more than anyone else apparently and has the 2nd largest military after China, in terms of overall military personnel and equipment capacities.

You Can't simply use money as a determiner of who is committing the most resources to their military. The vast majority of the Canadian defense budget is spent on salaries/benefits, not equipment. Our military are very well paid and have very good benefits. We pay our privates more than most countries pay their generals - a lot more in many cases.

[Saipan]

there was a time no one wanted to kill us, but that was before we joined in aggressive actions...

Helping Britain?

there is always a reason for aggression...

Yeah, the friggin Jews wanted to conquer Germany

911 wasn't directed at us

It was directed at all nations that were in the building. Same as if they attacked UN building.

those behind it were pissed at the USA for it's biased foreign policies...

What kind of "foreign policies" against Saudi Arabia do USA have?

for such a event to occur was inevitable, it was only a matter of time before the global busy body got a bloody nose...

So the workers in WTC are busy bodies? Following that logic it's only question of time before the twin towers in Kuala Lumpur are going down.

But I think it would be more efficient to bomb Mecca and Medina. What do you think?

interfering in other countries politics is playing fire and you'll eventually get burned...

So when we will be burning China out of Tibet?

we need nothing more than a civil defense force(reserves & coast guard) and a small highly efficient professional military...

So why does China have the largest military on the planet? Half the 1.3 billion population has military training for two years.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Saipan

[Wilber]

ultimately you can track every conflict back to money, someone has something the other guys wanted, even religious wars have their financial rewards...but in a global economy where we sell anything to anybody that isn't an issue...if it happens again it will fought over food and water

You speak as if a global economy is a new thing. Countries have traded with each other for thousands of years and fought over contolling trade and resources for just as long. There are plenty of strategic materials other than food and water. Japan entered WW2 because trade embargos resulting from her invasion of China threatened to strangle her economy. Saying we have no need to defend ourselves because we will sell to anyone is also saying we will sell our principles to anyone who has the power to take what they want. Because we will have no choice. What if they don't want to buy and just decide to take. What are you going to do about it?

Last I looked Canada had plenty of food and water. 20% of the worlds fresh water and 1/2% of the population. No worries.

[Wilber]

That is a completely bogus premise.

The F-35s are a replacement for an aging generation of aircraft, which were a replacement for a previous generation.

How does that constitute an increase in military power?

Of course it isn't. It is just a case of trying to maintain the status quo as other nations upgrade their equipment. Just like anything else, the higher quality you buy now, the longer it will be before you have to replace it. For a nation that is known for hanging on to its equipment until it rusts out or in in danger of falling apart, that is an important consideration.

[wyly]

You speak as if a global economy is a new thing. Countries have traded with each other for thousands of years and fought over contolling trade and resources for just as long. There are plenty of strategic materials other than food and water. Japan entered WW2 because trade embargos resulting from her invasion of China threatened to strangle her economy. Saying we have no need to defend ourselves because we will sell to anyone is also saying we will sell our principles to anyone who has the power to take what they want. Because we will have no choice. What if they don't want to buy and just decide to take. What are you going to do about it?

Japan was following the lead of other imperial powers, UK, France, Germany, USA, stealing other countries resources to fuel their economies...the USA blocked Japan's imperial desires and the war in the pacific was the result...

but there is a different morality taking hold the imperialism of the past is no longer socially acceptable behaviour... corporations more and more freely cross borders to due business there is no need to go to war to do business... the economies of nations are becoming so intertwined it's becoming impossible to seperate them, damage another countries economy you will damage your own as well...

Last I looked Canada had plenty of food and water. 20% of the worlds fresh water and 1/2% of the population. No worries

we'll see how that goes with climate change, we can expect food production to go down and our population goes up...water supply will also go down, in Alberta we are already restricting water consumption and our population is still growing, our neighbour to the south wants more with their growing population how long do you think those request for water become demands? having 20% the worlds fresh water is meaningless if you can't use it, we can't drain the lakes and rivers...

[fellowtraveller]

there was a time no one wanted to kill us, but that was before we joined in aggressive actions...

Things were kind of quiet from 1867 to the Boer war........other than those pesky Metis at Batoche.....

Otherwise, Canada has had an unbroken string of strong alliances and participation in wars where plenty of people wanted to kill us.

So, there was no 'before'.

[wyly]

So why does China have the largest military on the planet? Half the 1.3 billion population has military training for two years.

do you ever think before you post? China has no conscription...

[M.Dancer]

do you ever think before you post? China has no conscription...

Take your own advice...why pray tell would China need conscription? Why the need for the largest armed forces in the world? Who wants to invade them?

[Wilber]

Japan was following the lead of other imperial powers, UK, France, Germany, USA, stealing other countries resources to fuel their economies...the USA blocked Japan's imperial desires and the war in the pacific was the result...

but there is a different morality taking hold the imperialism of the past is no longer socially acceptable behaviour... corporations more and more freely cross borders to due business there is no need to go to war to do business... the economies of nations are becoming so intertwined it's becoming impossible to seperate them, damage another countries economy you will damage your own as well...

How do you block anyones imperial desires if you have no power to do so? Ultimately it was US military power that stopped the Japanese.

Wars have almost always damaged economies in the short run but that has never stopped them from happening. The War of 1812 was very unpopular with North Eastern US because it strangled their trade. They called it Mr. Madison's war. Didn't stop it from happening. Both Gulf wars had a negative impact on the worlds economy. Didn't stop them from happening.

we'll see how that goes with climate change, we can expect food production to go down and our population goes up...water supply will also go down, in Alberta we are already restricting water consumption and our population is still growing, our neighbour to the south wants more with their growing population how long do you think those request for water become demands? having 20% the worlds fresh water is meaningless if you can't use it, we can't drain the lakes and rivers...

We can't but some other country that doesn't give a rats ass about Canadians or Canada and had the power to do so sure could.

[nicky10013]

I don't think Canada needs a larger miitary than it already is. I think we all need to face the fact that with a population of 34 million as opposed to the US, India and China and what they bring to the table, we can never bring a sizeable committment to a future conflict. I say we keep a small but capable force, specialized for certain tasks. What they are is up for discussion, but I think we need to focus our international efforts on economics and international development, areas where Canada has traditionally done very well.

[wyly]

Things were kind of quiet from 1867 to the Boer war........other than those pesky Metis at Batoche.....

Otherwise, Canada has had an unbroken string of strong alliances and participation in wars where plenty of people wanted to kill us.

So, there was no 'before'.

no one wanted to kill us, we involved ourselves in aggressive wars, other than the USA no country has ever attacked us first...

Boer war was an imperialistic war if there ever was a one we had no moral right taking part in it, we were the agressor on an equal level to that of Japan, Germany and the UK...it was an oppressive war against a people who didn't even know we existed and we did it to assit the UK in it's corporate pursuit of gold and diamonds...

[Wilber]

I don't think Canada needs a larger miitary than it already is. I think we all need to face the fact that with a population of 34 million as opposed to the US, India and China and what they bring to the table, we can never bring a sizeable committment to a future conflict. I say we keep a small but capable force, specialized for certain tasks. What they are is up for discussion, but I think we need to focus our international efforts on economics and international development, areas where Canada has traditionally done very well.

I agree with the first part but we are also part of military alliances that require us to make a contribution that benefits our allies as well as ourselves. These alliances are most important for countries like ourselves who do not have the resources to defend themselves alone. They are less important for the really powerful countries.

[wyly]

I don't think Canada needs a larger miitary than it already is. I think we all need to face the fact that with a population of 34 million as opposed to the US, India and China and what they bring to the table, we can never bring a sizeable committment to a future conflict. I say we keep a small but capable force, specialized for certain tasks. What they are is up for discussion, but I think we need to focus our international efforts on economics and international development, areas where Canada has traditionally done very well.

agreed...people lose sight of the fact we're a rather insignificant country, we need to live within our means...

[Wilber]

agreed...people lose sight of the fact we're a rather insignificant country, we need to live within our means...

Not insignificant to those who want and need what we have. If we are insignificant it is largely ourselves we have to blame.

[nicky10013]

Not insignificant to those who want and need what we have. If we are insignificant it is largely ourselves we have to blame.

We're insignificant in certain areas but can be a gigantic influence in others. My only point is we need to end the confusion as to which is which.

[bush_cheney2004]

We're insignificant in certain areas but can be a gigantic influence in others. My only point is we need to end the confusion as to which is which.

...and PM Harper will tell you that the only way to do that is to "have a seat at the grown ups' table".

[Wilber]

We're insignificant in certain areas but can be a gigantic influence in others. My only point is we need to end the confusion as to which is which.

Per capita we have more natural wealth than any other country on the planet. That is far from insignificant and makes us a pretty big target for anyone who needs what we have. I wonder if we would be having this conversation if we didn't share a border with the most powerful country on the planet who happens to be our ally. Perhaps we wouldn't even exist.

[wyly]

Not insignificant to those who want and need what we have. If we are insignificant it is largely ourselves we have to blame.

we sell whatever to whoever wants it, that won't change, free commerce will always be a less expensive option than war...insignificance is a result of ego, it just doesn't matter if we're a military power, it's not attainable...canada had respect and political significance when we were unbiased mediators but our conservative government has destroyed that good will, so now we're insignificant militarily and politically...

[wyly]

Per capita we have more natural wealth than any other country on the planet. That is far from insignificant and makes us a pretty big target for anyone who needs what we have. I wonder if we would be having this conversation if we didn't share a border with the most powerful country on the planet who happens to be our ally. Perhaps we wouldn't even exist.

rrrright...russia has the capability to roll over any of it's neighbours (except china) at will but yet russia cut loose those resource rich republics to pursue a independent course and buy the those resources they posess...but now you would have us believe they are going to invade us for ours? and the same applies for china and every other super power....what's to prevent the UK or France from attacking their former colonies and plundering them once again?..few of those colonies could offer any resistance to their former imperial masters are you expecting us to believe that the mighty armed forces of Trinidad are a deterrent to invasion by the UK? did Grenada's impressive forces save them from the USA?