Merkel says multi-culturalism has absolutely failed in Germany

[M.Dancer]

Of course they do, and then they stay poor.

Unless they are one out of thousands who become famous painter, which happen mostly after they die.

I know four people with arts degrees..one heads a Hollywood film PR company, another is a journalist, another is a curator at the NB provincial museum and the last went on to get a law degree and sat on the Braidwood Inquiry. A BFA is like a BA, it is either a stepping stone or and end on its own.

[Moonlight Graham]

double post

Edited October 27, 2010 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

Given almost all our immigrants come from failed cultures I fail to see what we can learn from them - other than how to abandon our failed cultures for a better life elsewhere.

"failed cultures"? That would be one the nuttiest thing i've read on here in awhile. You think Canadian aboriginals have "failed cultures" too?

probably should have use the phrase "less developed states".

[Moonlight Graham]

my thoughts on multiculturalism (and some on immigration):

Retaining culture is fine, but assimilation should be much encouraged also, and loyalty to Canada should be of the utmost importance.

I have no problem with people practicing their own culture in their home or in the community (as long as it doesn't harm anyone else). However, immigrants should be encouraged to become a part of Canada and our culture also. Just look at Quebec and we can see the problems that deep-seeded "multiculturalism" can cause for a country. I don't want to wake up in 20 years and have 8 different nationalist groups in Canada vying for independence.

The biggest thing i resent about multiculturalism is that its coming to define Canada's own culture, and it undermines Canadian nationalism & the loyalty citizens have to this country. If Canada's culture is largely defined as being all cultures, then Canada will have little real culture of its own.

When immigrants arrive in Canada and become Canadian citizens, they should swear unilateral allegiance to Canada. It is perfectly natural for an immigrant to feel/have ties to their former country, but if they choose to leave that country and come here and become a Canadian citizen they should be forced to denounce any former citizenship they had with any other country(s). I do not believe in dual-citizenship. If there's a serious international occurrence such as a war, the question is then which country are you loyal too? Canada or your former country? This decision should already be chosen when you decide to become a Canadian citizen. An immigrant is usually coming to Canada and becoming a citizen because this country offers something better than their former country. If you wish to keep the citizenship of your original country, or you believe your original country to be better than Canada, then by all means return to your former country.

This is Canada, it is easily one of the greatest countries/societies in the history of human civilization, so if one wishes to become a Canadian one should embrace this fact with enthusiasm.

I resent Canada becoming some hotel where people of different cultures/countries come here to reap the benefits that my grandfathers and great-grandfathers fought and in some cases died to protect, while their true loyalties remain abroad but they stay in Canada mostly because it offers them a higher standard of living, a safer society, better healthcare etc. Canada offers a damn fine life, but it's not a charity for any and all. I think these "Toronto 18" and other terrorists who show contempt and treason towards Canada should be given much tougher prison sentences and then see how much better that life is for them.

I'm not the greatest fan of nationalism, but this is the international system we live in. Canadian nationalism is fading very quickly. If Canada were to sink into the ocean, how many Canadians would feel a strong sense of nationalism to want to live together in the same country again? Or would we mostly all just go our separate ways? We need to teach MUCH more Canadian history in schools, what this country is all about. Have more pride where we came from and what we are now, and demand more of those people who wish to call this country their own.

[Shwa]

my thoughts on multiculturalism (and some on immigration):

And they're mostly agreeable good ones too!

Retaining culture is fine, but assimilation should be much encouraged also, and loyalty to Canada should be of the utmost importance.

During the citizenship ceremony - I have witnessed quite a few, new citizens have to recite this pledge (they can swear it on their own holy book if they want):

I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.

I have no problem with people practicing their own culture in their home or in the community (as long as it doesn't harm anyone else). However, immigrants should be encouraged to become a part of Canada and our culture also. Just look at Quebec and we can see the problems that deep-seeded "multiculturalism" can cause for a country. I don't want to wake up in 20 years and have 8 different nationalist groups in Canada vying for independence.

This is a bit contradictory though. Later on you say that Canada is "...easily one of the greatest countries/societies in the history of human civilization..." Well, this greatest includes Quebec and all the problems associated with "deep-seated multiculturalism" does in not?

The problem - as I see it - is that there seems to be this attitude of 'if Quebec, why not us?' or 'if the Aboriginals, why not us?' Of course this attitude completely ignores history and our Constitution. I would agree that Canadian history and law should be pushed as much as possible in mainstream Canadian education and there needs to be standards around this aspect of education similar to reading, writing and math.

The biggest thing i resent about multiculturalism is that its coming to define Canada's own culture, and it undermines Canadian nationalism & the loyalty citizens have to this country. If Canada's culture is largely defined as being all cultures, then Canada will have little real culture of its own.

I don't think that Canada's culture is largely defined as "being all cultures" but more about accepting of other cultures to the degrees in which they don't conflict with Canadian values. Canadians are pretty open-minded. This kind of reminds me of the Jesus-was-a Jew response to Christians who forget or ignore facts when criticising Judaism. Canada's fundamental openness to other cultures is not the result of some special ethnic interest groups that have recently arrived here. It is a legacy from our ancestors, our grandparents and all those people who foughts in wars to protect it.

When immigrants arrive in Canada and become Canadian citizens, they should swear unilateral allegiance to Canada. It is perfectly natural for an immigrant to feel/have ties to their former country, but if they choose to leave that country and come here and become a Canadian citizen they should be forced to denounce any former citizenship they had with any other country(s). I do not believe in dual-citizenship. If there's a serious international occurrence such as a war, the question is then which country are you loyal too? Canada or your former country? This decision should already be chosen when you decide to become a Canadian citizen. An immigrant is usually coming to Canada and becoming a citizen because this country offers something better than their former country. If you wish to keep the citizenship of your original country, or you believe your original country to be better than Canada, then by all means return to your former country.

Well the allegiance thing has already been covered and I am a fence sitter on dual-citizenship. Unless there are long standing tradition or law, I think dual citizenship shouldn't be required. But... we live in a very international community where moving back and forth is a matter of a few hundred dollars and a few hours.

This is Canada, it is easily one of the greatest countries/societies in the history of human civilization, so if one wishes to become a Canadian one should embrace this fact with enthusiasm.

Agreed. Not embracing this fact would approach a conflict with Canadian values. But does it? People should not confuse bitching as a sign that one is not enthusiastic about their country.

I resent Canada becoming some hotel where people of different cultures/countries come here to reap the benefits that my grandfathers and great-grandfathers fought and in some cases died to protect, while their true loyalties remain abroad but they stay in Canada mostly because it offers them a higher standard of living, a safer society, better healthcare etc. Canada offers a damn fine life, but it's not a charity for any and all. I think these "Toronto 18" and other terrorists who show contempt and treason towards Canada should be given much tougher prison sentences and then see how much better that life is for them.

Two points here - the reduction of the 'in-between' status designation and citizenship. Poop or get off the pot. Tougher prison sentences should include no special protection when in the can - that is, they go into the general population. The Toronto 18 might learn not confuse robbing a bank with contempt for one's country.

I'm not the greatest fan of nationalism, but this is the international system we live in. Canadian nationalism is fading very quickly. If Canada were to sink into the ocean, how many Canadians would feel a strong sense of nationalism to want to live together in the same country again? Or would we mostly all just go our separate ways? We need to teach MUCH more Canadian history in schools, what this country is all about. Have more pride where we came from and what we are now, and demand more of those people who wish to call this country their own.

Pretty much agree with you here. History should be used as a way of teaching language to new Canadians for example.

[Argus]

"failed cultures"? That would be one the nuttiest thing i've read on here in awhile. You think Canadian aboriginals have "failed cultures" too?

I would have thought that was patently self-evident.

[Moonlight Graham]

I would have thought that was patently self-evident.

Why? Because whitey completely destroyed their way of life & they're totally f'ed up because of it? "Oh lets give them land for reserves, it'll be just like their old way of life for them in there". ya that worked.

[Shwa]

Why? Because whitey completely destroyed their way of life & they're totally f'ed up because of it? "Oh lets give them land for reserves, it'll be just like their old way of life for them in there". ya that worked.

LOL, you are taking Argus' bait there MG?

I don't think "...whitey completely destroyed their way of life..." is quite accurate though, even with some of the devastation that has befallen most FN communities. The real bona fide cultural failure, when it comes to discussing Canada's Aboriginal people, is the policy of institutionalized assimilation. Despite the best efforts of goverment, through rule of law or rule or arms, is that many Aboriginal cultures - including the Metis and Inuit, are moving forward still.

A really good read is John Ralson Saul's "The Metis Nation." His clear and concise use of Canadian history puts master-baiters to shame.

[Saipan]

with some of the devastation that has befallen most FN communities.

Yes, too much food makes them fat. We ought to take away their can openers.

[bloodyminded]

Most liberals grew up in comfortable homes ? That's a conservative myth I've heard a few times, but impossible to prove since the definition of 'liberal' and 'comfortable homes' are so non-specific.

Yes, it's sheer nonsense. And if his personal anecdotal information has any worth...then my own, personal experience must logically undermine his claim here.

Edited October 30, 2010 by bloodyminded

[bloodyminded]

I'm sorry if complexity causes you stress. But what I said was fairly clear and logical. If you grow up poor and have to scramble your way into university and know a big debt awaits you at the end you're not going to take political science or sociology.

Here's an astonishing newsflash: the overwhelming, monumental majority of people who lean left are not Political Science and Sociology students.

I mean, the claim is so absurd it beggars the imagination.

[bloodyminded]

Of course they do, and then they stay poor.

Unless they are one out of thousands who become famous painter, which happen mostly after they die.

So you don't know what an "Arts" degree is.

Then why post about it?

Edited October 30, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Argus]

Why? Because whitey completely destroyed their way of life & they're totally f'ed up because of it? "Oh lets give them land for reserves, it'll be just like their old way of life for them in there". ya that worked.

Your own admission that they're "totally f'ed up" means that you are in clear agreement with my statement.

How they got that way is irrelevant.

[Argus]

Despite the best efforts of goverment, through rule of law or rule or arms, is that many Aboriginal cultures - including the Metis and Inuit, are moving forward still.

Oh really? Demonstrate that. Let's hear case reports of the numerous native communities which are uh, "moving forward".

I'm gonna guess right at the outside the only (very few) examples you'll find will be those who got a big chunk of cash from someone else to help them.

[jbg]

Ignatieff, Harper, Duceppe ?

And this has what to do with multiculturalism in either Canada or Germany?¹

¹I don't like to be critical but you weren't happy when I questioned the premise of a GW thread you started.

[jbg]

Why do you think people flee countries anyway? Because they're such nice places they want to play tourist?

Actually take note of the numbers fleeing from Canada to Pyongyang or Caracas or Sana.

[Shwa]

Actually take note of the numbers fleeing from Canada to Pyongyang or Caracas or Sana.

Actually that is an interesting point. Of the top 10 countries of US immigrants, Canada sits 9th, a few percentage points ahead of Korea, which lumps Canada in with Mexico, China, Phillipines, India, Vietnam, Cuba, El Salvador and the Domminican Republic.

Must be the cold.

Eh?

[Michael Hardner]

And this has what to do with multiculturalism in either Canada or Germany?¹

¹I don't like to be critical but you weren't happy when I questioned the premise of a GW thread you started.

You have to read back to where the poster made about about well-to-do socialists.