Full day kindergarten

[Melanie_]

I'm putting this in the Federal Politics section, because on-reserve education is a Federal responsibility. Ontario is extending full day kindergarten programs as part of the provincial education mandate, but children on reserves will not have access to full day programs, because the Federal government will not fund this. Are children who are already disadvantaged going to be starting even further behind, because of this?

The Star

First Nations children who attend schools on reserves are being left out of the province’s innovative all-day kindergarten plan.

While Ontario projects almost half of all kindergarten students will be in full-day programs by the fall of 2012, native education is a federal responsibility and the plan is not offered in First Nations-run schools, said regional Chief Angus Toulouse of the Chiefs of Ontario.

From further in the article, regarding who should be paying for the new program, there is a discussion about Jordan's Principle, which says that children should have equal access to services, and the jurisdictional arguments can be settled afterwards.

Who should pay for it should not be an issue, she added. Blackstock pointed out that Ontario supports Jordan’s Principle. The principle states that children on reserves should not be denied access to services available to all other kids because of jurisdictional disputes between the federal and provincial governments.

Jordan Anderson of Norway House Cree Nation spent two years in hospital unnecessarily because the Manitoba and federal government couldn’t agree on who should pay for his medical care at home. He died in hospital at age 5.

While this is relevent to Ontario for now, I can see that full day kindergarten is going to be spreading across the country. Does the federal government have a responsibility to match provincial education initiatives?

[M.Dancer]

Only 600 out of the 4,034 elementary schools have full day programmes...by next year there will be 800...

Welcome to the mainstream, first nation kids,,,

[Shwa]

I'm putting this in the Federal Politics section, because on-reserve education is a Federal responsibility. Ontario is extending full day kindergarten programs as part of the provincial education mandate, but children on reserves will not have access to full day programs, because the Federal government will not fund this. Are children who are already disadvantaged going to be starting even further behind, because of this?

The Star

From further in the article, regarding who should be paying for the new program, there is a discussion about Jordan's Principle, which says that children should have equal access to services, and the jurisdictional arguments can be settled afterwards.

While this is relevent to Ontario for now, I can see that full day kindergarten is going to be spreading across the country. Does the federal government have a responsibility to match provincial education initiatives?

I don't think there is a program-for-program match and most First Nations communities have the responsibility for delivery of the education, where possible, themselves. At this point, other than some special initiatives, INAC Education responsibility is more about funding and that itself is problematic.

Here is a decent paper from Caledon Institute for Social Policy that illustrates some of the present challenges with FN education:

Improving Education on Reserves: A First Nations Education Authority Act (M. Mendelson)

[Melanie_]

Only 600 out of the 4,034 elementary schools have full day programmes...by next year there will be 800...

Welcome to the mainstream, first nation kids,,,

Yes, it isn't universal yet, but this is a growing trend and at the provincial level there is political commitment to full day kindergarten.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Melanie_

[M.Dancer]

Yes, it isn't universal yet, but this is a growing trend and at the provincial level there is some political commitment to full day kindergarten.

There is nothing on the books after 2011. The first nations are part of the 80% it doesn't affect.

Even in Toronto...there will be only 16 schools offering it.....

[The_Squid]

If someone feels so strongly that full day kindergarten will help their kid, then move to an area that offers it.

Personally, I don't understand why anyone would choose to live on a reservation and in a system that hasn't worked for 200 years and never will.

[Bonam]

Being holed up in full day daycare (that's all that kindergarten is) at a young age is hardly an "advantage". Children would have a much greater advantage spending that time with their parents at that age. The disadvantaged are those who will be forced to partake in these programs, whose parents are so busy juggling jobs and paying the bills that they cannot devote a few extra hours per day to their young children.

[M.Dancer]

Being holed up in full day daycare (that's all that kindergarten is) at a young age is hardly an "advantage".

I have had children in daycare, and I have had children in kindergarten. Daycare is not kindergarten and vice versa...

[thomas]

It will be full spread eventually things like that do take time

[Topaz]

Small town Ontario, we`ve had here since the late 70`s 3 days a week.

[BubberMiley]

I have had children in daycare, and I have had children in kindergarten. Daycare is not kindergarten and vice versa...

Then, of course, there's proper daycare with ECEs and a curriculum, which is kindergarten for littler kids. No real dif.

[M.Dancer]

Then, of course, there's proper daycare with ECEs and a curriculum, which is kindergarten for littler kids. No real dif.

....except the standards are non existant between one centre to another and the whole question whether trying to teach a 3-4 year old is simply an effort in futility...

[Smallc]

....except the standards are non existant between one centre to another and the whole question whether trying to teach a 3-4 year old is simply an effort in futility...

I don't know about Ontario, but in Manitoba, the standards are very much there for licensed veterans.

[M.Dancer]

I don't know about Ontario, but in Manitoba, the standards are very much there for licensed veterans.

...but not ECE standards...standards perhaps for staff, etc...but the education aspect I imagine will vary quite a bit.

My daughter went to an "award winning" daycare in TO. They proudly display the letters of comendation from Olivia Chow and others...she also did her jr Kindergarten there....my son on the other hand went to public jr kindergarten and the difference between the two experiances is tremendous. By far my son's experiance was far better than the $1000 a month private one.

[BubberMiley]

....except the standards are non existant between one centre to another and the whole question whether trying to teach a 3-4 year old is simply an effort in futility...

In Manitoba, we have Early Childhood Educator diplomas that take two to four years to get. This standard applies to all centres.

Edited October 13, 2010 by BubberMiley

[M.Dancer]

In Manitoba, we have Early Childhood Educator diplomas that take two to four years to get. This standard applies to all centres.

Yes you can get those here too. I believe it is a community college course....right beside the food service class.

http://www.georgebrown.ca/Marketing/FTCal/early-childhood/C100.aspx

Or you can actually get a degree in ECE....

http://www.ryerson.ca/ece/about/

Daycares tend not to hire the degree folks, as they expect a wage commensurate with their education...

[August1991]

Are children who are already disadvantaged going to be starting even further behind, because of this?

...

Does the federal government have a responsibility to match provincial education initiatives?

I have to agree with Squid above.

Implicit in your questions, Melanie, is the assumption that someone else will take care of people's problems. This passiveness leads to paternalism and immature behaviour.

Eventually, people have to solve problems their own way.

[Melanie_]

I don't know the standards in other provinces, but in Manitoba every child care centre must have 2/3 of their staff trained to the ECE II or ECE III level. An ECE II has a 2 year college diploma, and an ECE III has a BA in child development, or an equivelent level of education. 1/3 of staff can be classified as Child Care Assistants, which means they pass the basic requirements of having a clean criminal records check, a clean child abuse registry check, hold a valid first aid certificate, and have successfully completed a 40 hour course in child development. We also have a public regulatory body that sets out standards that child care centres must meet, and that inspects child care centres every three months to ensure these standards are being met. It doesn't mean it is a perfect system, and there are certainly infractions that take place, but it is set up to strive towards a quality system.

But back to the issue of on reserve kindergarten....

Shwa posted an excellent article that showed clearly some of the issues that face on reserve schools. Funding and lack of infrastructure are a big piece of it, as well as the ongoing need to resolve the historical use of education as a tool of colonialism and oppression (residential schools), which generated mistrust of the goals of education. The article also talks about how there is no real transferability from reserve schools to off reserve schools, as children are generally two grades behind their off reserve age mates. With this in mind, having some children get an even more extensive academic head start may put on reserve children at a further disadvantage.

I'm not a real big fan of the idea of full day kindergarten, by the way. I think our society is pushing academics on children at earlier and earlier ages, so that they are pressured into formal learning way before they are ready for it. Maybe the on-reserve children are actually being given an advantage, in that they have more time to simply play and be children.

[Melanie_]

I have to agree with Squid above.

Implicit in your questions, Melanie, is the assumption that someone else will take care of people's problems. This passiveness leads to paternalism and immature behaviour.

Eventually, people have to solve problems their own way.

The article Shwa posted speaks to some of this, August. Devolution of the federal government's responsibility for First Nations education has been happening for 40 years, but there hasn't really been a good system put into place.

But I have to ask, if it is paternalistic to expect the federal government to fund on reserve education, is it also paternalistic to expect the province to fund off reserve education?

[BubberMiley]

Implicit in your questions, Melanie, is the assumption that someone else will take care of people's problems. This passiveness leads to paternalism and immature behaviour.

Eventually, people have to solve problems their own way.

What a bizarre and out-of-touch summary of the results of the public education system.