What Would the Palestinians Do...?

[dre]

The West Bank suffers from many of the same problems as other countries...

Sometimes they are ironic

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=309877

Good catch.

Thats bizzare. I think they just signed a free trade agreement with the EU as well, so even more of their economy will probably get price-dumped into the toilet.

[DogOnPorch]

The West Bank suffers from many of the same problems as other countries...

Sometimes they are ironic

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=309877

Must be fake news because I'm led to believe that Gaza and the WB are under occupation and suffering a brutal siege as per some of the more bloody WW2 affairs. Fake...like the news of nightclubs, swimming pools, etc. Stop posting lies...you're a dishonest poster. [/naiomi]

[dre]

Must be fake news because I'm led to believe that Gaza and the WB are under occupation and suffering a brutal siege as per some of the more bloody WW2 affairs. Fake...like the news of nightclubs, swimming pools, etc. Stop posting lies...you're a dishonest poster. [/naiomi]

More intellectually dishonest bullshit, and outright strawman fallacy.

[DogOnPorch]

More intellectually dishonest bullshit, and outright strawman fallacy.

We're talking about Gaza/WB? So it isn't a starving war-zone on par with Stalingrad?

[dre]

We're talking about Gaza/WB? So it isn't a starving war-zone on par with Stalingrad?

Youre having a conversation with an imaginary person inside your head. Nobody claimed that hats were not allowed in.

And the underlying premise of this conversation youre having with yourself, is that since hats are allowed in the occupation/blockade/water restrictions/illegal settlements etc, dont constitute an oppressive environment that causes humanitarian issues.

The bizzare thing is you apparently cant even see how bogus this whole line of thought is. Were talking about such an EPIC failure in basic logic and reason that it literally boggles the mind.

So it isn't a starving war-zone on par with Stalingrad?

Can even get 5 words out without randomly bleeting "WW2!!!" or the "NAZIS!!!". And who the hell are you talking to? Who said the occupation was on par with Stalindrad?

[DogOnPorch]

Go Gaza WB now has mere "humanitarian issues" rather than being a hellish war-zone akin to say...The Somme?

[bloodyminded]

Go Gaza WB now has mere "humanitarian issues" rather than being a hellish war-zone akin to say...The Somme?

Of course the issues are funny to you. They're only Arabs.

[DogOnPorch]

Of course the issues are funny to you. They're only Arabs.

Some folks laugh at dead Jews during the Holocaust...some laugh at Olympic swimming pools in an area apparently devoid of cement. To each his/her own, eh?

[bloodyminded]

Some folks laugh at dead Jews during the Holocaust...some laugh at Olympic swimming pools in an area apparently devoid of cement. To each his/her own, eh?

I guess. But let's be clear: you're not laughing at swimming pools; you're laughing at the suffering of human beings, because your political opinion is far, far more important than mere human beings.

But as you say, to each his/her own.

[DogOnPorch]

I guess. But let's be clear: you're not laughing at swimming pools; you're laughing at the suffering of human beings, because your political opinion is far, far more important than mere human beings.

But as you say, to each his/her own.

Oh...so the residents of Gaza/WB are now suffering? Suffering like...say...Union troops imprisoned @ Andersonville? Or perhaps the Russian 2nd Army surrounded @ Tannenberg? Maybe Hamas shouldn't have bothered with the swimming pools and nightclubs if things are so full of suffering.

[bush_cheney2004]

I guess. But let's be clear: you're not laughing at swimming pools; you're laughing at the suffering of human beings, because your political opinion is far, far more important than mere human beings.

But as you say, to each his/her own.

Of course political opinion and freedom of speech / expression are "far, far" more important than the "suffering" of human beings. How much "suffering" is too much? Suffering is neither unique or remarkable vis-a-vis Palestinians.

[bloodyminded]

Oh...so the residents of Gaza/WB are now suffering? Suffering like...say...Union troops imprisoned @ Andersonville? Or perhaps the Russian 2nd Army surrounded @ Tannenberg? Maybe Hamas shouldn't have bothered with the swimming pools and nightclubs if things are so full of suffering.

No, Hamas, as you and I agree, have done more things wrong at this point than could probably be counted, once you factor in the reams of criminal activity that we don't know about.

But your analogies as to amount of suffering? That could be an argument for mocking almost any suffering, by asserting (correctly, but irrelevantly) that some others have had it worse.

[dre]

Go Gaza WB now has mere "humanitarian issues" rather than being a hellish war-zone akin to say...The Somme?

Look... its hard for any of us to be part of a discussion between you, and and your imaginary friend. YOU are the one making comparisons to Stalingrad... not anybody else. Then you make fun of YOUR OWN comparisons and declare victory . The question is what does that have to do with any of us?

[dre]

No, Hamas, as you and I agree, have done more things wrong at this point than could probably be counted, once you factor in the reams of criminal activity that we don't know about.

But your analogies as to amount of suffering? That could be an argument for mocking almost any suffering, by asserting (correctly, but irrelevantly) that some others have had it worse.

Dude... youre expecting it to display elementary level logic and reason. Whats next? Gonna have a conversation about architecture with a fish?

[bush_cheney2004]

.... The question is what does that have to do with any of us?

Very simple....bleeding hearts for Palestine are asking us to elevate their version of "suffering" just because of a political agenda. Let's read about some real sufferin' !!

[bloodyminded]

Very simple....bleeding hearts for Palestine are asking us to elevate their version of "suffering" just because of a political agenda. Let's read about some real sufferin' !!

Like rockets fired into Israel.

[bush_cheney2004]

Like rockets fired into Israel.

That's not sufferin'....that's an opportunity to visit even more sufferin' on the poor oppressed Palestinian rocketeers.

[dre]

Very simple....bleeding hearts for Palestine are asking us to elevate their version of "suffering" just because of a political agenda. Let's read about some real sufferin' !!

The belief that living under a permanent occupation prevents human development, and creates and worsens poverty and human suffering is not a political one. Its objectively true regardless of political spin.

The fact is you and I know both know that if the situation was reversed and it was Arabs that were occupying jewish land, bulldozing their homes, building settlements, preventing them from feeding themselves though agriculture and so on, you would jumping up and down screaming bloody murder.

The difference is I would have the exact same opinion about that as I do now. About half my extended family lives in Israel... my mothers entire side of the family. If Arabs were occupying Telaviv I would be saying the exact same thing about that as I am now.

So whos got the political adgenda? Its not too tough to see is it...

[bush_cheney2004]

The belief that living under a permanent occupation prevents human development, and creates and worsens poverty and human suffering is not a political one. Its objectively true regardless of political spin.

Then cry me a river over Caledonia. Or the Black Hills of South Dakota. Or Davis Inlet. Or Okinawa. Or....

The fact is you and I know both know that if the situation was reversed and it was Arabs that were occupying jewish land, bulldozing their homes, building settlements, preventing them from feeding themselves though agriculture and so on, you would jumping up and down screaming bloody murder.

No...I am on record here for the opposite....settlements and bulldozing are not in and of themselves deserving of rocket attacks and/or suicide bombers.

The difference is I would have the exact same opinion about that as I do now. About half my extended family lives in Israel... my mothers entire side of the family. If Arabs were occupying Telaviv I would be saying the exact same thing about that as I am now.

How noble...Arabs are not occupying "Telaviv".

So whos got the political adgenda? Its not too tough to see is it...

You do....I will use the same tired logic often invoked by others around here concerning US policy....if you are so concerned about "suffering", why are you not a champion for the far more poor and suffering elsewhere (i.e. Haiti or SubSaharan Africa)?

The answer is obvious....

[DogOnPorch]

The answer is obvious....

Simply not enough juice.

[bloodyminded]

Then cry me a river over Caledonia. Or the Black Hills of South Dakota. Or Davis Inlet. Or Okinawa. Or....

No...I am on record here for the opposite....settlements and bulldozing are not in and of themselves deserving of rocket attacks and/or suicide bombers.

How noble...Arabs are not occupying "Telaviv".

You do....I will use the same tired logic often invoked by others around here concerning US policy....if you are so concerned about "suffering", why are you not a champion for the far more poor and suffering elsewhere (i.e. Haiti or SubSaharan Africa)?

The answer is obvious....

If it's obvious, it applies to every single poster of every political stripe. Their favoured subjects (like your own) could always and easily be dismised as agenda-driven and disingenuous.

And if you agree with that, then the real question is why your political agenda leaves certain people off the hook, and not others.

[bush_cheney2004]

If it's obvious, it applies to every single poster of every political stripe. Their favoured subjects (like your own) could always and easily be dismised as agenda-driven and disingenuous.

Having a hard-on for Israel and "Zionism" is hardly new or unusual, but still preferable to the meek who think the world must always be "fair".

And if you agree with that, then the real question is why your political agenda leaves certain people off the hook, and not others.

There is no hook....that is a figment of your moral imagination. There is only power....those who have it...and those who want it.

[bloodyminded]

Having a hard-on for Israel and "Zionism" is hardly new or unusual, but still preferable to the meek who think the world must always be "fair".

Not "must." Should.

It can never happen, but the sublime is always a dream that can never be achieved. That goes for every good thing you would like to see for society or for the world; it has nothing to do with "the meek."

There is no hook....that is a figment of your moral imagination.

No. you will hold a self-desribed defender of the Palestinians to a different level--a higher one--than you will hold a self-desribed defender of Israel. The former, you say, would show more integrity, or intelligence, or reason, if they concentrated their efforts on worse, more devastated places...sub-Saharan Africa, for example.

But for those with whom you are more politically aligned, there is no remonstrance about mislaid sympathies...even though, as you know, they are equally manifest. (That's assuming your argument was correct, when I think it an arguable premise.)

There's nothing unique here: most of us are guilty of this to some degree, or in some way. I'm just not sure why you're denying it.

There is only power....those who have it...and those who want it.

Is there a larger point to this remark?

Edited October 14, 2010 by bloodyminded

[bush_cheney2004]

Not "must." Should.

Why?

It can never happen, but the sublime is always a dream that can never be achieved. That goes for every good thing you would like to see for society or for the world; it has nothing to do with "the meek."

I'm arrogant...but not that arrogant. Keep your mandatory "good things" (and bad ideas) away from me.

No. you will hold a self-desribed defender of the Palestinians to a different level--a higher one--than you will hold a self-desribed defender of Israel. The former, you say, would show more integrity, or intelligence, or reason, if they concentrated their efforts on worse, more devastated places...sub-Saharan Africa, for example.

Easy Francis....the obvious point is that Palestinians do not register as high on the absolute "suffering scale", save for the political agenda in play.

But for those with whom you are more politically aligned, there is no remonstrance about mislaid sympathies...even though, as you know, they are equally manifest. (That's assuming your argument was correct, when I think it an arguable premise.)

I have little time for either forms of sympathy....there is only power and aligned interests to maintain power. Israel is aligned with my selfish interests, and many others around here, but they don't want to admit it. IIRC, Canada did not close the border to US trade after the invasion of Iraq!

There's nothing unique here: most of us are guilty of this to some degree, or in some way. I'm just not sure why you're denying it.

Restating my point is appreciated.

Is there a larger point to this remark?

[bloodyminded]

Why?

Not a serious question.

I'm arrogant...but not that arrogant. Keep your mandatory "good things" (and bad ideas) away from me.

Wrong. You do think there are good ideas and bad ideas (as is clear from your assessment of mine--it's not even a debatable point.)

And the ideas you consider to be the best ones can and will never achieve absolute fruition. But you continue to wish or hope.

Easy Francis....the obvious point is that Palestinians do not register as high on the absolute "suffering scale", save for the political agenda in play.

Yes, I'm well aware of the conventional pieties uttered by politicized polemicists who have taught you them.

I have little time for either forms of sympathy

Wrong. You are in every way a perfectly ordinary right-winger who has been trained to deride anything leftist, because leftists tend, on the whole, to be slightly wiser than you are.

You're conventional; neither unique, nor insightful. Francis.

....there is only power and aligned interests to maintain power.

This isn't even meaningful. It's a moronic platitude, uttered by someone who thinks he's above all trivial matters like morality--until someone offends your sensibilities about "the American troops" (mostly pussies, by the way) or Reagan (terrorist-supporter, objectively worse than Hamas or Hezbollah).

You've already displayed your sanctimonious moral outrage on such subjects. So, you don't even believe what you're saying here.

Israel is aligned with my selfish interests, and many others around here, but they don't want to admit it.

No, your self-desribed align[ing] with Israel is wholly ideological, based on your native obedience.

IIRC, Canada did not close the border to US trade after the invasion of Iraq!

I'd think you'd have understood, after all this time, that not only do your remarks about Canada not offend me...but that I more often than not agree with them.

It's only your American nationalistic servility and worship of powerful men that I find strange. Not your reasonable criticisms of Canada.

Restating my point is appreciated.

You're very welcome.