DogOnPorch Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 Here's the area in question from that time (2002)... Link to Google Maps So that (lol) "river" has a small rock dam with a two metre wide opening which creats a small pool behind it. It's right on the dmz, of course...Aarab el Louaize = al-Wazzani. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 I believe that is a spring on the Hasbani system rather than a lake. Either way, daming rivers/creeks will no doubt get some 'sabres rattling' as there's an unratified agreement re: water usage on the Jordan and its tributaries. Israel was concerned that the dam would have negative results all along the entire Jordan...especially if the project grew in scope. But...it (the rock dam) got built...and Israel didn't attack Lebanon over this issue. Thats correct. Its a small river that feeds the Litany. Its also true that the incident never sparked a war (unlike some of the other water diversion projects). It was just meant to illustrate the extent to which water is a core component of the conflict and has been a flash point since the beginning. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 Thats correct. Its a small river that feeds the Litany. Its also true that the incident never sparked a war (unlike some of the other water diversion projects). It was just meant to illustrate the extent to which water is a core component of the conflict and has been a flash point since the beginning. Sure...but once again...water is more a prize in this contest rather than the cause. The 1948 War wasn't fought over water, for example. Nor was 1967's Six Day War no matter Syria's actions in regards to diverting rivers. Certainly not 1973's Yom Kippur/October War. Just killing Jews...water or not. That was the plan...Israel's destruction...not getting along and playing fair over water issues. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 (edited) Sure...but once again...water is more a prize in this contest rather than the cause. The 1948 War wasn't fought over water, for example. Nor was 1967's Six Day War no matter Syria's actions in regards to diverting rivers. Certainly not 1973's Yom Kippur/October War. Just killing Jews...water or not. That was the plan...Israel's destruction...not getting along and playing fair over water issues. Conflicts over water have happened throughout the course of the conflict. And water was most definately a big factor in the 1967 war, that war ACTUALLY was just the final battle in a war that started 2 years earlier with an Israeli attack on an Arab water project. Neither the jews or arabs can survive without water... they cant irrigate crops. So theres really no point in even talking about a two state solution until you solve the water issue, because Israel is just flat out NOT going to surrender 1/3 of its water supply by pulling out of the west bank (Which is has no intention of doing EVER). In Israels defense NO country would do that... water is more a prize Yeah yeah of course! Being able to feed your population is just an unimportant consolation prize Like a toaster oven! Edited October 12, 2010 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jbg Posted October 12, 2010 Author Report Posted October 12, 2010 From what I can tell most of the states in the area including Israel are moochers and dont ever even go a year without foreign welfare checks. Do you have any idea how much money Israel and Egypt have been give over the last couple of decades? Israel wouldn't need checks but for the constant threat of attack. And Egypt gets checks as bribes for promising not to attack Israel. Israel wouldn't need checks with peace. No doubt the other countries would.But again... We would have to wait and see (except it will never happen to this whole excersize is hypothetical). My guess is Palestine would remain a fairly poor state, but that they would have a chance to make things a lot better than they are now.Sure they'd have a chance; can they develop a Puritan or Japanese work ethic? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted October 12, 2010 Author Report Posted October 12, 2010 So theres really no point in even talking about a two state solution until you solve the water issue, because Israel is just flat out NOT going to surrender 1/3 of its water supply by pulling out of the west bank (Which is has no intention of doing EVER). In Israels defense NO country would do that...Especially when Egypt, Syria and Jordan gave Israel one big fat reason to attack in June 1967. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
DogOnPorch Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 (edited) dre: Yeah yeah of course! Being able to feed your population is just an unimportant consolation prize Like a toaster oven! Your attempts to rewrite history won't work here. To say it is just about water doesn't explain (explain away in your case) folks like Nasser, The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. Their stated goals re: Israel has/had nothing to do with water. Just death, death and more death. In the Mufti's case, his hatred for Jews went so far that he and his cronies joined the Nazis and raised divisions for the SS. In Nasser's case it went so far as to hide former Nazis from justice as well as create his own version of National Socialism...Pan Arabism. Hamas and Hezbollah still use the fascist Nazi salute as per their hero, Haj Amin. Syria...well there's a plum of a nation that still experiments with biological/chemical warfare as a possible option in a future war with Israel. Why folks even give them the time-of-day remains a mystery to me. But you do...go figure. Edited October 12, 2010 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 (edited) Especially when Egypt, Syria and Jordan gave Israel one big fat reason to attack in June 1967. Both sides gave each other plenty of big fat reasons before that. Israels bombing of the Arab water worx was also a major provocation and lead to Nassers actions on the Sinai. What you have essentially is two belligerent children fighting over a limited supply of dinky cars in the same sandbox. Of COURSE they both point fingers at the other and say "They started it". The reality is though that by that time, they had already been provoking each other for so long thats not even really relevant. Bottom line is... both sides were willing to fight for control of the water. Both sides thought they could win. Only one side did. And before Israel had even trashed the Egyptian airforce they had already moved their Water Works under control of the IDF, who were given the order to immediately take control of strategic water resources. It was very much like the Americans locking down the oil wells as they invaded Iraq. Israels plan to secure that water was in place well before the war broke out. Just for fun... Take a look at a map of IDF troop movements during the war, and compare it to a map of water resources. Funny how how perfect the correlation is. Wiki describes the role of water pretty nicely but any other source will tell you about the same thing. Although small scale water-related skirmishes had occurred following the 1949 Armistice Agreements, the major escalation took place in 1964, following Israel's completion of its National Water Carrier Project. Arab states regarded the Israeli project as a unilateral usage of water resources outside the river basin; in response they attempted to finance and build the joint Syrian-Lebanese Headwater Diversion Plan, which would have diverted some water from flowing into the Sea of Galilee, where the National Water Carrier starts. The headwaters diversion would have sharply reduced the amount of water available for Israeli use. Israel declared it would regard such a diversion as an infringement of its sovereign rights. In November, when activities for the Arab diversion project started, Israel began launching military operations to thwart the plan and stop project construction. Israel eventually achieved that goal. Control of water resources and Israeli military attacks regarding the diversion effort are considered among the major factors which led to the Six-Day War in June 1967. Edited October 12, 2010 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 Your attempts to rewrite history won't work here. To say it is just about water doesn't explain (explain away in your case) folks like Nasser, The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. Their stated goals re: Israel has/had nothing to do with water. Just death, death and more death. In the Mufti's case, his hatred for Jews went so far that he and his cronies joined the Nazis and raised divisions for the SS. In Nasser's case it went so far as to hide former Nazis from justice as well as create his own version of National Socialism...Pan Arabism. Hamas and Hezbollah still use the fascist Nazi salute as per their hero, Haj Amin. Syria...well there's a plum of a nation that still experiments with biological/chemical warfare as a possible option in a future war with Israel. Why folks even give them the time-of-day remains a mystery to me. But you do...go figure. I dont give any of them the time of day. I wouldnt trust either side as far as I can throw them. Its funny you know... because around the world various conflicts have managed to resolve themselves. A lot of people in bitter regional struggles have been able to bury the hatchet at least to some extend and co-exist in relative peace. But not the freaking Palestinians and Israelis Those clowns will still be poking each other with sticks in a thousand years. You can ignore history and blame only one side all you want, but theres the assertion has no basis in fact. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 I dont give any of them the time of day. I wouldnt trust either side as far as I can throw them. Its funny you know... because around the world various conflicts have managed to resolve themselves. A lot of people in bitter regional struggles have been able to bury the hatchet at least to some extend and co-exist in relative peace. But not the freaking Palestinians and Israelis Those clowns will still be poking each other with sticks in a thousand years. You can ignore history and blame only one side all you want, but theres the assertion has no basis in fact. It's you that ignores history. When you start to ignore history you go into your classic "I blame all sides" mode which pretty much relativizes people like the Grand Mufti as no better or no worse than the Jews he sent to the gas chambers. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 It's you that ignores history. When you start to ignore history you go into your classic "I blame all sides" mode which pretty much relativizes people like the Grand Mufti as no better or no worse than the Jews he sent to the gas chambers. No acknowledging boths sides roles in starting and perpetuating the conflict is merely acknowledging historical fact. It doesnt justify anything done by leaders on either side. You simply to choose it see it that way because youre a fan-boy of one side in the conflict based on politics. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 No acknowledging boths sides roles in starting and perpetuating the conflict is merely acknowledging historical fact. It doesnt justify anything done by leaders on either side. You simply to choose it see it that way because youre a fan-boy of one side in the conflict based on politics. You have no idea re: my connection to the conflict. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 As an example: WW2. Were both sides crazed armed groups or was one side doing something "bad"? To use your thinking: YES...both the Allies and the Axis were up to no good. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 You have no idea re: my connection to the conflict. Sure I do. You parrot the exact same talking points Iv been hearing for 30 years. Youre obviously a person with an ideological pesdisposition to seeing things a certain way. I would compare it to the way that a sports fan always thinks the bad calls against his team are unfair. Which is fine... you have the right to pile onto one side in the conflict and gleefully parrot all its propoganda, and theres no question that a lot of people do the same thing at the opposite end of the spectrum. But I have a right NOT be a fan of either side, and if you look at the conflict objectively there is no shortage of evidence AT ALL to support the conclusion that both sides have been complicate in creating the animosity that exists there today. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 As an example: WW2. Were both sides crazed armed groups or was one side doing something "bad"? To use your thinking: YES...both the Allies and the Axis were up to no good. And BANG there we have it. Godwins law. Since I dont blindly support everything Israel does that MUST mean I regard the Nazis equal to the Allies in WW2. You know... Oddly enough the suprising thing isnt that you played that card, its that it took you until page 3 to do it. To use your thinking: YES...both the Allies and the Axis were up to no good. For you to "use my thinking" would be comparable to a monkey flying a plane. It would crash just like your faux WW2 comparison just did. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 (edited) Nah...one side of this conflict was burnt in ovens during WW2 while elements of the other side were lighting the fires. Godwin's Law only applies to threads not involving Nazis. Edited October 12, 2010 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 Sure I do. You parrot the exact same talking points Iv been hearing for 30 years. Youre obviously a person with an ideological pesdisposition to seeing things a certain way. I would compare it to the way that a sports fan always thinks the bad calls against his team are unfair. Which is fine... you have the right to pile onto one side in the conflict and gleefully parrot all its propoganda, and theres no question that a lot of people do the same thing at the opposite end of the spectrum. But I have a right NOT be a fan of either side, and if you look at the conflict objectively there is no shortage of evidence AT ALL to support the conclusion that both sides have been complicate in creating the animosity that exists there today. Again...you do not know my family's connection to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted October 12, 2010 Report Posted October 12, 2010 Nah...one side of this conflict was burnt in ovens during WW2 while elements of the other side were lighting the fires. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted October 13, 2010 Report Posted October 13, 2010 The Grand Mufti was in the SS...or have you forgotten that again? In 1948 he was facing some of the very same folks he tried to murder at Auschwitz in 1944. Several hundred thousand weren't so lucky. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted October 13, 2010 Report Posted October 13, 2010 The Grand Mufti was in the SS...or have you forgotten that again? In 1948 he was facing some of the very same folks he tried to murder at Auschwitz in 1944. Several hundred thousand weren't so lucky. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted October 13, 2010 Report Posted October 13, 2010 Nice to know the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews makes you laugh. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted October 13, 2010 Report Posted October 13, 2010 Nice to know the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews makes you laugh. Yeah nice to know that eh? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted October 13, 2010 Report Posted October 13, 2010 Yeah nice to know that eh? You're the dumb ass laughing at dead Jews...not I. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted October 13, 2010 Report Posted October 13, 2010 You're the dumb ass laughing at dead Jews...not I. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bud Posted October 13, 2010 Report Posted October 13, 2010 The Grand Mufti was in the SS...or have you forgotten that again? In 1948 he was facing some of the very same folks he tried to murder at Auschwitz in 1944. Several hundred thousand weren't so lucky. does the collaboration of this single person mean that palestinians were nazis? majority of palestinians and the arab world ignored the call on jihad by the mufti. palestinians had an incentive to help the allies, as they were promised restrictions on jewish immigration and a promise of full independence. the peoples and governments of many countries in europe collaborated openly with the nazis. tragically, many of these peoples and governments happily pointed out their jewish citizens to the gestapo. so it's unfair, if not outright criminal, to exploit the grand mufti's conduct in order to eternally condemn the palestinian people as nazis, while ignoring the choices made by most european peoples and governments who openly collaborated with the nazis. lets not forget the zionists who supported and collaborated with the nazis and the axis. the jewish stern gang received weapons from the italian fascists to use against the british. here is a scanned copy of a letter sent by the stern gang to nazi germany, asking for an alliance. you can read all about it in joseph heller's book: The Stern Gang: Ideology, Politics and Terror, 1940-1949 then of course, one of the fathers of the modern day zionism ideology, zeev jabotinsky wrote this before his death: "The world has become accustomed to the idea of mass migrations and has become fond of them." He later added, "Hitler--- as odious as he is to us---has given this idea a good name in the world." that's from jewish historian tom segev's book. i'm sure your simple, one tracked brain will not allow this information to process and we'll continue to see you post how palestinians are nazis. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
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