Israel clears... Israel

[jbg]

In any case, I did a quick search of Jewish resistance in wiki, and they didn't always act so bookishly!I read your article. The fact is that violent resistance even to massacre was little and late.

The sad fact is that long-term Jewish security is being damaged by their current policies. By refusing to make any earnest attempts to meet a peaceful resolution with the Palestinians, they only alienate themselves in the region. Which, in the end, will cause much more grief for everyone. I do not envy Israel and its children.

I would love to see a peaceful solution. Anwar Sadat got one by offering peace in return for land. The problem is that the Palestinians: a) have no one with authority to negotiate for them; and refuse conceptually to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. They insist on the right to flood pre-1967 Israel with immigrants so as to dilute and eventually end Israel's Jewish identity. This is a deal breaker, as is return of the Old City of Jerusalem.

[jbg]

Interesting..do you mean "Jewish" or "Israeli"? Are Jews in Canada not secure?

Not if he had anything to say about it.

[dre]

Interesting..do you mean "Jewish" or "Israeli"? Are Jews in Canada not secure?

I think Jews all around the world probably face increased levels of anti-semetism, by people who focus their anger towards Israel on Jews. Its retarded that anyone would do that, just like its retarded when the same thing happens to muslims or anyone else, but it happens.

The problem is you have two different constructs colliding. A modern nation state, and a group of people (jews) that live all around the world. Israel has engaged in a whole host of contraversial and in some cases you could argue, flat out illegal activity... all the while proclaiming themselves as "The Jewish State". But only a minority of the worlds Jews live in Israel or have anything to do with it. Theres more Jews living in the United States and Canada than there is in middle east.

And yeah... Jews in Canada are "secure", which is probably why we have more Jews per capita than any country on earth besides Israel and the US. And they SHOULD be secure. Anybody that tries to hold someone accountable for their attributes (height, weight, size, color, religion, etc) as opposed to their actions (who and what they are as individuals) is an idiot.

[dre]

Not if he had anything to say about it.

Dude, thats just over the top. Can you point out which statements on his part justify youre accusation that hes a dude that would like to threaten the security or well being of jewish Canadians?

[DogOnPorch]

Dude, thats just over the top. Can you point out which statements on his part justify youre accusation that hes a dude that would like to threaten the security or well being of jewish Canadians?

How about that one of yours where you state Israel is a foreign invasion? How

of you.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think Jews all around the world probably face increased levels of anti-semetism, by people who focus their anger towards Israel on Jews. Its retarded that anyone would do that, just like its retarded when the same thing happens to muslims or anyone else, but it happens.

This is not a new experience for Jews or other groups...let's see how the "muslims" (sic) like it.

And yeah... Jews in Canada are "secure", which is probably why we have more Jews per capita than any country on earth besides Israel and the US. And they SHOULD be secure. Anybody that tries to hold someone accountable for their attributes (height, weight, size, color, religion, etc) as opposed to their actions (who and what they are as individuals) is an idiot.

The "actions" of some Muslims invite such reactions, deserved or not. Israel should be secure as well....and it will do it's best to make it so...just like Canada and the United States.

[Oleg Bach]

SHARON is still running the place - From what I hear there is now a plastic version of him and Jewish habitualism continues with out thought or reason...perfect leader - one in a bed made out of plastic and another on life support...looks good on the selfish "homeland - never again - you are an animal unless you are Jewish" crowd ...seems that the whole world has turned to shit and socialism is responsible - The persecution of those baring the good gifts of God that will benefit humanity - and the exaultation of the mediorcre and compliant...seems as one man said.."some people don't want to be saved" - looks like the arrogant pricks supporting Israel really don't care about quality of life - they care about growning a fat ass..

[Slim]

Not if he had anything to say about it.

Well, so much for civilised discussion. Thanks for implying that I want Jews to be harmed. Real classy.

[Oleg Bach]

Well, so much for civilised discussion. Thanks for implying that I want Jews to be harmed. Real classy.

Like you I really do not wish any harm on any individual or group..no reasonable person walks about with murder and mayhem as their primary thought...those that imply that YOU or I want to harm someone - are usually those most capable of doing harm - or it would have not come to mind.

[dre]

How about that one of yours where you state Israel is a foreign invasion? How

of you.

Youre inventing stuff. I didnt say that "Israel" was a foreign invasion.

[jbg]

Well, so much for civilised discussion. Thanks for implying that I want Jews to be harmed. Real classy.

Your implication that we're a violent people is hardly classy and demonstrably untrue. I happen to be one of the more civilized posters on this Board.

[Slim]

Your implication that we're a violent people is hardly classy and demonstrably untrue. I happen to be one of the more civilized posters on this Board.

Er... what?

I'm beginning to think this is going nowhere. Which is, sadly, what usually happens when the Israeli/Palestinian conflict comes up.

[KeyStone]

"So you're saying it's O.K. for Israel's opponents to fight asymetrically but if Israel kills any civilians in an attack aimed primarily at military targets it's offensive? You'll have to explain that."

Israel likes to make the rules of what is fair, and what is not fair.

According to Israel, the fair ways for the Palestinians to fight would be to wear uniforms, and march in a nice little line, far away from any civilians. The response to this would be for Israel to decimate them with billion dollar warplanes. They really don't have any choice but to blend in with the civilian population. This is how guerilla warfare is done. This is why Vietnam was such a problem for the US.

If Israel wants the Palestinians to fight fair, then put down the billion dollar warplanes, and the drones, and the thousand dollar guns, and the nightvision goggles, and the tanks. I can assure you that Palestinians would love to fight the IDF barehanded. Would the IDF be willing to do the same? Of course not. They would prefer to use drones to kill Palestinians.

As for the killing of civilians, Israel kills far more Palestinians civilians than Palestians kill Israeli civilians.

Israel kills far more children than Palestinians. So what if the missile was intended for a terrorist. What if the Palestinians made some crude attempt to target IDF in Israel? And if they missed and hit a school, or a bunch of civilians - oh well, at least they are trying to hit the IDF child-killers, so I guess that makes it OK? Would that appease your sense of need to be trying to target the military?

Besides which, it doesn't seem to make a difference if Palestine targets the IDF child-killers or civilians. When they kidnapped the IDF child-killer Gilad Shalit, Israel still responded by bombing civilian populations, did they not?

Whether you or Israel choose to admit it or not, Israel engages in collective punishment of Palestinians.

When they can not figure out who is responsible for a missile attack, they do not just throw up their hands and say: 'Darn, I guess they win this round' - they reciprocate against whoever is convenient, fully aware that many civilians will get hurt or killed along the way. That is how they play the game, regardless of their 'intentions' to go after terrorists.

Israel believes that because they are superior militarily, that the Palestinians must accept peace under the terms that Israel offers them. They believe that Palestinians should not be able to leverage any power through military means, and that they have the right to reciprocate tenfold, even if that reciprocation is not accurately directed at the right targets.

[M.Dancer]

This is how guerilla warfare is done.

No that is how asymetrical warfiare is done and why it is considered illegal is precisely why so many civilians get killed.

When guerillas fought the germans in Yugoslavia, they wore identifying marks and holed themselves up in the mountains and fought the germans there. When the Philipinos fought the Japanese, they did it in the jungles...Of course, those men we can call brave....when the plaestinians do it it is behind the dresses of women

[KeyStone]

"No that is how asymetrical warfiare is done and why it is considered illegal is precisely why so many civilians get killed."

Illegal? Don't tell me you suddenly care about pesky things such as international law all of a sudden.

Next thing you know, you'll think that the Geneva conventions is a relevant document.

"When guerillas fought the germans in Yugoslavia, they wore identifying marks and holed themselves up in the mountains and fought the germans there. When the Philipinos fought the Japanese, they did it in the jungles..."

Great examples from seventy years ago.

The key difference is that in 1942, neither the Japanese nor the Germans had F-15's with heat-seeking missiles etc etc.

"Of course, those men we can call brave...."

I know you think the guy in Tel Aviv controlling the drones to kill militants and civilians is brave.

And no doubt, the guys launching missiles from 200 km away are very brave.

Wikileaks certainly gave us a great video to demonstrate just how brave those US soldiers are.

According to you, the only way a Palestinian can fight bravely is if he wears a uniform and stands out in a field with a big target on his head, to get shot down by a drone.

Like I say, anytime the cowardly IDF child-killers want to fight without their weapons, I guarantee you that there are plenty of Arabs who would love to step up. But we all know that Israel doesn't want a fair fight.

when the plaestinians do it it is behind the dresses of women

[M.Dancer]

"No that is how asymetrical warfiare is done and why it is considered illegal is precisely why so many civilians get killed."

Illegal? Don't tell me you suddenly care about pesky things such as international law all of a sudden.

Next thing you know, you'll think that the Geneva conventions is a relevant document.

"When guerillas fought the germans in Yugoslavia, they wore identifying marks and holed themselves up in the mountains and fought the germans there. When the Philipinos fought the Japanese, they did it in the jungles..."

Great examples from seventy years ago.

The key difference is that in 1942, neither the Japanese nor the Germans had F-15's with heat-seeking missiles etc etc.

"Of course, those men we can call brave...."

I know you think the guy in Tel Aviv controlling the drones to kill militants and civilians is brave.

And no doubt, the guys launching missiles from 200 km away are very brave.

Wikileaks certainly gave us a great video to demonstrate just how brave those US soldiers are.

According to you, the only way a Palestinian can fight bravely is if he wears a uniform and stands out in a field with a big target on his head, to get shot down by a drone.

Like I say, anytime the cowardly IDF child-killers want to fight without their weapons, I guarantee you that there are plenty of Arabs who would love to step up. But we all know that Israel doesn't want a fair fight.

when the plaestinians do it it is behind the dresses of women

Not sure I can respond point by point to this dog's breakfast...

If you care about civilian casualties, you would condemn asymetrical warfare.

I do not want the palestinians to wear a uniform with a target...I want them to talk peace.

Whether it is 70 years ago, or today, the laws and the reason for the laws have not changed, at a certain point you have to admit defeat...instead the palestinians wage war against lunch stands, recruiting the intellectually weak to strap on bombs and kill themselves and other women and children.

War isn't about fighting as equals, that a fallacy foisted by the feverishly foolish.

It's time the arabs giot their collective heads out of the sand. They started a war in 48. They lost. Get over it.

[DogOnPorch]

Not sure I can respond point by point to this dog's breakfast...

If you care about civilian casualties, you would condemn asymetrical warfare.

I do not want the palestinians to wear a uniform with a target...I want them to talk peace.

Whether it is 70 years ago, or today, the laws and the reason for the laws have not changed, at a certain point you have to admit defeat...instead the palestinians wage war against lunch stands, recruiting the intellectually weak to strap on bombs and kill themselves and other women and children.

War isn't about fighting as equals, that a fallacy foisted by the feverishly foolish.

It's time the arabs giot their collective heads out of the sand. They started a war in 48. They lost. Get over it.

Yup.

[Rue]

but of course, sometimes it's impossible to stop all news from getting out. no matter how much israel tries...

Your lack of credibility shows with the above words. Provide the proof for the above statement. Show proof the state of Israel censors its press let alone freedom of speech within Israel.

I would suggest you fabricated the above-you tossed out a subjective assumption because of your anti-Israel bias.

No one is asking you to support Israel or agree with its policies but making such comments are pointless.

The Israeli press is volatile and openly, daily, by the minute, challenging and criticizing each and everything its government does. Pick up an Israeli newspaper. Listen to its radio and t.v. shows. The press is hardly censored. It is a constant fire that burns.

There are hundreds of human rights organizations, interest groups and political groups in Israel that openly challenge and criticize its government and initiate law suits in its courts.

IDF soldiers have been sued in civil as well as military courts.

Your knee jerk reaction suggesting Israel can not handle opposition or allow it is an absolute crock.

Here is the issue. There is we all concede the APPEARANCE OF a conflict of interest if the IDF investigates itself.

This is the same arguement people make about the police investigating themselves.

That is one issue.

However to automatically infer as you have that the IDF is bias without proof simply because it investigated itself is as baseless as making statements such as the press is not free in Israel and the government represses free speech.

If you bothered to investigate the IDF it would dawn on you it is a civilian army. This means its soldiers are all civilians-many openly challenge and criticize their armed forces and do so openly and join groups to do so.

Israel is a tiny nation that depends on every citizen from 18 to 65 to be on call. How long do you think

a civilian armed force could survive if you tried to take all its soldiers and tried to shut them up? You even think that is possible? Soldiers go back to work. They go back to school. They talk. Everyone knows someone who has died, been injured and has served in the armed forces.

No you do not understand the IDF or how it deals with its soldier. You do not understand how on the street level its soldiers talk and discuss and challenge and question.

You assume you do.

You want to send someone genuinely neutral to investigate go on...who will you send-the UN? Human Rights Watch? Amnesty International? The Red Cross? Right.

Why don't you go research those agencies and organizations that claimed to investigate the conduct of the IDF who were not from Israel and see how partial they were and how they all violated basic protocols to assure neutrality when obtaining info and how they relied on unsubstantiated second hand untested testimonials.

Go find out how some of these agencies openly admitted their errors and biases.

You want to talk about anything the UN has produced in the last 10 years may I suggest you actually read it and find out the protocols that were NOT followed during the investigations.

Now I can't wait for your proof that the state of Israel censors freedom of speech of the press, how the court system has not awarded damages to civilians suing the IDF,how the IDF has the entire country under lcok down from speaking.

Can't wait.

By the way find someone genuinely neutral and I would agree with you 100%

having them investigate would be of help to clear the air.

By the way who will investigate Hamas or the links the current

Turkish government has with Hamas and funding it and the organization

whose members it deliberately allowed onto Turkish boats who

the Turkish government new had planned an armed confrontation.

who investigates that? You? Moe Ghaddafi? I mean after all he was the

Chair of the UN Human Rights council was he not? He sounds like a

distinguished senior spokesperson..

Excuse me but just once I would like someone who criticizes Israel

to actually propose someone neutral investigate them.

Just once.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Rue

[KeyStone]

"Excuse me but just once I would like someone who criticizes Israel

to actually propose someone neutral investigate them. Just once"

Why? So you could suggest that whatever organization that gets tapped to do the investigation is not neutral and is actually against Israel? We all know very well that no matter what organization is suggested, the defenders of Israel will always accuse any organization of anti-semitism. There will always be some link with five degrees of separation that will be proof enough. Otherwise, any organization that has been critical of anything Israel has done in the past, immediately loses credibility.

Just once, I would like to see someone who defends Israel actually allow someone neutral to investigate without declaring them anti-semitic before the investigation has actually occured. Unfortunately, the supporters of Israel actually believe that the IDF is the only neutral organization in the world. Just once.

Edited October 28, 2010 by KeyStone

[jbg]

Not sure I can respond point by point to this dog's breakfast...

I'll try.

"So you're saying it's O.K. for Israel's opponents to fight asymetrically but if Israel kills any civilians in an attack aimed primarily at military targets it's offensive? You'll have to explain that."

I suggest you learn how to use the "Reply With Quote" feature or you'll seem to be agreeing with me.

Israel likes to make the rules of what is fair, and what is not fair.

At least one can determine who Israel's elected leaders are. Ever try figuring out who has authority at Hamas?

According to Israel, the fair ways for the Palestinians to fight would be to wear uniforms, and march in a nice little line, far away from any civilians. The response to this would be for Israel to decimate them with billion dollar warplanes. They really don't have any choice but to blend in with the civilian population. This is how guerilla warfare is done. This is why Vietnam was such a problem for the US.

The reason that the rules of warfare have always barred fighters fighting in civilian clothes is the danger that it puts the civilian population in. Even if the Palestinian "fighters" at a particular moment are blended into their own population their being out of uniform makes everyone a target.

If Israel wants the Palestinians to fight fair, then put down the billion dollar warplanes, and the drones, and the thousand dollar guns, and the nightvision goggles, and the tanks. I can assure you that Palestinians would love to fight the IDF barehanded. Would the IDF be willing to do the same? Of course not. They would prefer to use drones to kill Palestinians.

Once upon a time a party wishing to "fight" had to ascertain whether it had the human and material resources to wage a battle. Not everyone does.

As for the killing of civilians, Israel kills far more Palestinians civilians than Palestians kill Israeli civilians.

Israel kills far more children than Palestinians. So what if the missile was intended for a terrorist. What if the Palestinians made some crude attempt to target IDF in Israel? And if they missed and hit a school, or a bunch of civilians - oh well, at least they are trying to hit the IDF child-killers, so I guess that makes it OK? Would that appease your sense of need to be trying to target the military?

I don't think the Palestinians are even attempting to reach military targets. What is signally true about Israeli efforts is how few uninvolved civilians are harmed. They don't detonate 1000 lb. bombs (such as the one used to kill Bashir Jemayal in Lebanon) that wind up taking untold numbers of other people with them.

Besides which, it doesn't seem to make a difference if Palestine targets the IDF child-killers or civilians. When they kidnapped the IDF child-killer Gilad Shalit, Israel still responded by bombing civilian populations, did they not?

Which child or children did Gilad Shalit kill? Is he being held in Geneva-convention compliant conditions?

Whether you or Israel choose to admit it or not, Israel engages in collective punishment of Palestinians.

When they can not figure out who is responsible for a missile attack, they do not just throw up their hands and say: 'Darn, I guess they win this round' - they reciprocate against whoever is convenient, fully aware that many civilians will get hurt or killed along the way. That is how they play the game, regardless of their 'intentions' to go after terrorists.

Israel believes that because they are superior militarily, that the Palestinians must accept peace under the terms that Israel offers them. They believe that Palestinians should not be able to leverage any power through military means, and that they have the right to reciprocate tenfold, even if that reciprocation is not accurately directed at the right targets.

Again, maybe warfare isn't fair. Perhaps parties need to evaluate their ability to wage war rather than kill at random and go crying to the news media and the U.N. when the inevitable retaliation hits.

[DogOnPorch]

Hamas supporters crying about the lack of 'fairness' in their war with Israel makes about as much sense as the Japanese complaining that the USN had way too many aircraft carriers circa 1944.

Edited October 28, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[GostHacked]

Your lack of credibility shows with the above words. Provide the proof for the above statement. Show proof the state of Israel censors its press let alone freedom of speech within Israel.

Israel censors the press, .. hell every industrialized nation that has news media of some kind is sanitized and censored. It happens everywhere.

The Israeli press is volatile and openly, daily, by the minute, challenging and criticizing each and everything its government does. Pick up an Israeli newspaper. Listen to its radio and t.v. shows. The press is hardly censored. It is a constant fire that burns.

Maybe not so censored but I'd say manipulated to generate a frame of mind. It happens everywhere now.

[M.Dancer]

Israel censors the press, .. hell every industrialized nation that has news media of some kind is sanitized and censored. It happens everywhere.

I would like to see some prrof as well.

Maybe not so censored but I'd say manipulated to generate a frame of mind. It happens everywhere now.

Like say, what Greenpeace does. or the Liberla party, or the PLO, or Canadian Tire? Everyone can have access to journalists to attempt to convey their point of view. It's a free market.

[KeyStone]

At least one can determine who Israel's elected leaders are. Ever try figuring out who has authority at Hamas?

So democracy=good, non-democracy=bad. Therefore Israel=good.

Is that your logic? If not, please explain the relevance.

The reason that the rules of warfare have always barred fighters fighting in civilian clothes is the danger that it puts the civilian population in. Even if the Palestinian "fighters" at a particular moment are blended into their own population their being out of uniform makes everyone a target.

Allow me to paraphrase. Palestinian militants should make it easy for the IDF to track them down and kill them after they launch rockets. If they do not, Israel should have the right to kill as many civilians as it needs to, as long as they are 'trying' to kill the terrorists.

Let's put that in a North American setting. Some black people killed a white woman. Therefore, the black people should identify themselves, so we can punish them. If they do not, we have the right to demolish an entire area where black people live. If innocent black people die in the process, it is the fault of the black killers.

Once upon a time a party wishing to "fight" had to ascertain whether it had the human and material resources to wage a battle. Not everyone does.

So, you are suggesting that if People A have superior military to People B, People B should not have any rights or recourse if People A do not treat them fairly.

I don't think the Palestinians are even attempting to reach military targets.

No, they are not. They don't even have the capability. Perhaps we should give them the ability to shootdown unmanned drones, and direct their missiles into military areas? Would that make things better?

But for the sake of argument, let's say that they were aiming at military targets with their crude targeting. Would that make a difference, or would the results(ratio of civilians killed to military) have to be different.

What is signally true about Israeli efforts is how few uninvolved civilians are harmed.

Hmm, statistics would say otherwise:

Civilian Casualties

I am sure that we can bicker over the meaning of uninvolved.

They don't detonate 1000 lb. bombs (such as the one used to kill Bashir Jemayal in Lebanon) that wind up taking untold numbers of other people with them.

Truly remarkable. I suppose they don't use white phosphorous or depleted uranium either?

Which child or children did Gilad Shalit kill?

He was a member of the IDF. As such he is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Palestinian children.

Similarly, members of Hamas and Hezbollah are responsible for the deaths of dozens of Israeli children.

Is he being held in Geneva-convention compliant conditions?

No, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Or had you not heard?

Surely, we can hold Israel to a higher standard than a terrorist organization.

If your intention is to exonerate Israel by showing them to be better than Hamas, then you do Israel an injustice.

Again, maybe warfare isn't fair. Perhaps parties need to evaluate their ability to wage war rather than kill at random and go crying to the news media and the U.N. when the inevitable retaliation hits.

Do you know that Israel and the US blocked a UN resolution to investigate the conditions in Palestine?

Do you know that Israel blocked all media during the most recent incursion into Palestine?

What options do you think they have when all normal channels of change are blocked by Israel?

As JFK said, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable"

We know full well that Israel is mightier, but the Arab people have a proud, defiant spirit, and they will fight to the death against impossible odds rather than accept perceived injustice.

If you really want peace:

1) Make peaceful revolution possible.

2) Administer collective punishment and rewards in a transparent manner such that all of Palestine works against missile attacks

3) Stop allowing the extremists to undermine the peace process and stay the course.

[KeyStone]

Hamas supporters crying about the lack of 'fairness' in their war with Israel makes about as much sense as the Japanese complaining that the USN had way too many aircraft carriers circa 1944.

Wow! I haven't seen a strawman torn apart so badly since the flying monkeys took apart the scarecrow in Wizard of Oz.

There is a significant difference between 'crying about fairness' and explaining why Hamas fighters don't march in a neat little line in open field with flashing green lights to make it easy for the Israeli drones to annihilate them.

If anyone cries about fairness, it's Israel, which is why it's all so absurd.