Mayday mayday

[PIK]

http://www.lowellgreen.com/Home_Page.html Edited September 27, 2010 by PIK

[M.Dancer]

http://www.lowellgreen.com/Home_Page.html

Funny, some claims they are Canada's most honored (sic) braodcaster, yet references bout thses honors (sic) are hard to find...

[guyser]

http://www.lowellgreen.com/Home_Page.html

Why?

That aside, why bother with hyperbole the likes of this....

"This is the most important book I have ever written. And, just as importantly, everyone should know there are solutions that do not involve opening the floodgates to millions of people who have no appreciation of Canadian values."

Millions? Ha !

[Argus]

Why?

That aside, why bother with hyperbole the likes of this....

"This is the most important book I have ever written. And, just as importantly, everyone should know there are solutions that do not involve opening the floodgates to millions of people who have no appreciation of Canadian values."

Millions? Ha !

We have brought in millions of immigrants in the past decade, have we not?

[Shwa]

We have brought in millions of immigrants in the past decade, have we not?

Yes we have! Mostly because of people who have an appreciation of Canadian values.

[guyser]

We have brought in millions of immigrants in the past decade, have we not?

In the past ten years , yes.

But there is more in his statement than that.

[PIK]

Try about 700,000 a year. This book is going to blow the myths about immigration.And I am one that is tired of paying for it. We were building a great country here, but not anymore ,we are becoming a global 3rd world village. It is time for people NOT TO BE SCARED to talk about this. It has been a great liberal coup setting this up in a way that if you disagree with it , you are labeled a racist and bigot.

[M.Dancer]

Try about 700,000 a year. This book is going to blow the myths about immigration.And I am one that is tired of paying for it. We were building a great country here, but not anymore ,we are becoming a global 3rd world village. It is time for people NOT TO BE SCARED to talk about this. It has been a great liberal coup setting this up in a way that if you disagree with it , you are labeled a racist and bigot.

Actually, try about 250,000 a year....

In 2008, there were 65,567 immigrants in the family class, 21,860 refugees, and 149,072 economic immigrants amongst the 247,243 total immigrants to the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Canada

If you disagree with that, you are labelled a tinfoil hat aficionado

[RNG]

A few years ago I read a column, probably in the Calgary Herald which explained the rational the immigration board, in conjunction with other government departments used to set immigration levels. And basically it explained that Canada need the immigration. The existing Canadian population isn't having enough children to finance the support of our aging population so we need the immigrants to work, pay taxes and make new taxpayers for us. I don't have any hard numbers, but remember at the time that it made all kinds of sense to me.

[Michael Hardner]

Try about 700,000 a year. This book is going to blow the myths about immigration.And I am one that is tired of paying for it. We were building a great country here, but not anymore ,we are becoming a global 3rd world village. It is time for people NOT TO BE SCARED to talk about this. It has been a great liberal coup setting this up in a way that if you disagree with it , you are labeled a racist and bigot.

Right... so Harper is a coward is what you're saying.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2009/permanent/index.asp

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2009/temporary/29.asp

252,179 permanent residents, 33,161 refugees.

700,000 ?

[Argus]

A few years ago I read a column, probably in the Calgary Herald which explained the rational the immigration board, in conjunction with other government departments used to set immigration levels. And basically it explained that Canada need the immigration. The existing Canadian population isn't having enough children to finance the support of our aging population so we need the immigrants to work, pay taxes and make new taxpayers for us. I don't have any hard numbers, but remember at the time that it made all kinds of sense to me.

Well... yeah, and if they had any hard numbers it might make sense to me too. Unfortunately, the numbers are against them. You can double the immigrant intake and it won't do a thing about our aging population. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. Why? Because most of our immigrants are about the same age as the Canadian population at large. Also, a very big chunk of the immigrants we're bringing in now aren't paying taxes, and probably will never pay taxes. They're poor and working poor. Neither group pays taxes so much as consumes services. Don't get me wrong. We need taxi drivers, security guards, cleaning staff and dishwashers. But those people aren't going to pay for the pension of old people.

[Argus]

Right... so Harper is a coward is what you're saying.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2009/permanent/index.asp

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2009/temporary/29.asp

252,179 permanent residents, 33,161 refugees.

700,000 ?

I don't know where he gets the numbers from but yes, Harper is absolutely a coward on this issue. He's desperately afraid of being accused of prejudice or racism for "discriminating against" non-white immigrants - who often don't pay any taxes. And he's desperately determined to try and get the immigrants to vote Conservative for a change, and abandon the Liberals. But we know that Harper has long ago abandoned most ideological policies in favour of whatever will get votes.

From one of my previous posts on this subject:

The federal government justifies large-scale immigration on the basis that it is essential to economic growth as well as to offset the aging of the population and the increasing proportion of retired persons to workers. These rationales, however, are not based on facts. The government's own research indicates that immigration and population increases play a role at best in economic growth. It is equally clear that only overwhelming levels of immigration would have any significant effect on reducing the aging of the population and avoiding higher dependency ratios and that there are much more practical ways of dealing with these issues than through immigration. Similarly, the government's claim that we require immigration in order to cope with an anticipated shortage of skilled workers is of questionable validity. - Martin Collacott

This is from another of my previous posts:

As to immigration, let me enlighten you on a couple of things. First, the average age of immigrants is only about 2 years less than the average age of Canadians. So the suggestion made by many that an aging population needs immigrants is irrelevant. If the immigrants we took in were very young, perhaps - but they're not. So immigration is not going to be the solution to an aging population.

Second, demographic data shows that even if Canada cut back immigration to only 100k per year (currently it is about 230k) our population would continue to grow. If we halted ALL immigration entirely, then our population would ever so slowly begin to decline. How slowly? In thirty years, when all the boomers are dead, our population would be down by about 250k - about 0.6%. Big deal. That's with ZERO immigration.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Argus

[charter.rights]

Try about 700,000 a year. This book is going to blow the myths about immigration.And I am one that is tired of paying for it. We were building a great country here, but not anymore ,we are becoming a global 3rd world village. It is time for people NOT TO BE SCARED to talk about this. It has been a great liberal coup setting this up in a way that if you disagree with it , you are labeled a racist and bigot.

The unfortunate reality is that we are going to have to double the immigration rate in the next 5 years just to keep the deficit under control. The Conservatives have spent the farm and the only way we are going keep it is if we can afford it....and we can't afford it unless there are lots more of us paying for it.

[Michael Hardner]

But we know that Harper has long ago abandoned most ideological policies in favour of whatever will get votes.

Which ideology though ? He was baptized an economist before he converted.

[Wild Bill]

This is one of those topics where it is almost impossible to have a civil and informed discourse. That's because it it too easy for some to turn it into discrimination against minorities or immigrants in general.

Most of that is just sensationalist rubbish. Still, when you blow away the chaff there are some kernels of truth that we should recognize and deal with.

First of all, while it is true that this country was built by immigrants, not all immigrants are the same. Sources of immigrants change over the years. The typical immigrant of today is NOT likely to be from the same countries and culture as those who came over after the First and Second World Wars.

My father-in-law came over from Italy in 1950. War torn Europe was full of people facing a bleak situation at home and willing to come to Canada for a chance at a new life. They spoke a different language but their cultures had a lot of similarities to our own. They were likely Christian, educated in a common history and familiar with a common technology. They could find jobs over here and fit in quickly.

Those days are long gone. Only a few folks from those countries are interested today in moving to Canada. Instead, we are forced to look mostly to the Third World. Many of these countries are essentially primitive, by our standards! Not just in basic education but in lacking much of our culture. Using waste receptacles on the streets or hell, even using toilet paper! They may have little or nothing in common with our history. Basic skills that we who grew up here take for granted, like simple house wiring or backyard mechanics, are a cosmic mystery to them. In their home country they may have had no electric lights. Automobiles were for the privileged few.

It is much harder to integrate such people into mainstream Canadian culture. Even in construction, the traditional entry path for an immigrant, they require much more basic training. Given a chance, they could eventually do as well as anyone else. There is no reason to think they are any more or less intelligent. It's just that they cost more to educate to get them to a level where they are useful to an employer.

Not all immigrants today are doctors or engineers. There weren't that many in the 1950's, either! Most immigrants are just ordinary folks, looking for a chance to get ahead. Our problem today is with the quality of those ordinary folks. It's no disgrace to be born a Somalian but the odds are a Somalian immigrant lacks the carpentry skills of my Italian father-in-law.

The 20th century belonged to the First World, to Europe, to Japan, to North and parts of South America. Technologies like radio and transportation had unified these countries. Information was shared and incorporated into every country's culture. Now we're in the 21st Century and many of those cultures will certainly catch up and perhaps even surpass us!

Still, they're not there today!

Look at the scandal with India and the Commonwealth Games. They're ready to open the games and the place is a disgrace! The living quarters aren't even sanitary! What people don't want to face is that such situations are NORMAL for India! Since Britain pulled out and gave them independence nothing works. They can't make the utilities reliable or the trains run on time. In vast areas of the country its a miracle if the water keeps flowing from the taps.

What HAVE they accomplished in those 50 years? Well, they got themselves the nuclear bomb! Millions of their people live in squalor but hey! They've got the Nuke! They're in the big boy's club!

We should either re-examine how many immigrants we actually need, particularly during periods of high unemployment anyways or put up a lot more money into helping those immigrants from more primitive cultures assimilate. That doesn't just mean teaching them how to wire up a rec room in a basement. It means teaching them Canadian values like using street garbage cans. There was a time when Toronto was known around the world as incredibly clean! Tourists, especially Americans, were amazed.

Why is that no longer true? What changed?

We also have different kinds of immigrants today because of the ratio of regular immigrants and those brought in under "Family Reunification". My father-in-law was allowed to sponsor his wife and his infant son. Today, it was decided that for lack of a common definition of "immediate family" we would use the definition from the culture of the applicant! So if he said that a second cousin on his mother's side was "immediate family" then "Wham!" Down comes the approval stamp!

This might not seem like that big a deal if that second cousin was a whiz at running a bulldozer. Unfortunately, family reunification is usually used to bring over grandparents and elderly relations. Not many of these find jobs in construction to become part of the immigrants that "built this country!"

No doubt there are some members who will take my words to mean that we should only accept European imigrants. Some of those sadly would cheer such an idea for racist reasons. Before they start cheering however they should consider that we CAN"T get all our immigrants from Europe! There aren't that many Europeans that WANT to come to Canada! Things are just fine for them where they are!

We can argue if we are taking too many or too few immigrants right now but most would agree that we have to have at least a certain minimum number. We simply can't be as picky as we'd like about where we find them.

That leaves us only a few options. We still will likely have to take most of them from those more primitive countries. We can get a bit more rational about family reunification but we will also have to spend more resources on helping those immigrants integrate into our culture. No doubt this will cause the multiculturalism fanatics conniption fits but that's another argument.

[PIK]

Actually, try about 250,000 a year....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Canada

If you disagree with that, you are labelled a tinfoil hat aficionado

I am talking immigration refugee system and workers , 700,000 a year. Read the book, it is coming out now. Or how about being deported and they are still fighting it in courts 20 years later and at what cost. Edited September 27, 2010 by PIK

[Michael Hardner]

I am talking immigration refugee system and workers , 700,000 a year. Read the book, it is coming out now. Or how about being deported and they are still fighting it in courts 20 years later and at what cost.

Hit the link, PIK, it's not that much.

[Argus]

The unfortunate reality is that we are going to have to double the immigration rate in the next 5 years just to keep the deficit under control.

Utter drivel.

[Argus]

No doubt there are some members who will take my words to mean that we should only accept European imigrants. Some of those sadly would cheer such an idea for racist reasons. Before they start cheering however they should consider that we CAN"T get all our immigrants from Europe! There aren't that many Europeans that WANT to come to Canada! Things are just fine for them where they are!

There are tons of people in eastern Europe who would love to emigrate to Canada if they had a chance. But we don't actually try to recruit people any more. We just let them come to us. And most of those coming here are the relatives of those who came here over the last ten and twenty years - which means primarily people from Asia, the Caribbean and the middle and far east.

[Shwa]

This is one of those topics where it is almost impossible to have a civil and informed discourse. That's because it it too easy for some to turn it into discrimination against minorities or immigrants in general.

It is also easy for some to turn immigration into a threat against the majority, wouldn't you say?

Most of that is just sensationalist rubbish. Still, when you blow away the chaff there are some kernels of truth that we should recognize and deal with.

How do you define sensationalist rubbish and does it work both ways? Because you seem to be only advocating one side only, and hoping for a civil and informed discourse.

First of all, while it is true that this country was built by immigrants, not all immigrants are the same. Sources of immigrants change over the years. The typical immigrant of today is NOT likely to be from the same countries and culture as those who came over after the First and Second World Wars.

Fair enough, but it is incumbent for you to generalize on an even basis, meaning that you include all the Chinese, Americans, French, British (and other Europeans) when we say the word "immigrant." Fair enough? Now look at the charts that have already been provided, but which I will provide hereas a courtsey.

By the way, if you want a picture of the typical immigrant, choose Chinese or European.

My father-in-law came over from Italy in 1950. War torn Europe was full of people facing a bleak situation at home and willing to come to Canada for a chance at a new life. They spoke a different language but their cultures had a lot of similarities to our own. They were likely Christian, educated in a common history and familiar with a common technology. They could find jobs over here and fit in quickly.

Most immigrants today are the same. Couple with the advances in learning technologies, assimilation has a far better chance at success than a wood worker 60 years ago. See this table for more information about skills and occupations in the immigrant population.

Those days are long gone. Only a few folks from those countries are interested today in moving to Canada. Instead, we are forced to look mostly to the Third World. Many of these countries are essentially primitive, by our standards! Not just in basic education but in lacking much of our culture. Using waste receptacles on the streets or hell, even using toilet paper! They may have little or nothing in common with our history. Basic skills that we who grew up here take for granted, like simple house wiring or backyard mechanics, are a cosmic mystery to them. In their home country they may have had no electric lights. Automobiles were for the privileged few.

Wrong. See table above.

It is much harder to integrate such people into mainstream Canadian culture. Even in construction, the traditional entry path for an immigrant, they require much more basic training. Given a chance, they could eventually do as well as anyone else. There is no reason to think they are any more or less intelligent. It's just that they cost more to educate to get them to a level where they are useful to an employer.

Wrong. See table above.

Not all immigrants today are doctors or engineers. There weren't that many in the 1950's, either! Most immigrants are just ordinary folks, looking for a chance to get ahead. Our problem today is with the quality of those ordinary folks. It's no disgrace to be born a Somalian but the odds are a Somalian immigrant lacks the carpentry skills of my Italian father-in-law.

Not all 1950's immigrants were jewels thus your reference to a specific group is neither here nor there.

The 20th century belonged to the First World, to Europe, to Japan, to North and parts of South America. Technologies like radio and transportation had unified these countries. Information was shared and incorporated into every country's culture. Now we're in the 21st Century and many of those cultures will certainly catch up and perhaps even surpass us!

Still, they're not there today!

Wrong. See table above.

Look at the scandal with India and the Commonwealth Games. They're ready to open the games and the place is a disgrace! The living quarters aren't even sanitary! What people don't want to face is that such situations are NORMAL for India! Since Britain pulled out and gave them independence nothing works. They can't make the utilities reliable or the trains run on time. In vast areas of the country its a miracle if the water keeps flowing from the taps.

Specific reference that is neither here nor there nor even relevant.

What HAVE they accomplished in those 50 years? Well, they got themselves the nuclear bomb! Millions of their people live in squalor but hey! They've got the Nuke! They're in the big boy's club!

You need to educate yourself on India.

We should either re-examine how many immigrants we actually need, particularly during periods of high unemployment anyways or put up a lot more money into helping those immigrants from more primitive cultures assimilate. That doesn't just mean teaching them how to wire up a rec room in a basement. It means teaching them Canadian values like using street garbage cans. There was a time when Toronto was known around the world as incredibly clean! Tourists, especially Americans, were amazed.

France, Britain, the USA or Chine as "primitive cultures?" Wrong.

Why is that no longer true? What changed?

We also have different kinds of immigrants today because of the ratio of regular immigrants and those brought in under "Family Reunification". My father-in-law was allowed to sponsor his wife and his infant son. Today, it was decided that for lack of a common definition of "immediate family" we would use the definition from the culture of the applicant! So if he said that a second cousin on his mother's side was "immediate family" then "Wham!" Down comes the approval stamp!

You need to educate yourself - even a little - about our immigration system.

This might not seem like that big a deal if that second cousin was a whiz at running a bulldozer. Unfortunately, family reunification is usually used to bring over grandparents and elderly relations. Not many of these find jobs in construction to become part of the immigrants that "built this country!"

As long as they support their family - and pay taxes - who cares. Neither here nor there.

No doubt there are some members who will take my words to mean that we should only accept European imigrants. Some of those sadly would cheer such an idea for racist reasons. Before they start cheering however they should consider that we CAN"T get all our immigrants from Europe! There aren't that many Europeans that WANT to come to Canada! Things are just fine for them where they are!

Wrong. Do the math on the table above and realize that you don't know what you are talking about.

We can argue if we are taking too many or too few immigrants right now but most would agree that we have to have at least a certain minimum number. We simply can't be as picky as we'd like about where we find them.

Oh yes we can and often do. Take a moment to acquaint yourself with the Canadian immigration system.

That leaves us only a few options. We still will likely have to take most of them from those more primitive countries. We can get a bit more rational about family reunification but we will also have to spend more resources on helping those immigrants integrate into our culture. No doubt this will cause the multiculturalism fanatics conniption fits but that's another argument.

So what's your problem then?? We are not spending enough on ESL classes??

[with_distinction]

Who cares if more people come in. Nationalism is as stupid as religion. There is no such thing as culture either, merely a social construct. Once you get over these basic concepts, you will soon realize we can live in peace without your meaningless rants and raves of ignorance and hatred.

[RNG]

Who cares if more people come in. Nationalism is as stupid as religion. There is no such thing as culture either, merely a social construct. Once you get over these basic concepts, you will soon realize we can live in peace without your meaningless rants and raves of ignorance and hatred.

So you're really looking forward to Sharia law being imposed in parts of Ontario?

[GostHacked]

So you're really looking forward to Sharia law being imposed in parts of Ontario?

That problem has already been solved. Sharia won't become part of the 'landscape' here in Canada.

[with_distinction]

So you're really looking forward to Sharia law being imposed in parts of Ontario?

Yes.

[g_bambino]

There is no such thing as culture either, merely a social construct. Once you get over these basic concepts, you will soon realize we can live in peace without your meaningless rants and raves of ignorance and hatred.

Yes, culture is a social construct; but societies are also cultural; the two cannot be separated. So, if you wish to eliminate culture, you'll have to first destroy all society. Will you be off to live alone in a cave so that we may see a demonstration of enlightenment and love?