Who is/was more divisive: Harper or Trudeau?

[Alta4ever]

Hillbilly quip aside,where is he wrong about the province being run by the oil industry?

Where did wyly say that, Jack?

[capricorn]

Of course Trudeau was divisive.... but he won majority governments on several occasions. So how does someone who is as divisive as people claim Trudeau was win the majority of seats in parliament?

I would say that, although he was divisive in some respects, this trait has been over-stated. Obviously something else over-shadowed his divisiveness to allow him to be called one of the greatest PM's in Canada's history... Charisma? Government policies? Aggressiveness? His divisive nature was a distant 4th to his other traits....

That's easy to answer. It's because Trudeau gave the unions and public servants everything they wanted. Trudeau got my vote simply because, as a federal worker, I was getting pay increases of 10 to 14 percent every year and tons of benefits. Mind you I was in my late teens at the time and didn't see past the next paycheque. Then he created so many regional development programs they were coming out our ying-yangs. Trudeau never saw a social program he didn't like and the resulting debt proves it.

Harper cannot win a majority government even though his opposition is split (with 2 "left leaning" parties and the Libs were in a shambles after the scandals that occured while they formed government.

You forget that the wild card is the Bloc. We can't know if Harper would have won a majority without the Bloc around.

A good example of the way Harper governs is the decision to get rid of the Veteran's Ombudsman who was critical of the government. Harper's divisiveness is the first thing people will think of... that will be his legacy.

Harper is not abolishing the position. If Stogran's term is up, the government has the right to replace him. For years, governments of all stripes have replaced officials after their terms expire. Yes Stogran has been critical of the government and for good reason I think. But improvements are being made for our vets which means the government has taken the criticism seriously. But that doesn't take away the right of the government to let his term expire.

[August1991]

I was neutral towards PET in the beginning, he added some flare to our politics which was good, I can't say I cared for him at the end...I disliked Mulroney but I absolutely despise Harper...

Pms I like Lester B...Jean C. was funny...Joe C could have been good but he bumbled...too bad about Martin we'll never know...

So, your measure of a PM is whether they are "funny" or not. It seems to me that you judge politicians based on your "feelings" for them. Do you make other important practical decisions in your life the same way?

[Jack Weber]

Where did wyly say that, Jack?

He said half the voters in Alberta are either Hillbillies,religious nuterrs etc...

The other half " are in the oil business and are worried about their jobs"...Perhaps that was'nt descriptive enough because I would have added that it seems that populous of that province knows good and well that without oil it's a dust bowl,and most inhabitants will vote along the lines of whatever the Oil Industry wants...Add in the continuing paranoia and animosity over all things Eastern Canada and we get the firewalling Reformers from Alberta in Ottawa...

Is that about right?

[Alta4ever]

Wyly

half of Alberta's conservative support comes from racists, uneducated hillbillies, and religious nuts, the other half are in the oil business and are only worried about their jobs...assure the latter their oil jobs/income are is and conservative support will fall away...

Jack Weber

Hillbilly quip aside,where is he wrong about the province being run by the oil industry?

Jack where in that post from wyly does he say that the province is run by the oil industry, wyly is talking about where he believes the CPC support is coming from in the province of alberta.

[Jack Weber]

Wyly

Jack Weber

Jack where in that post from wyly does he say that the province is run by the oil industry, wyly is talking about where he believes the CPC support is coming from in the province of alberta.

Do you,or do you not feel that since the oil and gas industry is not only the one of the largest employers in Alberta,but it's prime economic driver,that most of the inhabitants of that province would vote for the party that would give said industry multiple paths of least resistance?

[Alta4ever]

Do you,or do you not feel that since the oil and gas industry is not only the one of the largest employers in Alberta,but it's prime economic driver,that most of the inhabitants of that province would vote for the party that would give said industry multiple paths of least resistance?

So in all the rude behaviour is this your attempt at covering up that you were wrong wyly did not say in that post that the province was being run by oil?

Edited September 26, 2010 by Alta4ever

[ReeferMadness]

They're both divisive in their own way but that's where the comparison ends. Trudeau was a leader who was capable of inspiring people. He was an intellectual (remember when that was a good thing?) whose main failing was impatience and disdain for people who couldn't or wouldn't share in his vision.

Harper doesn't even try to be a leader. His handlers focus on portraying him as a competent manager. If the Liberals could come up with a modern day Trudeau today, he would show Harper for the petty, manipulative weasel he is. Harper is a wannabe-westerner who is just too pathetic for words.

Edited September 26, 2010 by ReeferMadness

[Shwa]

That's easy to answer. It's because Trudeau gave the unions and public servants everything they wanted. Trudeau got my vote simply because, as a federal worker, I was getting pay increases of 10 to 14 percent every year and tons of benefits.

If you don't mind, what years were you getting 10 to 14 percent and what sector of the public service were you in?

Mind you I was in my late teens at the time and didn't see past the next paycheque. Then he created so many regional development programs they were coming out our ying-yangs. Trudeau never saw a social program he didn't like and the resulting debt proves it.

Do you recall the size of the debt and to whom it was owed?

[RNG]

Harper by far. Trudeau was PM through many years of difficult times much more difficult then anything Harper will likely face. Harper is really just an American patsy. Harper has even bragged about watching American news rather than Canadian news. Harper is like a dog on a leash beside his American master.

Let me guess, either a Torontonian or Quebecois NDP'er. Harper just lost my vote a little while ago, but Trudeau sucks brontasaurus.

[capricorn]

If you don't mind, what years were you getting 10 to 14 percent and what sector of the public service were you in?

I joined the public service in 1964 at the age of eighteen, prior to the existence of the Public Service Staff Relations Act, ie, prior to collective bargaining. I started out as a CR 1 (Clerk level 1) which was pretty well the bottom of the totem pole. I joined in what was then known as the Unemployment Insurance Commission. UIC was then merged with the Department of Manpower, which in turn became Manpower and Immigration, which became Employment and Immigration. In those years, public service reorganizations took place every 10 years or so.

In those days, you needn't have a degree to get hired. Public service growth was in high gear and they pretty much hired anyone who applied. To be promoted, you needed to be what was called a self-starter (a person who is strongly motivated and shows initiative, esp at work). With hard work, I rose to the managerial level in spite of the fact I dropped out of school in grade 10. In the intervening years, I studied at the U of O as a mature student and received my degree in Business Administration. While we're on my cv, after 20 years in the public service I left and took a position with the Public Service Alliance of Canada. Fifteen years later, I retired.

Now as to the big pay raises. In 1966, public servants were granted collective bargaining rights. Trudeau was elected in 1968 and soon after, Treasury Board was negotiating agreements giving public servants very lucrative pay raises, no kidding in the double digits. IIRC, this continued until the mid-70s when it became evident the Treasury could not sustain the out of control growth of the public service and the monumental compensation packages. As a result, in the mid 70s the size of the public service was reduced, wage and price controls were introduced, and compensation packages took a nose dive.

You might be interested in the historical timeline contained in this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Service_of_Canada

Do you recall the size of the debt and to whom it was owed?

No. I remained enamored with the Liberal Party until Jean Chretien and the Sponsorship Scandal chased me over to the Conservatives.

edit: I found this which I posted on lukin's new thread.

"Over 16 years with Trudeau as prime minister, Canada's national debt skyrocketed by 1,200 per cent, from $17 billion to more than $200 billion. "

http://www.canadahistory.com/sections/politics/pm/pierretrudeau.htm

Edited September 27, 2010 by capricorn

[msdogfood]

I suspect that the "Toronto elite", in John Baird's words, will soon accuse Stephen Harper of being divisive. The National CBC in Toronto, The Toronto Star, the Toronto Globe & Mail, the Toronto CTV, the Toronto Global network and even the National Post will soon claim that Stephen Harper is a divisive politician. He seeks wedge issues.

And yet. Trudeau was also a very controversial, divisive politician.

So, who divided/has divided Canada more: Trudeau or Harper?

Harper!!!.

[RNG]

Harper by far. Trudeau was PM through many years of difficult times much more difficult then anything Harper will likely face. Harper is really just an American patsy. Harper has even bragged about watching American news rather than Canadian news. Harper is like a dog on a leash beside his American master.

Trudeau was in difficult times? Mostly of his own making. Harper is having to ride out one of the world's worst recessions. Trudeau screwed me, he screwed my wife and worst of all ,he screwed my kids. Harper has totally pissed me off lately. But Trudeau is just evil IMO.

Edited September 27, 2010 by RNG

[Jack Weber]

Trudeau was in difficult times? Mostly of his own making. Harper is having to ride out one of the world's worst recessions. Trudeau screwed me, he screwed my wife and worst of all ,he screwed my kids. Harper has totally pissed me off lately. But Trudeau is just evil IMO.

The energy crisis of the early '70's was his own making????

The October Crisis was his own making?

Edited September 27, 2010 by Jack Weber

[RNG]

The energy crisis of the early '70's was his own making????

The October Crisis was his own making?

No, just the NEP. And that is enough for me to wish that he burns in hell forever.

[g_bambino]

No, just the NEP. And that is enough for me to wish that he burns in hell forever.

That's nothing to do with what you previously said: the difficult times during which Trudeau was prime minister were mostly of his own making. I'm no lover of Trudeau, but I find your comment odd, to say the least.

[ToadBrother]

That's nothing to do with what you previously said: the difficult times during which Trudeau was prime minister were mostly of his own making. I'm no lover of Trudeau, but I find your comment odd, to say the least.

People the world over live in this fantasy realm whereby politicians have power over global market forces. This allows them to blame said politicians for things quite beyond said politicians' capacities to actually control.

[Jack Weber]

That's nothing to do with what you previously said: the difficult times during which Trudeau was prime minister were mostly of his own making. I'm no lover of Trudeau, but I find your comment odd, to say the least.

It's n ot odd at all...

A.B.A

Another Bitter Albertan....

'Nuff said...

And you're right....He did'nt answer the question because it does'nt matter to that geographical ilk in this country...

Of course,I'm the Eastern Bastard of that ilk's nightmares,and do not give a damn!!!!

Edited September 27, 2010 by Jack Weber

[ToadBrother]

Trudeau was in difficult times? Mostly of his own making. Harper is having to ride out one of the world's worst recessions. Trudeau screwed me, he screwed my wife and worst of all ,he screwed my kids. Harper has totally pissed me off lately. But Trudeau is just evil IMO.

At least Trudeau was enough the law-abiding PM to negotiate constitutional changes as opposed to Harper, who wholesale invented the idea of executive privilege, which was expressly denied by Parliament three centuries ago when they made themselves supreme over the Crown. I'll take Trudeau any day over a man who is either ignorant of the nature of our constitutional system, or doesn't care and simply invents imaginary constitutional precepts to avoid having to provide any document that Parliament may demand.

[Jack Weber]

At least Trudeau was enough the law-abiding PM to negotiate constitutional changes as opposed to Harper, who wholesale invented the idea of executive privilege, which was expressly denied by Parliament three centuries ago when they made themselves supreme over the Crown. I'll take Trudeau any day over a man who is either ignorant of the nature of our constitutional system, or doesn't care and simply invents imaginary constitutional precepts to avoid having to provide any document that Parliament may demand.

It could be said that at least Trudeau tried to enhance our nationhood by negotiating those constitutional changes...

Whether it worked for the better is certainly debateable...

The same cannot be said for Firewall Stevie....

[g_bambino]

At least Trudeau was enough the law-abiding PM to negotiate constitutional changes as opposed to Harper, who wholesale invented the idea of executive privilege, which was expressly denied by Parliament three centuries ago when they made themselves supreme over the Crown.

You know my feelings on Harper's constitutional games, but Trudeau wasn't exactly without his moments of totalitarianism: When the provinces and First Nations began to balk at Trudeau's plans for the constitution, he stated that he didn't have to consider their opinions and would go to petition the British parliament himself to have it pass the appropriate legislation. Not only did British officials, once they'd got wind of this threat, start preparing to give Trudeau an abrupt "no", but some (or all, I can't quite remember) of the provinces took the matter to the Supreme Court, which ruled that the Prime Minister had to have the approval of at least the majority of the provincial governments before constitutional changes could be made. Trudeau, obviously, obeyed, but he had to be forced.

[August1991]

Not only did British officials, once they'd got wind of this threat, start preparing to give Trudeau an abrupt "no", but some (or all, I can't quite remember) of the provinces took the matter to the Supreme Court, which ruled that the Prime Minister had to have the approval of at least the majority of the provincial governments before constitutional changes could be made. Trudeau, obviously, obeyed, but he had to be forced.

The Canadian Supreme Court ruled no such thing. It said that strictly speaking, we had no constitutional amending formula except a simple Act of the British parliament. It added that convention required some kind of provincial approval - without saying what that meant.

Trudeau took this to mean that with Ontario (Davis) and New Brunswick (Hatfield), he could go ahead and change the constitution which he fully intended to do. When the other provinces realized that Trudeau was going to do what he wanted anyway, they abandoned Quebec (in the famous Night of the Long Knives) and struck a deal with Trudeau/Chretien.

It was a week of high stakes poker bluffing and strategy. Thatcher accepted to pass the law through the UK parliament, adding a proviso that this would never be done again.

The end result is that we have a thoroughly botched Charter of Rights, and a confusing set of amending formulae - all excluding the agreement of the Quebec government, an agreement that is at the very heart of Confederation.

This grave error, a lost opportunity, will come back to haunt our grandchildren.

[capricorn]

Trudeau was in difficult times? Mostly of his own making.

He didn't do us any favours on the economic front. In addition to mounting a monumental national debt, he single-handedly destroyed our relations with the US.

Relations between Canada and the United States have become more strained than at any time in recent memory." So began a survey of U.S.-Canada relations published in Foreign Affairs in 1982, two years before Brian Mulroney first won the prime ministership. The Foreign Affairs authors were putting it mildly. Over the course of Pierre Trudeau's last term in office, the temperature of Canada's most important foreign relationship had plunged from chilly to icy.

The deep freeze inflicted real costs on Canadians. By 1984, the terms of trade were turning against Canadian raw-materials exports, and Canadian manufacturers faced an intensifying threat of protectionism in Congress.

With centre-right governments in power in Washington, London and Bonn, Canada found itself isolated, its interests disregarded, its opinions openly scoffed at. Lawrence Eagleburger, the future secretary of state, notoriously derided Trudeau's 1982 "peace initiative" as the "pot-induced behaviour of an erratic leftist."

Brian Mulroney set himself to restore Canada's reputation as a respected and reliable partner. He succeeded -- and then some.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=ea44c2a3-bbd4-49bd-bac7-3cbf450d6037

I guess his intellectualism and charisma kept him in the PM's chair a little too long.

[RNG]

He didn't do us any favours on the economic front. In addition to mounting a monumental national debt, he single-handedly destroyed our relations with the US.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=ea44c2a3-bbd4-49bd-bac7-3cbf450d6037

I guess his intellectualism and charisma kept him in the PM's chair a little too long.

The most damning evidence that women should never been given the vote. :) (Please note the tongue-in-cheekiness of this post.)

Edited September 28, 2010 by RNG

[capricorn]

The most damning evidence that women should never been given the vote. :) (Please note the tongue-in-cheekiness of this post.)

You're bad RNG. Bad as in a good sense of humour.