Manitoba Judge "Sex" Scandal

[ToadBrother]

Clearly she was not a judge at the time nor is it clear that the actions of her husband were completely known to her.

And yet when a judge is appointed, past behavior is a consideration. Obviously we largely have only one side of the story here, but if what this fellow is saying is in fact true that I put it to you that it is unlikely that if it had been known prior to her appointment, it is unlikely that she would have ever been made a judge.

For the moment at least, the allegations are a serious enough question on her fitness to sit on the bench that it's difficult to see how she can remain serving as a judge. It sucks, and may even be unfair, but judges occupy such an extraordinarily important position that they are indeed held to a much higher standard than just about anyone else in society.

Edited September 1, 2010 by ToadBrother

[bush_cheney2004]

....I put it to you that it is unlikely that if it had been known prior to her appointment, it is unlikely that she would have ever been made a judge.

Why? Whose "moral standard" is being invoked here? This kind of subjective thinking was used to exclude homosexuals from many government and private positions. I am purposely challenging the knee jerk mindset on display here by some members, all while pretending to be liberal minded, "multicultural" folk. LOL!

[GostHacked]

Why? Whose "moral standard" is being invoked here? This kind of subjective thinking was used to exclude homosexuals from many government and private positions. I am purposely challenging the knee jerk mindset on display here by some members, all while pretending to be liberal minded, "multicultural" folk. LOL!

And here I was thinking you were some kind of expert on Canada. You were trolling for something and not getting what you expected with the responses. Your frustration with these responses shows.

[ToadBrother]

Why? Whose "moral standard" is being invoked here? This kind of subjective thinking was used to exclude homosexuals from many government and private positions. I am purposely challenging the knee jerk mindset on display here by some members, all while pretending to be liberal minded, "multicultural" folk. LOL!

Moral standards are evolving things. I'm just telling you the way it is, not necessarily the way it should be. And yes, sometimes, the actions of our spouses can have repurcussions for us. I'm not defending, merely stating. To my mind, if consenting adults want to have sex, it's none of my business. But the issue for a judge is always one of good judgment themselves, and showing poor judgment, even as far as nude pictures unfortunately shows poor judgment and thus makes suitability for the bench an issue. Who knows, after twenty years of Facebook, no one will give a crap if you hang your wang out for the camera, but we're not there yet. I certainly wouldn't have nude pictures of myself even on a passworded site (not that anyone would actually want to look at them, mind you).

[ToadBrother]

And here I was thinking you were some kind of expert on Canada. You were trolling for something and not getting what you expected with the responses. Your frustration with these responses shows.

I doubt very much this would play any differently in most, if not all US jurisdictions.

[msj]

But that is arbitrary and capricious....such a standard would exclude the vast majority of jurists and non-jurists alike.

Well, Canada does not have a Code of Conduct for Judges but there is an Ethical Code.

Maybe...I would prefer that a judge follow written law, not their "moral" preferences.

Sure, and we do have written laws (criminal_ that she (and/or her husband) may be facing. We will have to see.

Of course, there still are the Ethical Principles mentioned above but that is not nearly as good as a proper Code of Conduct.

We will have to wait and see what comes of the allegations - whether there is any criminality to this case or not.

No it's not...."hush money" is a standard settlement method for many civil claims and circumstances. What's so different about this one....sex?

It has the appearance of being hush money and an investigation will need to determine whether it is or not.

Then define the "higher standard".

When she was a lawyer that higher standard is the Code of Conduct that I have already linked to from the Law Soceity of Manitoba.

As a judge, that standard is as linked above.

Your premise is flawed....what is "morally corrupt" about this situation?

That her husband may have pressured someone to have sex with her? That she knowingly hushed it up? That she sits on the bench, now, and could be blackmailed or impartial because of this?

[bush_cheney2004]

And here I was thinking you were some kind of expert on Canada. You were trolling for something and not getting what you expected with the responses. Your frustration with these responses shows.

Actually, I am getting exactly what I expected. I will remember the responses anytime I see a Canadian "expert" thread about backward bible-thumping Americans in Alabama or Mississippi.

Your "morals" are no better than theirs.

[GostHacked]

Actually, I am getting exactly what I expected.

You expected people to disagree with you, that much is evident, and that much you got.

I will remember the responses anytime I see a Canadian "expert" thread about backward bible-thumping Americans in Alabama or Mississippi.

You keep on remembering it if helps you sleep at night.

Your "morals" are no better than theirs.

My personal morals don't come into play here when we are talking about a judge and her morals and ethics and wanting to serve on the bench.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, Canada does not have a Code of Conduct for Judges but there is an Ethical Code.

She wasn't a judge in 2003.

Sure, and we do have written laws (criminal_ that she (and/or her husband) may be facing. We will have to see.

Of course, there still are the Ethical Principles mentioned above but that is not nearly as good as a proper Code of Conduct.

We will have to wait and see what comes of the allegations - whether there is any criminality to this case or not.

Lots of maybes and could be.....none are legal requirements and I dare say in this case would fail a Charter challenge (extramarital sex).

It has the appearance of being hush money and an investigation will need to determine whether it is or not.

Hush money is not illegal, not even in Manitoba.

When she was a lawyer that higher standard is the Code of Conduct that I have already linked to from the Law Soceity of Manitoba.

As a judge, that standard is as linked above.

Unrelated events given the timeline. Which ethics or laws were broken?

That her husband may have pressured someone to have sex with her? That she knowingly hushed it up? That she sits on the bench, now, and could be blackmailed or impartial because of this?

TBD....your argument was used for years against homosexuals...why is it valid now?

[msj]

Why? Whose "moral standard" is being invoked here? This kind of subjective thinking was used to exclude homosexuals from many government and private positions. I am purposely challenging the knee jerk mindset on display here by some members, all while pretending to be liberal minded, "multicultural" folk. LOL!

This is plainly nonsense.

You have gotten little to no response about the "lurid" nature of this because we don't really care about those details (well, from a "lurid" POV we don't care).

What we do care about are the ethical questions that have been raised (and possible criminal charges).

For a lawyer and a (now) judge to conduct themselves in this way is not the same as being a homosexual.

Yes, at one time one could be blackmailed for being a homosexual.

That is a lot different than being blackmailed for having naked photo's of oneself on a website that could be very embarrassing to a person (and, therefore, used against that person).

Throw in accusations of pressuring a client to have sex and the husband is certainly looking to be in trouble.

I would assume that if this case involved a gay judge who had naked photos of himself on a website and that his partner pressured a client to sleep with him (back when the judge was a lawyer) then the same concerns would be raised about ethics, code of conduct, impartiality, criminal behaviour etc regardless of the fact that they happen to be gay.

It really is about ethics, code of conduct and, perhaps, criminal behaviour.

So, yes, morals do play a role here. They usually do when ethics/criminal behaviour is involved.

[bush_cheney2004]

You expected people to disagree with you, that much is evident, and that much you got.

I expected logical thinkers to respond accordingly (e.g. Mr. ....subjective thinkers to fall into the trap, just as you did.

You keep on remembering it if helps you sleep at night.

I sleep at night no matter what....but you already knew that.

My personal morals don't come into play here when we are talking about a judge and her morals and ethics and wanting to serve on the bench.

She is already appointed and serving. Try to pay attention.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Throw in accusations of pressuring a client to have sex and the husband is certainly looking to be in trouble.

Yes...the husband may be in trouble, but he is not the judge. Accusations are easy....prove them.

I would assume that if this case involved a gay judge who had naked photos of himself on a website and that his partner pressured a client to sleep with him (back when the judge was a lawyer) then the same concerns would be raised about ethics, code of conduct, impartiality, criminal behaviour etc regardless of the fact that they happen to be gay.

I think not, at least not to this degree because it would cause "gay lifestyle" backlash. Pressure and context have yet to be proven.

It really is about ethics, code of conduct and, perhaps, criminal behaviour.

So, yes, morals do play a role here. They usually do when ethics/criminal behaviour is involved.

No criminal behaviour has been alleged as far as I can tell. Yours is just more conjecture.

Edited September 1, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[msj]

She wasn't a judge in 2003.

But she is a judge now and there are naked photo's and other information about her that may be used to blackmail her.

Sure, now that this is out in the open maybe she could continue to serve as a judge as it's not like it could be used against her now.

But there is probably more to this story and I am more concerned with whether or not anyone was able to blackmail her that we're not aware of.

That is, has she already been subject to blackmail over any of this?

Lots of maybes and could be.....none are legal requirements and I dare say in this case would fail a Charter challenge (extramarital sex).

Sure, this is just the beginning of any investigation. As more facts become known then we will know to what extent she may have been compromised and whether or not her husband (or herself) conducted themselves either illegally or violated the respective code of conduct or ethical codes.

It is entirely possible that the media has screwed up this story and more facts going through the proper channels is the way this should proceed.

I don't fault the media, however, for reporting on this because it is very sensational and will sell copy. Good for them.

Hush money is not illegal, not even in Manitoba.

I don't know the law well enough to know the difference between hush money and bribery.

I suspect you don't either.

Given that the husband and wife were lawyers and a contract was entered into I imagine that they will be fine for that, legally.

But they are going to bump up against the Soceity's Code of Conduct (as already linked to above).

Unrelated events given the timeline. Which ethics or laws were broken?

Read the links for yourself.

I will wait and see what facts become available and how those get processed through the proper disciplinary channels.

Who knows what will happen once more lawyers get involved?

TBD....your argument was used for years against homosexuals...why is it valid now?

Because a homosexual could find him/herself compromised in exactly the same way?

It's not about one's sexual orientation but about how one (anyone, regardless of race, SO, gender, etc) conducts them self?

That such conduct is measured against a code of conduct and Ethical Principles that are written down and interpreted within a legal framework?

At the very least, legitimate questions need to be asked.

[msj]

Yes...the husband may be in trouble, but he is not the judge. Accusations are easy....prove them.

We will have to wait and see what comes from an investigation.

I know that, presumably you know that but you don't seem to understand that I am commenting on the story as reported and that I am aware that other information will become available (and should come available).

I think not, at least not to this degree because it would cause "gay lifestyle" backlash. Pressure and context have yet to be proven.

Maybe there would be a backlash like you say. Maybe not.

We're not presented with that case at this time so who knows? Conjecture on your part.

No criminal behaviour has been alleged as far as I can tell. Yours is just more conjecture.

Pressuring a client to have sex with your wife could be criminal behaviour.

At the very least, it goes against the Code of Conduct as I have already linked to above.

It's never a good idea for a lawyer to sleep with a client or to sleep with their husband's client.

Yes, regardless of sexual orientation, it is still not a good idea and it will raise questions about ethics, perception, etc... you know, like the questions that we have been raising.

Oh, and such questions will be linked to the Code of Conduct that any lawyer agrees to when becoming a lawyer.

You know, written down rules that one will be measured against.

Edited September 1, 2010 by msj

[bush_cheney2004]

Because a homosexual could find him/herself compromised in exactly the same way?

...and "society" has determined that such standards violate individual rights.

It's not about one's sexual orientation but about how one (anyone, regardless of race, SO, gender, etc) conducts them self?

What conduct do you find objectionable....the legal contract for hush money?

That such conduct is measured against a code of conduct and Ethical Principles that are written down and interpreted within a legal framework?

Quite to the contrary...some members here maintain that judges are holy and must be held to even a higher standard.

At the very least, legitimate questions need to be asked.

Awww...that's no fun....cause then it wouldn't be a juicy "interracial" sex scandal with photos!

[msj]

...and "society" has determined that such standards violate individual rights.

Well, sometimes those rights butt up against ethical codes and other standards and things need to get sorted out.

We're at the sorting stage.

What conduct do you find objectionable....the legal contract for hush money?

For the husband I think I have already answered clearly.

For her I have also answered clearly already but will add some more detail about the vetting stage - she should have made sure that this was out in the open from the beginning to ensure that no one would be scratching their head wondering about potential blackmail over some photos or her being a member of a website.

Yeah, maybe she couldn't have talked about the Chapman incident because it is confidential (that's what the money was paid for, right?) but those doing the vetting sure would have been interested in knowing about such things.

Quite to the contrary...some members here maintain that judges are holy and must be held to even a higher standard.

Well, maybe GH does? He can answer for himself.

I hold judges, lawyers, and professionals to a higher standard because of things like fiduciary duty and all that.

That's why we're held not only to account by Canada's legal system but also why we have our own professional organizations that maintain their own standards (and we agree to abide by those standards when we pay our dues).

Awww...that's no fun....cause then it wouldn't be a juicy "interracial" sex scandal with photos!

I don't want to see the pictures. Neither she nor he is compelling in anyway.

[wyly]

But she is a judge now and there are naked photo's and other information about her that may be used to blackmail her.

Sure, now that this is out in the open maybe she could continue to serve as a judge as it's not like it could be used against her now.

But there is probably more to this story and I am more concerned with whether or not anyone was able to blackmail her that we're not aware of.

That is, has she already been subject to blackmail over any of this?

what she does in her sex life unless it's something illegal is irrelevant, that you make an issue of it is where the problem lies...if we just accepted that we all(well most of us) have sex lives and have different lifestyles that we enjoy then what we do after hours is no one's business but our own so not an issue for blackmail...

Sure, this is just the beginning of any investigation. As more facts become known then we will know to what extent she may have been compromised and whether or not her husband (or herself) conducted themselves either illegally or violated the respective code of conduct or ethical codes.

sexual preferences aren't part of any ethical code that I'm aware of...

It is entirely possible that the media has screwed up this story and more facts going through the proper channels is the way this should proceed.

I don't fault the media, however, for reporting on this because it is very sensational and will sell copy. Good for them.

ya we all love a naughty story don't we...

I don't know the law well enough to know the difference between hush money and bribery.

I suspect you don't either.

Given that the husband and wife were lawyers and a contract was entered into I imagine that they will be fine for that, legally.

But they are going to bump up against the Soceity's Code of Conduct (as already linked to above).

so why speculate, there was difference of opinion when this all took place let the law society worry about it...

Read the links for yourself.

I will wait and see what facts become available and how those get processed through the proper disciplinary channels.

Who knows what will happen once more lawyers get involved?

Because a homosexual could find him/herself compromised in exactly the same way?

It's not about one's sexual orientation but about how one (anyone, regardless of race, SO, gender, etc) conducts them self?

That such conduct is measured against a code of conduct and Ethical Principles that are written down and interpreted within a legal framework?

At the very least, legitimate questions need to be asked.

innocent till proven otherwise...

[DogOnPorch]

This story needs more hot girl on girl action...

[msj]

what she does in her sex life unless it's something illegal is irrelevant, that you make an issue of it is where the problem lies...if we just accepted that we all(well most of us) have sex lives and have different lifestyles that we enjoy then what we do after hours is no one's business but our own so not an issue for blackmail...

sexual preferences aren't part of any ethical code that I'm aware of...

ya we all love a naughty story don't we...

so why speculate, there was difference of opinion when this all took place let the law society worry about it...

innocent till proven otherwise...

Sure, they are innocent until proven guilty and I never stated otherwise.

I have stated that there are many questions that need to be answered and that both the judge and her husband should answer those questions through the proper channels (Law Society disciplinary committee, whatever committee the judges have for ethics, and criminal if that ends up being appropriate based on whatever facts come from this story).

Her sex life is relevant (as is her husbands') to the extent that it affects their partiality, integrity (perceived or real), etc...

That's why professional societies have codes of conduct.

Sure, they are innocent but from the story that has come out so far, they don't appear to be very professional.

-----------------------

I should note that in another thread I have posted my score on being "authoritarian vs libertarian" and I came in as extremely libertarian.

However, as a professional (albeit, just a lowly accountant) I understand that I have to abide by certain conduct which I agree to when I pay my annual dues.

Lawyers certainly understand this concept and should know better.

[wyly]

This story needs more hot girl on girl action...

I checked out the website Dark Cavern (purely for research purposes ) it has lots of action, didn't see any GoG...judge doesn't have her pic on there anymore...

[DogOnPorch]

I checked out the website Dark Cavern (purely for research purposes ) it has lots of action, didn't see any GoG...judge doesn't have her pic on there anymore...

Probably for the best...for her...lol. Getting involved with the swinging scene pretty much invites such occurances. Sounds like a Law and Order episode waiting to happen...torn from the headlines.

[wyly]

Sure, they are innocent until proven guilty and I never stated otherwise.

I have stated that there are many questions that need to be answered and that both the judge and her husband should answer those questions through the proper channels (Law Society disciplinary committee, whatever committee the judges have for ethics, and criminal if that ends up being appropriate based on whatever facts come from this story).

then why worry about it until the law society makes a decision...

Her sex life is relevant (as is her husbands') to the extent that it affects their partiality, integrity (perceived or real), etc...

it's not, it only becomes so when we(the public) make it an issue, I don't care what they do...

That's why professional societies have codes of conduct.

if it interfers with them doing their job yes but that hasn't been demonstrated it all hearsay...

Sure, they are innocent but from the story that has come out so far, they don't appear to be very professional.

subjective, I'm sure my lawyer has sex that I find out the details of it doesn't make him less professional...

However, as a professional (albeit, just a lowly accountant) I understand that I have to abide by certain conduct which I agree to when I pay my annual dues.

if you have group sex with whipped cream it wouldn't matter to me as long as you found all my tax deductions, your private life is yours alone...

[wyly]

Probably for the best...for her...lol. Getting involved with the swinging scene pretty much invites such occurances. Sounds like a Law and Order episode waiting to happen...torn from the headlines.

sad that in this day and age we(media) still make a big deal out of other peoples aex lives when it has no bearing on their work performance, it only becomes an issue because we're judgemental on normal sexual behaviour...

[DogOnPorch]

sad that in this day and age we(media) still make a big deal out of other peoples aex lives when it has no bearing on their work performance, it only becomes an issue because we're judgemental on normal sexual behaviour...

It is a pretty debatable subject. I'm certainly no prude, but a judge with poor judgement is not really a judge. I'm not sure I'd want her trying my case if I was before her. This story isn't new as such. Many photos and vids of people end up online when they should have thought twice about the whole thing. Passion over brains, I guess.

Edited September 2, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[wyly]

It is a pretty debatable. I'm certainly no prude, but a judge with poor judgement is not really a judge. I'm not sure I'd want her trying my case if I was before her. This story isn't new as such. Many photos and vids of people end up online when they should have thought twice about the whole thing. Passion over brains, I guess.

she claims it was her husband who put the pictures online without her consent which is certainly possible (it happens often)...it wouldn't effect my view of her in any case as in regards to her job...