Jack Weber Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 You didn't read the poem on the other thread? That's written by a Palestinian, and he has a bunch of them. There are others like him,in Palestine and in other countries. There are genuine peace movements all over. And I can tell from some of the responses on that thread--like from people who clearly and unambiguously want an Islamic enemy, who cherish the "clash of civilizations" narrative--that "the rest of us" hear only what we choose to hear. Hell, this thread is also about moderate Muslims--and the hate and ignorance they're facing. Not by other Muslims. So he's a "John Brown" type... A lone voice in the wilderness??? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
bloodyminded Posted August 12, 2010 Author Report Posted August 12, 2010 How long do you think Tarek Fatah or Salim Mansour would last in the Islamic world for asking the average Muslim to be introspective about the unanswered historic ills currently besetting the faith or to stand up against the Islamofascists who are the real opressors within Islam? If you read Dre's post that directly precedes yours, it sounds as if they'd be among the majority of Muslims. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
bloodyminded Posted August 12, 2010 Author Report Posted August 12, 2010 So he's a "John Brown" type... A lone voice in the wilderness??? Where do you get that? Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Jack Weber Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 (edited) Thats not true. Its happening all over the world, and the moderates are winning. Instead of being the major political movement it was characterized as after 911 violent jihadists are an isolated group, that is actively persecuted in almost every muslim country. Al-Azhar University in Cairo, one of the worlds leading centers of Islamic learning has been routinely comdemning extremism and jihadism for a few years. The Darul Uloom Deoband movement in India that spawned the origional radicalism that Al Qeada is based on now routinely opposes Islamic Jihad. Those are just two examples. And its having a dramatic effect on muslim public opinion... A smaller percentage of Mulsims believe that attacks on civilians are "often or sometimes justified" than the percentage of Americans asked the same question. The problem is that westerners know JACK SHIT about whats going on in the muslim world. They hear about the sensational stories, and acts of violence and terrorism and thats pretty much it. Beyond that they know how many nose jobs Michael Jackson had before he died... they know which hollywood celebrities are cheating on their spouses, and what date SAW 15 is coming out. They know only the information that market execs at media corporations thing is usefull to generate ratings in order to sell ad space. Egypt?? The same place that is the stronghold for the Muslim Brotherhood?? The place where Ayman Al-Zwahari is from?? The same place Coptic Christians were murdered last year for being....Christians??? The bombings at Sharm-El Sheikh? Quite an enlightened place,that Egypt... Sorry...Fish ain't biting on that one... Edited August 12, 2010 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 (edited) Where do you get that? Because I think that's what he is... Unlike others here,I'm not doubting the man's sincerity... I'm seriously doubting the numbers that follow him and sadly,I'm fairly certain of the types that would like to kill him for saying those things... Edited August 12, 2010 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
bloodyminded Posted August 12, 2010 Author Report Posted August 12, 2010 Because I think that's what he is... Unlike others here,I'm not doubting the man's sincerity... I'm seriously doubting the numbers that follow him and sadly,I'm fairly certain of the types that would like to kill him for saying those things... Yet no one does try to kill him. Odd. I think you underestimate how many peaceable, decent Muslims there are. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
dre Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 (edited) Egypt?? The same place that is the stronghold for the Muslim Brotherhood?? The place where Ayman Al-Zwahari is from?? The same place Coptic Christians were murdered last year for being....Christians??? Quite an enlightened place,that Egypt... Sorry...Fish ain't biting on that one... Thats a bait and switch. You claimed muslims arent speaking out against extremism and I pointed out that they are... in large numbers, and its having a profound effect on public opinion. Then you say that since theres still elements of extremism in Egypt that someone the examples I gave you dont matter. Thats dishonest. You didnt even read my post. You also didnt address the change in public opinion in muslim countries and the fact jihadism is on the run, crisisized by more and more muslims world wide. If you spent 1 hour researching this you would realize your narrative is just flat out wrong. Read it again... Thats not true. Its happening all over the world, and the moderates are winning. Instead of being the major political movement it was characterized as after 911 violent jihadists are an isolated group, that is actively persecuted in almost every muslim country. Al-Azhar University in Cairo, one of the worlds leading centers of Islamic learning has been routinely comdemning extremism and jihadism for a few years. The Darul Uloom Deoband movement in India that spawned the origional radicalism that Al Qeada is based on now routinely opposes Islamic Jihad. Those are a few examples. In 2007 one of bin Laden's most prominent Saudi mentors, the preacher and scholar Salman al-Odah, wrote an open letter criticizing him for "fostering a culture of suicide bombings that has caused bloodshed and suffering, and brought ruin to entire Muslim communities and families." That same year Abdulaziz al ash-Sheikh, the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, issued a fatwa prohibiting Saudis from engaging in jihad abroad and accused both bin Laden and Arab regimes of "transforming our youth into walking bombs to accomplish their own political and military aims." One of Al Qaeda's own top theorists, Abdul-Aziz el-Sherif, renounced its extremism, including the killing of civilians and the choosing of targets based on religion and nationality. And its having a dramatic effect on muslim public opinion... London School of Economics professor Fawaz Gerges has analyzed polls from dozens of Muslim countries over the past few years. He notes that in a range of places—Jordan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Lebanon, and Bangladesh—there have been substantial declines in the number of people who say suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets can be justified to defend Islam. Wide majorities say such attacks are, at most, rarely acceptable.The shift has been especially dramatic in Jordan, where only 12 percent of Jordanians view suicide attacks as "often or sometimes justified" (down from 57 percent in 2005). In Indonesia, 85 percent of respondents agree that terrorist attacks are "rarely/never justified" (in 2002, by contrast, only 70 percent opposed such attacks). In Pakistan, that figure is 90 percent, up from 43 percent in 2002. Gerges points out that, by comparison, only 46 percent of Americans say that "bombing and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians" are "never justified," while 24 percent believe these attacks are "often or sometimes justified." A smaller percentage of Mulsims believe that attacks on civilians are "often or sometimes justified" than the percentage of Americans asked the same question. The problem is that westerners know JACK SHIT about whats going on in the muslim world. They hear about the sensational stories, and acts of violence and terrorism and thats pretty much it. Beyond that they know how many nose jobs Michael Jackson had before he died... they know which hollywood celebrities are cheating on their spouses, and what date SAW 15 is coming out. They know only the information that market execs at media corporations thing is usefull to generate ratings in order to sell ad space. Theres a good read on this here... http://www.newsweek.com/2010/02/11/the-jihad-against-the-jihadis.html Edited August 12, 2010 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Jack Weber Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 Yet no one does try to kill him. Odd. I think you underestimate how many peaceable, decent Muslims there are. Not yet they have'nt... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
bloodyminded Posted August 12, 2010 Author Report Posted August 12, 2010 Not yet they have'nt... He's an old man who's been doing this for a long time. What are they waiting for? Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Jack Weber Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 Thats a bait and switch. You claimed muslims arent speaking out against extremism and I pointed out that they are... in large numbers, and its having a profound effect on public opinion. Then you say that since theres still elements of extremism in Egypt that someone the examples I gave you dont matter. Thats dishonest. You didnt even read my post. You also didnt address the change in public opinion in muslim countries and the fact jihadism is on the run, crisisized by more and more muslims world wide. If you spent 1 hour researching this you would realize your narrative is just flat out wrong. Read it again... Thats not true. Its happening all over the world, and the moderates are winning. Instead of being the major political movement it was characterized as after 911 violent jihadists are an isolated group, that is actively persecuted in almost every muslim country. Al-Azhar University in Cairo, one of the worlds leading centers of Islamic learning has been routinely comdemning extremism and jihadism for a few years. The Darul Uloom Deoband movement in India that spawned the origional radicalism that Al Qeada is based on now routinely opposes Islamic Jihad. Those are a few examples. And its having a dramatic effect on muslim public opinion... A smaller percentage of Mulsims believe that attacks on civilians are "often or sometimes justified" than the percentage of Americans asked the same question. The problem is that westerners know JACK SHIT about whats going on in the muslim world. They hear about the sensational stories, and acts of violence and terrorism and thats pretty much it. Beyond that they know how many nose jobs Michael Jackson had before he died... they know which hollywood celebrities are cheating on their spouses, and what date SAW 15 is coming out. They know only the information that market execs at media corporations thing is usefull to generate ratings in order to sell ad space. Theres a good read on this here... http://www.newsweek.com/2010/02/11/the-jihad-against-the-jihadis.html Where have I claimed they are'nt speaking out??? I agree there has to be a sane element within Islam that does'nt want their faith hi-jacked by lunatics. The problem is that you cited this groundswell of anti-Islamofascism in Egypt and I pointed to 3(actually 4 because there were bombings at Sharm El-Sheikh two years ago) examples that prove that maybe it is'nt working at all. Nevertheless,I hope it's true that this Islamofascism is being batted back by the sane majority within the Islamic world because that would go a long way to ending alot of unnecessary hostilities... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 He's an old man who's been doing this for a long time. What are they waiting for? Right...Then he is a "John Brown" type... The Islamofascist probably look at him an old kook who really can't do much,and certainly,is'nt going to stop the Hamas Islamofascist types from doing what they do best... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
bloodyminded Posted August 12, 2010 Author Report Posted August 12, 2010 Right...Then he is a "John Brown" type... The Islamofascist probably look at him an old kook who really can't do much,and certainly,is'nt going to stop the Hamas Islamofascist types from doing what they do best... The Palestinian terrorities are full of artists and musicians, as rougher areas of the world always are. Your view is a caricature. The crazies are not shadowing people and murdering apostates at every opportunity. These are ordinary people trying to go about their lives. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Jack Weber Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 (edited) The Palestinian terrorities are full of artists and musicians, as rougher areas of the world always are. Your view is a caricature. The crazies are not shadowing people and murdering apostates at every opportunity. These are ordinary people trying to go about their lives. I'm sure there are... Unfortunately,they live under a yoke of faith based Fascism that does'nt allow that side of things to be said... Ya'know...Things like extrajudicial killings by agents of Hamas,and the like... Edited August 12, 2010 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
bloodyminded Posted August 12, 2010 Author Report Posted August 12, 2010 I'm sure there are... Unfortunately,they live under a yoke of faith based Fascism that does'nt allow that side of things to be said... Ya'know...Things like extrajudicial killings by agents of Hamas,and the like... ..."and the like" being extrajudicial killings by Israelis, I suppose. But I'm not defending Hamas, not even slightly. I'm just making the extremist, radical left assertion that Muslims are ordinary people, and that our continual caricatures of them are counterproductive. And for some people, it appears to be intentionally counterproductive: like those who throw insults and tantrums at the presence of a pretty poem which openly advocates for non-violence. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
DogOnPorch Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 Palestinian Arabs made their own bed now they sleep in it. That's what you get for choosing Nazi™ as a trademark. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Jack Weber Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 ..."and the like" being extrajudicial killings by Israelis, I suppose. But I'm not defending Hamas, not even slightly. I'm just making the extremist, radical left assertion that Muslims are ordinary people, and that our continual caricatures of them are counterproductive. And for some people, it appears to be intentionally counterproductive: like those who throw insults and tantrums at the presence of a pretty poem which openly advocates for non-violence. Extrajudicial killing by the Israelis.... Not when an Islamofascist group of thugs is in power in Gaza and openly advocates for the suicide bombng and rocketing of innocent civilians within Israel.Not when that Islamofascist group is getting funding and military hardware from proxies sponsored by those humanitarian places like Ba'Athist Syria and the Islamic Republic of Iran...Also hellbent on the destruction of Israel,but don't have the courage to face them. Sorry...No love lost for the Islamofascist pigs in Gaza hellbent on the destruction of the state of Israel,as written in their manifesto...Speaking of lunatic ramblings... And I read the poem,and I'm not the one throwing a temper tantrum.I just think it's a sane voice lost in the Islamofascist wilderness... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Shwa Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 Did you learn that while in prison? Another headline - excellent! Quote
Shady Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 I'm just making the extremist, radical left assertion that Muslims are ordinary people, and that our continual caricatures of them are counterproductive. Except your assertion isn't founded in reality. It's wishful 'head-in-the-sand' thinking. And proclaiming it over and over doesn't make it true. Pew Survey of Muslim Countries 200757 percent of Palestinians support Bin Laden. 41 percent of Indonesians support Bin Laden. 38 percent of Pakistanis support Bin Laden. 20 percent of Jordanians support Bin Laden. PEW World Public Opinion Survey 200978 percent of Palestinians have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden. 69 percent of Egyptians have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden. 53 percent of Moroccans have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden. 51 percent of Pakistanis have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden. WPO Facts can be stubborn things sometimes. You idiots sound like paid spokesmen, spinning for your clients. Try stepping into the real world. Quote
dre Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 Except your assertion isn't founded in reality. It's wishful 'head-in-the-sand' thinking. And proclaiming it over and over doesn't make it true. Facts can be stubborn things sometimes. You idiots sound like paid spokesmen, spinning for your clients. Try stepping into the real world. Try stepping into you own link... Heres its title. Sharp Decline in Support for Suicide Bombing in Muslim Countries Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 Another headline - excellent! I just find it amazing that federal prisoners are allowed internet connections. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Jack Weber Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 I just find it amazing that federal prisoners are allowed internet connections. "Clifford!!!BACK TO YOUR CELL IMMEDIATELY!!!!" Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Shady Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 Heres its title. Sharp Decline in Support for Suicide Bombing in Muslim Countries Yep. Which goes to show just how high the levels of radicalism are, when 25-50% support for Bin Laden is a DECLINE. Use your head before you post. Quote
Shwa Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 I just find it amazing that federal prisoners are allowed internet connections. Did you read that on the little FOX news headline flash bar too? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 Did you read that on the little FOX news headline flash bar too? You're allowed cable TV too? Man... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Jack Weber Posted August 12, 2010 Report Posted August 12, 2010 You're allowed cable TV too? Man... Your tax dollars at work... And the Tories want to build more of these things!!! Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
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