Palestinians - Pawns in Arab "Scramble for Land"?

[jbg]

The Arabs are passionate in their defense of Palestinians rights? Correct?

Well not so fast. The Arab countries of Syria, Jordan and Egypt controlled the lands that are now called the "occupied territories" from June 1948 through June 1967. Did they make a move towards creating a "Palestinian" state? No.

An Egyptian, Yasir Arafat, himself a nephew of the bloody Mufti of Jerusalem, was set up to create a fictive "Palestinian" rebel group when sympathy for the "Arab refugee problem" as it was labeled through the mid-1960's fell behind other catastrophes of the day. A recent New York Times Op-Ed (excerpts below, link to article) highlights how hypocritical and fickle Arab support for the "Palestinians" has been. See below:

August 1, 2010

The Palestinians, Alone

By EFRAIM KARSH

London

But the truth is that Arab policies since the mid-1930s suggest otherwise. While the “Palestine question” has long been central to inter-Arab politics, Arab states have shown far less concern for the well-being of the Palestinians than for their own interests.

For example, it was common knowledge that the May 1948 pan-Arab invasion of the nascent state of Israel was more a scramble for Palestinian territory than a fight for Palestinian national rights. As the first secretary-general of the Arab League, Abdel Rahman Azzam, once admitted to a British reporter, the goal of King Abdullah of Transjordan “was to swallow up the central hill regions of Palestine, with access to the Mediterranean at Gaza. The Egyptians would get the Negev. Galilee would go to Syria, except that the coastal part as far as Acre would be added to the Lebanon.”

From 1948 to 1967, when Egypt and Jordan ruled the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, the Arab states failed to put these populations on the road to statehood. They also showed little interest in protecting their human rights or even in improving their quality of life — which is part of the reason why 120,000 West Bank Palestinians moved to the East Bank of the Jordan River and about 300,000 others emigrated abroad. “We couldn’t care less if all the refugees die,” an Egyptian diplomat once remarked. “There are enough Arabs around.”

Not surprisingly, the Arab states have never hesitated to sacrifice Palestinians on a grand scale whenever it suited their needs. In 1970, when his throne came under threat from the Palestine Liberation Organization, the affable and thoroughly Westernized King Hussein of Jordan ordered the deaths of thousands of Palestinians, an event known as “Black September.”

***************

The sooner the Palestinians recognize that their cause is theirs alone, the sooner they are likely to make peace with the existence of the State of Israel and to understand the need for a negotiated settlement.

Efraim Karsh, a professor of Middle East and Mediterranean studies at King’s College London, is the author, most recently, of “Palestine Betrayed.”

[Bonam]

Indeed, these are facts that the critics of Israel always fail to mention and to remember. The problems of the Palestinians today were created to a large extent by the actions of the Arab states to which they formerly belonged. If anyone, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all should have a role to play in the solution of the Palestinian's modern problems. Perhaps the liberals of the world should be crying for a part of the new Palestinian state to be carved out of their territories, rather than out of Israel's tiny borders.

[jbg]

Perhaps the liberals of the world should be crying for a part of the new Palestinian state to be carved out of their territories, rather than out of Israel's tiny borders.

That would defeat the whole purpose of wrecking Israel or any viable Western country that seems to be part of the liberals' guilt agenda.

[Remiel]

Perhaps the liberals of the world should be crying for a part of the new Palestinian state to be carved out of their territories, rather than out of Israel's tiny borders.

Were I in the business of wishing the past to have been different, I would wish that Canada had offered to become the home of European Jews fleeing prosecution. And if there are Palestinians would want to leave the rat race of the Middle East behind, I would be happy to take them here. But I think trying to set up a seperate state for the Palestinians, or the Jews, somewhere else, would just lead to a variant of the same fiasco things are right now.

Also, jbg, what makes you think that Palestinians have not known for years that other Arabs did not give a crap about them?

In any case, if for some reason the " Hashemite Kingdom " were to suddenly disappear and be replaced by a democratic Jordan... Well, suddenly we would have a country where Palestinians are in charge. I do not see a lot of appetite for that regime change, however, here or there.

[Bonam]

Were I in the business of wishing the past to have been different, I would wish that Canada had offered to become the home of European Jews fleeing prosecution.

We could have offered, but it wouldn't have done anything. The Jews didn't want to be a minority in yet another country. They wanted a sovereign state of their own, preferably on their ancient homeland.

And if there are Palestinians would want to leave the rat race of the Middle East behind, I would be happy to take them here.

Really? I wouldn't. Do you really want millions and millions of refugees who would be a giant burden on the economy, a huge boost to crime, and a potential for myriads of terrorists in their midst?

Also, jbg, what makes you think that Palestinians have not known for years that other Arabs did not give a crap about them?

Oh the Palestinians themselves probably know this well by now. It is their Western cheerleaders that don't seem to.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Bonam

[Remiel]

Really? I wouldn't. Do you really want millions and millions of refugees who would be a giant burden on the economy, a huge boost to crime, and a potential for myriads of terrorists in their midst?

I was not anticipating that millions would want to. Jews still have an attachment to Israel after thousands of years. There is no reason to believe that anyone elses attachment to where they are from is more fragile.

[Remiel]

Oh the Palestinians themselves probably know this well by now. It is their Western cheerleaders that don't seem to.

Maybe I am having an obtuse moment, but I do not understand what I am supposed to get from this. The " Western cheerleaders " of the Palestinians do not understand that other Arabs do not give a crap about Palestinians... therefore the " Western cheerleaders " should not either? Seems rather flawed to me.

[Bonam]

Maybe I am having an obtuse moment, but I do not understand what I am supposed to get from this. The " Western cheerleaders " of the Palestinians do not understand that other Arabs do not give a crap about Palestinians... therefore the " Western cheerleaders " should not either? Seems rather flawed to me.

No the point is that people like naomi, for example, repeatedly blame Israel for the troubles of Palestinians and expect it to continually bend over backwards to accommodate them. But, it is other Arab states that have screwed over the Palestinians more than Israel has, and it is they that should bear a big chunk of any sacrifices that may have to be made to rectify the situation. For example, consider Naomi's repeated references to the "Arab peace proposal", supposedly a sincere gesture by the Arabs to arrange for peace with Israel and a state for the Palestinians. In reality it is nothing more than a ruse, a political move that tries to cast Israel in a bad light for not accepting it, while the Palestinians are merely pawns in these political games, as they ever have been.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Bonam

[dre]

Indeed, these are facts that the critics of Israel always fail to mention and to remember. The problems of the Palestinians today were created to a large extent by the actions of the Arab states to which they formerly belonged. If anyone, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all should have a role to play in the solution of the Palestinian's modern problems. Perhaps the liberals of the world should be crying for a part of the new Palestinian state to be carved out of their territories, rather than out of Israel's tiny borders.

Perhaps the liberals of the world should be crying for a part of the new Palestinian state to be carved out of their territories, rather than out of Israel's tiny borders.

Youre plan seems to ammount to ethnic cleansing. Most palestinians wouldnt want to move to Jordan or Egypt, so for youre plan to work you would have to force them to. Seems to make more sense that they should establish a state where they live... where they were born... where their homes are... and where International law, and the world community recognize their place to be.

Also... Egypt, Syria, Lebananon, and Jordan are already the ones that gave up most of that land.

[Bonam]

Youre plan seems to ammount to ethnic cleansing. Most palestinians wouldnt want to move to Jordan or Egypt, so for youre plan to work you would have to force them to. Seems to make more sense that they should establish a state where they live... where they were born... where their homes are...]

Why wouldn't they? Many Palestinians emigrate from the territories as is. With a sovereign state to call their own that would only increase. The Jews certainly had no qualms about immigrating to Israel when it was created, though, for many of them, their homes were elsewhere, where they were born was elsewhere. Same can be said of Europeans that settled around the world, they had no qualms about moving if they thought it meant a better life.

Also... Egypt, Syria, Lebananon, and Jordan are already the ones that gave up most of that land.

You mean by trying to conquer it on multiple occasions?

[dre]

No the point is that people like naomi, for example, repeatedly blame Israel for the troubles of Palestinians and expect it to continually bend over backwards to accommodate them. But, it is other Arab states that have screwed over the Palestinians more than Israel has, and it is they that should bear a big chunk of any sacrifices that may have to be made to rectify the situation. For example, consider Naomi's repeated references to the "Arab peace proposal", supposedly a sincere gesture by the Arabs to arrange for peace with Israel and a state for the Palestinians. In reality it is nothing more than a ruse, a political move that tries to cast Israel in a bad light for not accepting it, while the Palestinians are merely pawns in these political games, as they ever have been.

But, it is other Arab states that have screwed over the Palestinians more than Israel has

Well not exactly... I agree Arab states havent done much to help the palestinians, but its hard to compare what they have done to what Israel has done... you know, the whole 40+ year military occupation, the water quotas, the building of settlments on their land by an occupier.

repeatedly blame Israel for the troubles of Palestinians and expect it to continually bend over backwards to accommodate them.

Not sure if getting off land that isnt yours is really "bending over backwards". Most people just wish Israel would honor treaties it voluntarily signed.

[Bonam]

Not sure if getting off land that isnt yours is really "bending over backwards".

It is if people launch rockets at you from that land, if that land has repeatedly been used to stage invasions against you.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Not sure if getting off land that isnt yours is really "bending over backwards". Most people just wish Israel would honor treaties it voluntarily signed.

So do Canada's First Nations....LOL!

[dre]

Why wouldn't they? Many Palestinians emigrate from the territories as is. With a sovereign state to call their own that would only increase. The Jews certainly had no qualms about immigrating to Israel when it was created, though, for many of them, their homes were elsewhere, where they were born was elsewhere. Same can be said of Europeans that settled around the world, they had no qualms about moving if they thought it meant a better life.

You mean by trying to conquer it on multiple occasions?

No not really... most of it used be part of those countries... none of it was ever part of Israel. Not sure why youd say they tried to "conquer it".

[bush_cheney2004]

No not really... most of it used be part of those countries... none of it was ever part of Israel. Not sure why youd say they tried to "conquer it".

Lebanon was created by French mandate...and chose to join the losing side in wars against a UN mandated Israel. Palestinians fled to the losing side.

[dre]

It is if people launch rockets at you from that land, if that land has repeatedly been used to stage invasions against you.

Both sides did plenty to provoke each other... Just because you intentionally ignore one side of the story doesnt mean it isnt there.

Why wouldn't they? Many Palestinians emigrate from the territories as is. With a sovereign state to call their own that would only increase. The Jews certainly had no qualms about immigrating to Israel when it was created, though, for many of them, their homes were elsewhere, where they were born was elsewhere.

Now youre comparing jews during the aftermath of the holocaust wanting a state on their biblical homeland to the chance of palestinians wanting to leave their homes and... move to Jordan or Egypt?

In any case some or most would not go... so were back to you implementing your plan with force. Back to ethnic cleansing.

Sadly your idea is actually quite popular in Israel right now. They call their ethnic cleansing plan "transfer" and theres a fair ammount of political support for it.

[dre]

Lebanon was created by French mandate...and chose to join the losing side in wars against a UN mandated Israel. Palestinians fled to the losing side.

Thats great... but it isnt in any way a counter argument to any point I made, or vaguely relevant to the post you clicked "reply" on before you wrote it.

But... anyhow, ya.

[bush_cheney2004]

Thats great... but it isnt in any way a counter argument to any point I made, or vaguely relevant to the post you clicked "reply" on before you wrote it.

OK...we'll take it a bit slower just for you. Next time you try to present Lebananon [sic] as a sovereign state that "gave up" land, try to remember the history of how that country came to be.

[dre]

OK...we'll take it a bit slower just for you. Next time you try to present Lebananon [sic] as a sovereign state that "gave up" land, try to remember the history of how that country came to be.

I never mentioned Lebanon specifically but in any case your post is nonsensical, and not really connected to the present conversation in any meaningfull way.

[bush_cheney2004]

I never mentioned Lebanon specifically but in any case your post is nonsensical, and not really connected to the present conversation in any meaningfull way.

OK..it must have been another member named "dre" who posted this:

Also... Egypt, Syria, Lebananon, and Jordan are already the ones that gave up most of that land.

[bloodyminded]

Why wouldn't they?

It's amusing to me that some off-the-cuff comments by people like Helen Thomas are taken as a monumental insult and kind of moral degeneracy...while the same suggestions--precisely the same--for the Palestinians are consided sober ideas.

It just underlines the bigotry and political fanaticism so prevalent any time people talk about the Palestinians.

Many Palestinians emigrate from the territories as is. With a sovereign state to call their own that would only increase. The Jews certainly had no qualms about immigrating to Israel when it was created, though, for many of them, their homes were elsewhere, where they were born was elsewhere. Same can be said of Europeans that settled around the world, they had no qualms about moving if they thought it meant a better life.

You see no distinction between choosing to go somewhere, and being forced to?

Edited August 4, 2010 by bloodyminded

[DogOnPorch]

OK..it must have been another member named "dre" who posted this:

Also... Egypt, Syria, Lebananon, and Jordan are already the ones that gave up most of that land.

Imagine this entire thread re: the Russian Front in WW2.

[DogOnPorch]

The Arabs are passionate in their defense of Palestinians rights? Correct?

Well not so fast. The Arab countries of Syria, Jordan and Egypt controlled the lands that are now called the "occupied territories" from June 1948 through June 1967. Did they make a move towards creating a "Palestinian" state? No.

An Egyptian, Yasir Arafat, himself a nephew of the bloody Mufti of Jerusalem, was set up to create a fictive "Palestinian" rebel group when sympathy for the "Arab refugee problem" as it was labeled through the mid-1960's fell behind other catastrophes of the day. A recent New York Times Op-Ed (excerpts below, link to article) highlights how hypocritical and fickle Arab support for the "Palestinians" has been. See below:

August 1, 2010

The Palestinians, Alone

By EFRAIM KARSH

London

But the truth is that Arab policies since the mid-1930s suggest otherwise. While the “Palestine question” has long been central to inter-Arab politics, Arab states have shown far less concern for the well-being of the Palestinians than for their own interests.

For example, it was common knowledge that the May 1948 pan-Arab invasion of the nascent state of Israel was more a scramble for Palestinian territory than a fight for Palestinian national rights. As the first secretary-general of the Arab League, Abdel Rahman Azzam, once admitted to a British reporter, the goal of King Abdullah of Transjordan “was to swallow up the central hill regions of Palestine, with access to the Mediterranean at Gaza. The Egyptians would get the Negev. Galilee would go to Syria, except that the coastal part as far as Acre would be added to the Lebanon.”

From 1948 to 1967, when Egypt and Jordan ruled the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, the Arab states failed to put these populations on the road to statehood. They also showed little interest in protecting their human rights or even in improving their quality of life — which is part of the reason why 120,000 West Bank Palestinians moved to the East Bank of the Jordan River and about 300,000 others emigrated abroad. “We couldn’t care less if all the refugees die,” an Egyptian diplomat once remarked. “There are enough Arabs around.”

Not surprisingly, the Arab states have never hesitated to sacrifice Palestinians on a grand scale whenever it suited their needs. In 1970, when his throne came under threat from the Palestine Liberation Organization, the affable and thoroughly Westernized King Hussein of Jordan ordered the deaths of thousands of Palestinians, an event known as “Black September.”

***************

The sooner the Palestinians recognize that their cause is theirs alone, the sooner they are likely to make peace with the existence of the State of Israel and to understand the need for a negotiated settlement.

Efraim Karsh, a professor of Middle East and Mediterranean studies at King’s College London, is the author, most recently, of “Palestine Betrayed.”

Good post, jbg. Much like the old Golda quote re: children.

[DogOnPorch]

You see no distinction between choosing to go somewhere, and being forced to?

Yeah...100s of thousands are forced to go to Canada every year.

[bloodyminded]

Yeah...100s of thousands are forced to go to Canada every year.

If you're having some sort of stroke, I sincerely hope you're ok.