What Obama Actually Said:

[dre]

Which nation(s) have actually enacted hate speech laws and human rights commissions for an issue that is not "at the forefront"?

Probably the ones that dont want them to COME to the forefront...

[Smallc]

Probably the ones that dont want them to COME to the forefront...

Especially those that had a ring side view of the situation to the south.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Smallc

[Shwa]

I posted direct quotes. But yet I'm "twisting things" because it contradicts what you are saying. Here's a hint: just because you're saying something, doesn't make it true. And just because I'm saying something different from you, doesn't mean I'm "twisting everything."

Again. I posted direct quotes, ie: facts, "twisting" nothing.

I repeat: "... it has only recently become an issue of public concern in Canada. A paucity of data on hate crime exists in Canada and future policy and legislative directions will rely heavily on such information."

"Future policy and legislative directions will rely heavily on such information," but yeah, it's much less an issue than in the United States. In fact, its hardly an issue at all.

I repeat: "Although a wealth of research and data exists in the United States..."

So then I would ask, why is there so much more information about hate crimes in the US than in Canada?

[Guest American Woman]

I repeat: "Although a wealth of research and data exists in the United States..."

So then I would ask, why is there so much more information about hate crimes in the US than in Canada?

Because Canada, up until now, hasn't gathered the information. That's not saying it hasn't been a problem, simply that Canada has taken longer to deal with it full force. A simple Google search verifies that Canada does have a racist past, including the KKK, and racism exists today. And it's going to get worse before it gets better, same as it did here. As I pointed out, your immigration policy is still new in that respect, but it's clear that problems are growing regarding minorities as your minority population grows. That's why I clarified that your problem has always existed comparable to ours for the percentage of minorities you are dealing with. Of course we had more instances by sheer number, because our numbers are so much higher. So numbers don't tell the story, which is why I'm not going by numbers.

And again, "visible minority" definitely does refer to race; it's synonymous with how we refer to "race" here in the Sates. It is an issue in Canada, an issue that's also tied to your immigration policy. I don't see how you can deny that. As immigration has moved away from mainly Western European nations to Eastern European nations and then to China, Africa, the Middle East, et al, there has been an increase in the objection, and that's been a major issue, both for Canadians and Canadian politics. It most definitely is an issue "in the forefront" of Canada.

I don't know why you have such a difficult time admitting that racism is an issue in Canada, too. As has been pointed out, Canada has Hate Laws that specifically deal with this issue. I doubt the idea behind the law was "preventive," as it seems ludicrous to me that Canada would suddenly "look at our South" and say 'hey, let's make laws to prevent that from happening here, even though it's not a major issue.' And the reality is, preventing people from saying hateful/violent things is not going to prevent them from carrying out acts of violence. Your incidence of hate crimes and gang growth pretty much verifies that observation.

You may address things differently than we do, you may refer to it by a different name, but that doesn't change the reality. You think the big push after 9-11, the "terrorist come in all colors" mini-posters handed out to the schools, etc, for example, isn't putting racism in the forefront?

Of course racism is an issue in the forefront in Canada, as it very well should be. There'd be something amiss within your government if it weren't.

[Shwa]

Because Canada, up until now, hasn't gathered the information.

And why is it that, up until now, Canada hasn't gathered the information?

[Guest American Woman]

And why is it that, up until now, Canada hasn't gathered the information?

It would seem that a sense of being/appearing PC is a major reason. But, as I've said, it's fairly recently that it's becoming more of an issue; the problems Canada/Canadians are facing are growing along with your minority population, so likely the government is finally seeing the benefit of gathering/keeping/making use of such information. It certainly sounds as if they plan to make use of it regarding future legislation, so whether or not they've done it in the past is irrelevant as they are doing it now; it's an issue in the forefront now, and has been for awhile.

[Smallc]

it's an issue in the forefront now, and has been for awhile.

No, it isn't, no matter how it may seem to you. The Prime Minister names a black governor general...and almost no one batted an eye. Many ministers and MPs and senators are what would be termed visible minorities....and almost no one cares. It simply isn't near the deal here that it is south of the border.

[Guest American Woman]

No, it isn't, no matter how it may seem to you. The Prime Minister names a black governor general...and almost no one batted an eye. Many ministers and MPs and senators are what would be termed visible minorities....and almost no one cares. It simply isn't near the deal here that it is south of the border.

I've heard repeatedly about your black Governor General, which, for the record, is not comparable to POTUS; and that's an important distinction regarding this discussion about Obama.

How many eyes were batted when blacks were named to other U.S. government posts? Most recently Powell and Rice, to positions at least as important worldwide as your GG. And we have several "visible minority" governors, senators, representatives, etc., and if any eyes were batted over it, you'll have to point out to me where, because people don't care any more than they do north of the border. The fact is, the people elected them. Same as we elected a "visible minority" POTUS, and if you don't think the rest of the world is making a big deal out of that, that the rest of the world doesn't care, you've been living in seclusion.

[Shady]

Really? Where is it at the forefront?

Every major Canadian city. Go live in Vancouver, Toronto, or Montreal and claim that race isn't a significant issue. Proclaiming that race isn't very important while living in rural and/or small urban settings is a huge projection. Any area with large populations will lead to some significant race issues. America has more larger cities, so it becomes a lot more prevelent.

Our Canadian pseudo-superiority complex over race is humorous.

[Smallc]

I've heard repeatedly about your black Governor General, which, for the record, is not comparable to POTUS; and that's an important distinction regarding this discussion about Obama.

You've heard repeatedly about it? Oh well, that must mean that Canada has a racial problem. Also, the Governor General is in fact comparable to the President of the United States. Her profile may be lower, but the duties that she carries out are similar.

How many eyes were batted when blacks were named to other U.S. government posts? Most recently Powell and Rice, to positions at least as important worldwide as your GG. And we have several "visible minority" governors, senators, representatives, etc., and if any eyes were batted over it, you'll have to point out to me where, because people don't care any more than they do north of the border. The fact is, the people elected them. Same as we elected a "visible minority" POTUS, and if you don't think the rest of the world is making a big deal out of that, that the rest of the world doesn't care, you've been living in seclusion.

I'm not sure what you're going on about, quite frankly. My point, is that for most people in this country, race is a non issue.

[Smallc]

Every major Canadian city. Go live in Vancouver, Toronto, or Montreal and claim that race isn't a significant issue. Proclaiming that race isn't very important while living in rural and/or small urban settings is a huge projection. Any area with large populations will lead to some significant race issues. America has more larger cities, so it becomes a lot more prevelent.

I've been to Toronto a few times, and Montreal once. I'm been to pretty much every major Canadian city. I've also lived in Winnipeg. Canadian cities most certainly do not have the racial issues or the the issues of urban decay that American cities have.

Our Canadian pseudo-superiority complex over race is humorous.

This, coming from you, is rather meaningless. It's quite clear that you have no love or care for this country.

[kimmy]

You've heard repeatedly about it? Oh well, that must mean that Canada has a racial problem.

"Racial problem" wasn't the claim being made. The claim was that race isn't an issue in Canada. The truth is, not only did people "bat an eye" when Michaele Jean was appointed GG, it was much applauded. Many Canadians were applauding it as a progressive and inclusive choice, one that sends an important message that visible minorities are important too, etc etc. And on the other hand some were criticizing her as an under-qualified "token minority" appointee.

Also, the Governor General is in fact comparable to the President of the United States. Her profile may be lower, but the duties that she carries out are similar.

One is an appointee, and the other is elected. One is a figurehead, and the other is the most powerful person in the world. One country appointed a visible minority to a figurehead post, and the other elected a black man to be the most powerful executive on the planet.

I'm not sure what you're going on about, quite frankly. My point, is that for most people in this country, race is a non issue.

The average Canadian is not a seething racist (and neither is the average American.) Most Canadians don't have a problem dealing with people of other races (again, neither do most Americans.) However, that's not the same thing as saying that "race is a non-issue".

Canada's history with indigenous peoples may not be directly comparable to the US experience with slavery, but it is nonetheless a big skeleton in our closet, and one that will haunt us forever. Whether the issue is land claims, residential schools, or appalling rates of unemployment, substance abuse, and suicide among native people, race is at the heart of some of Canada's deepest problems. Native issues ensure that race is never far from the forefront in Canada.

There are other issues where race is a factor too, such as gangs in Toronto and Vancouver and the prairies. The difference is that in Canada we tend to tip-toe around the issue of race when discussing those issues.

-k

[Smallc]

The average Canadian is not a seething racist (and neither is the average American.) Most Canadians don't have a problem dealing with people of other races (again, neither do most Americans.) However, that's not the same thing as saying that "race is a non-issue".

For most people in this country, it is. This country, of course has racial issues (as has been said in this thread over and over and over again), but they are not, not, to the same level as the issues in the US. They never have been at that level.

[Smallc]

One is an appointee, and the other is elected. One is a figurehead, and the other is the most powerful person in the world. One country appointed a visible minority to a figurehead post, and the other elected a black man to be the most powerful executive on the planet.

And? Your point is? We don't have the same system, so the best I can do is approximate. Oh, and the GG is not a figurehead. We saw that in 2008, and we've seen it a couple of times in the past.

[dre]

"Racial problem" wasn't the claim being made. The claim was that race isn't an issue in Canada. The truth is, not only did people "bat an eye" when Michaele Jean was appointed GG, it was much applauded. Many Canadians were applauding it as a progressive and inclusive choice, one that sends an important message that visible minorities are important too, etc etc. And on the other hand some were criticizing her as an under-qualified "token minority" appointee.

One is an appointee, and the other is elected. One is a figurehead, and the other is the most powerful person in the world. One country appointed a visible minority to a figurehead post, and the other elected a black man to be the most powerful executive on the planet.

The average Canadian is not a seething racist (and neither is the average American.) Most Canadians don't have a problem dealing with people of other races (again, neither do most Americans.) However, that's not the same thing as saying that "race is a non-issue".

Canada's history with indigenous peoples may not be directly comparable to the US experience with slavery, but it is nonetheless a big skeleton in our closet, and one that will haunt us forever. Whether the issue is land claims, residential schools, or appalling rates of unemployment, substance abuse, and suicide among native people, race is at the heart of some of Canada's deepest problems. Native issues ensure that race is never far from the forefront in Canada.

There are other issues where race is a factor too, such as gangs in Toronto and Vancouver and the prairies. The difference is that in Canada we tend to tip-toe around the issue of race when discussing those issues.

-k

"Racial problem" wasn't the claim being made. The claim was that race isn't an issue in Canada.

No the claim that started the comparison between US and Canada regarding race, was the ludcricous claim that race is a faultline in Canada to the same extent it is in the US.

There IS race issues in Canada, but compared to the US they are extremely minor.

The difference is that in Canada we tend to tip-toe around the issue of race when discussing those issues.

No thats not the case, and the whole comparison is just plain silly.

We might as well be comparing South Africa to Iceland.

Edited August 1, 2010 by dre

[dre]

And? Your point is? We don't have the same system, so the best I can do is approximate. Oh, and the GG is not a figurehead. We saw that in 2008, and we've seen it a couple of times in the past.

Funny, their STILL arguing against the strawman that "race is a complete and total non issue". Instead of trying to defend the origional ludicrous claim that race is a "fault-line" in Canada to the same extent it is in the US.

[dre]

Meanwhile...

The black panthers in the US are "arming" to fight the tea party weirdos... people are screaming "nigger!" at political rallies, and the ethnic vote happens almost completely along party lines (blacks all vote for one party).

But yeah... race is a faultline in Canada to the same extent

[Shwa]

It would seem that a sense of being/appearing PC is a major reason.

So let me get this straight:

The reason there is a paucity of data on hate crimes in Canada is because the Canadian government - along with the rest of Canadians - has been under the influence of political correctness all of these years, is this what you are saying.

But wait! There's more...

But, as I've said, it's fairly recently that it's becoming more of an issue;

Before it was "more of an issue" what was it? Was it less of an issue? Is this what you are implying?

And finally,

so whether or not they've done it in the past is irrelevant as they are doing it now;

OK, so the fact that the Canadian governments - along with Canada as a whole - hasn't been collecting hate crime data as long as, and as detailed as, the US is an indication of what?

-----------------------------------------

Let me ask you AW, how much of a foreground issue do you think Circumpolar Liason is in Canada? They have done studies, gathered statistics, done detailed investigations and examinations, had conferences and such, but overall, how much of an issue do you think it is with Canadians?

[Shwa]

Every major Canadian city. Go live in Vancouver, Toronto, or Montreal and claim that race isn't a significant issue. Proclaiming that race isn't very important while living in rural and/or small urban settings is a huge projection. Any area with large populations will lead to some significant race issues. America has more larger cities, so it becomes a lot more prevelent.

Our Canadian pseudo-superiority complex over race is humorous.

First of all shady - and dre is completely right on this - you are constructing a strawman argument about "race isn't a significant issue." No one has said that. Here is what I said:

but race - or ethnicity - will never carry the same connotation in Canada that race has in the US. The issues aren't hidden, or denied space in the media, they simply do not carry the same interest here.

So if you are going to argue, argue that race carries the same connotations here as it does in the US.

So along that line:

Every major Canadian city. Go live in Vancouver, Toronto, or Montreal and claim that race isn't a significant issue.

I live and work in the GTA, so there is no rural projection going on. Race has been much de-emphasized in favour of ethnicity, which is constantly being celebrated in the GTA. Caribana. Taste of the Danforth, TaiwanFest, Festival of India, Chinatown Festival, Yiddish Festival, etc., etc. Watch CityTV news; does anyone really care that Dwight Drummond is black? Heck, did anyone even notice? What about Andrea? How about Kris, Sangita Tara or Francis among others?

Proclaiming that race isn't very important while living in rural and/or small urban settings is a huge projection.

What sort of scale of projection occurs when the opinion is from someone from another country?

Any area with large populations will lead to some significant race issues. America has more larger cities, so it becomes a lot more prevelent.

Do you not think that prevalence of an issue affects the connotation in which that issue - or word in this case - has on the population that is experiencing the "lot more?"

Our Canadian pseudo-superiority complex over race is humorous.

Another strawman! This has absolutely nothing to do with superiority or inferiority, only difference.

[Guest American Woman]

You've heard repeatedly about it? Oh well, that must mean that Canada has a racial problem.

Where is that coming from? Kimmy already addressed this comment, coming out of left field as it is, and addressed it quite well. So I'll just add this: you made the comment that nary an eye was batted at her appointment, and I pointed out that her being black was definitely something that we heard about. Repeatedly. So look at your comment, look at my response, and ask yourself where in the world your "that must mean Canada has a racial problem" is coming from.

Also, the Governor General is in fact comparable to the President of the United States. Her profile may be lower, but the duties that she carries out are similar.

She is in no way comparable to the POTUS. Her profile is most definitely lower (much lower!), there's no "may be" about it, and her duties are not "similar" to the POTUS. Ask most people in the world who Canada's GG is and not only will they not know, they'll likely ask "what's a GG?"

I'm not sure what you're going on about, quite frankly. My point, is that for most people in this country, race is a non issue.

I'm not talking about "most people" in Canada; I'm saying race IS an issue in Canada, and one that's in the forefront. It's not an issue for "most people" in the U.S., either, yet it is very much an issue in U.S., and the same applies to Canada.

Kimmy addressed the other points I was going to bring up, so I'll leave it at that, as I can't say it any better than she did.

[Guest American Woman]

I've been to Toronto a few times, and Montreal once. I'm been to pretty much every major Canadian city. I've also lived in Winnipeg. Canadian cities most certainly do not have the racial issues or the the issues of urban decay that American cities have.

Let me get this straight. Because you've been to Toronto and Montreal, and "pretty much every major Canadian city" (which shall remain nameless, apparently), and because you've lived in Winnipeg, you feel qualified to compare Canadian cities to American cities?? You know all about racial issues and the issues of urban decay in American cities, how, exactly?

I recall a discussion about Winnipeg in regards to crime and racial tensions, and you said, having lived there, that the facts about crime in the articles cited didn't mean Winnipeg wasn't safe. Yet here you are, judging American cities from a distance. You seem to think you can dismiss media reports/statistics regarding Canada as 'not the way it is' as you rely on those very sources to claim, as fact, what it's like in the States.

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

[Guest American Woman]

...the Governor General is in fact comparable to the President of the United States. Her profile may be lower, but the duties that she carries out are similar.

From CBC News: The role of Canada's governor general

The governor general's duties, which are largely ceremonial, include:

Representing the Crown and ensuring there is always a prime minister.

Acting on advice of prime minister and cabinet ministers to give royal assent to bills passed in the Senate and House of Commons.

Signing state documents.

Reading the throne speech.

Presiding over swearing-in of the prime minister, chief justice and cabinet ministers.

That is in no way similar to the duties the POTUS carries out.

[Shady]

I've been to Toronto a few times, and Montreal once.

Wow, a few times huh? And Montreal once? Well then, you're clearly more qualified to speak on the subject than somebody who's in Toronto every week, reads Toronto newspapers, and watches Toronto television news.

So what's your opinion about Black gang violence in Toronto? And what's your opinion about Black leaders in Toronto feeling unfairly and disproportionately blamed for much of the violence? How about the anger from the Black community over a young boy being shot and killed a few months ago? Or was that not on your radar during the 3 times you've been to Toronto?

Or how about this stuff?

The mostly Tamil Sri Lankan youth around Scarborough who get called FOBs say the word is used as a weapon against them.

"It's like calling a black man, n-----," says a Grade 10 student at Stephen Leacock Collegiate, where Anandarajah attends Grade 12. The younger student is gathered after school with a half dozen friends that Anandarajah's group call FOBs.

The word and other slurs that accompany divisions within the same immigrant group have become common in the GTA.

In the 1980s, recently arrived Jamaican youth – "freshies" – were heckled by other Jamaican youth whose families had settled in the '60s and '70s. In Brampton's Springdale neighbourhood, turbaned Sikh youth recently arrived from India are commonly called "guru" and other derogatory terms by their "coconut" second-generation Punjabi-Canadian peers. And CBCs (Canadian-born Chinese), or "bananas," also commonly use the term FOB to distance themselves from new Chinese immigrants.

The Star

[Smallc]

From CBC News: The role of Canada's governor general

That is in no way similar to the duties the POTUS carries out.

Signing bills into law, and protecting the constitution. Yes, there are many differences, but in the Canadian context, it's about as close as you can get to the president in the US (since most of the power of the Crown is exercised by the governor general and not the Queen). Yes, many of the duties are ceremonial (read, constitutionally imperative), but there are others that are far from ceremonial. I don't really care what the media has to say on this particular issue. I study Canadian government, and what they say is rather irrelevant to me.

Oh, and yes, the profile is lower. The profile of Canada is lower too. I'm talking about the equivalency of the office, in which case, things aren't that far off (though it could be argued that the GG is in fact more similar to the vice president.

[Smallc]

reads Toronto newspapers, and watches Toronto television news. :rolleyes

Well, I do that all of the time.

So what's your opinion about Black gang violence in Toronto?

It's a small issue not even comparable to US issues regarding race.

And what's your opinion about Black leaders in Toronto feeling unfairly and disproportionately blamed for much of the violence?

See above.

How about the anger from the Black community over a young boy being shot and killed a few months ago? Or was that not on your radar during the 3 times you've been to Toronto?

See above.

Or how about this stuff?

What about that stuff? You apparently aren't paying attention to the conversation. What is being said is that race is LESS of an issue in Canada, not that it isn't an issue.