So it seems Ontario ER waits are improving....

[dre]

Our system used to be really good... so its not like we need to do anything outside the box. We just have to unbreak it.

I would recommend undoing every change we have made to it in the last 25 years. Restore the origional provincial / federal funding ratio, undo the various privatization attempts, get rid as much of the protectionism as possible, and go from there. After that we can start looking at the successful ideas other countries have implemented and see if we can incorporate some of them.

[bloodyminded]

BM, this argument is getting ridiculous. Some of us are taking a good experience just in their own community as indicative of the whole.

Not at all, WB! My whole point here was that if someone's anecdotal bad experience "proves" the case, then one person's anecdotal good experience does also; and they're clearly contradictory.

My point was that I do not think my good experience (although real) can sum up the system as a whole.

My repeated experiences are more similar to Argus'. We both live in Ontario. No one is trying to deny that Winnepeg may have higher levels of service or other parts of the country.

Well, I live in New Brunswick; not exactly nationally famous for its health-care superiority over other provinces.

Edited August 3, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Argus]

Our system used to be really good... so its not like we need to do anything outside the box. We just have to unbreak it.

I would recommend undoing every change we have made to it in the last 25 years.

The population has risen by about ten million people and its aged by quite a bit. Now I can't speak for other cities. But Ottawa has two fewer hospitals than it had in 1985. Does anyone care to speak about the great number of new hospitals being built or having been built over the last couple of decades in their cities? A lot of nursing homes going up?

[Smallc]

Lots of cities have had hospitals built and expanded. Toronto, Winnipeg, Sudbury, Thunder Bay, Edmonton, Calgary, Regina....do I have to continue?

These are just recent PCL projects, and all but two are in Canada:

http://www.pcl.com/watch_us_build/index.aspx

Edited August 6, 2010 by Smallc

[Argus]

The wait times for diagnosis and treatment of thyroid cancer in Canada are among the longest in the Western world, according to a new study.

The data, presented Monday at the International Thyroid Conference in Paris, found that waits of up to a year are not at all unusual.

CDN wait times among longest in western world

[Michael Hardner]

The wait times for diagnosis and treatment of thyroid cancer in Canada are among the longest in the Western world, according to a new study.

The data, presented Monday at the International Thyroid Conference in Paris, found that waits of up to a year are not at all unusual.

CDN wait times among longest in western world

Thanks, Argus, for posting this.

The telling thing is that this wasn't even on the news yesterday from what I heard. I've said it many times: If we're going to have socialized healthcare, we need to be better at monitoring our public service levels.

[Oleg Bach]

Don't go to a hospital unless you are dying or bleeding to death...ER rooms are for ameteurs and sissies...I avoid all that stuff..and keep myself alive though faith and knowledge of my own body, soul and mind - and besides the last doctor I went to misdiagnosed my compliant - He will NEVER operate on me - the dummies sees things that are not there - well what do you expect from a guy from Borneo of all places?

[Smallc]

Well, I'm not sure what that has to do with Ontario ERs.

[P. McGee]

I wonder if there is much ER congestion at hospitals where there is also a walk-in clinic onsite to deal with less urgent complaints. My experience in Ontario has been that there is often little or no waiting time when it's a matter needing immediate treatment. Another issue is that at some hospitals (and at certain times, like the night shift), a lot of the nurses would rather sit around and shoot the breeze with each other than go around and actually do their jobs.

[Michael Hardner]

I wonder if there is much ER congestion at hospitals where there is also a walk-in clinic onsite to deal with less urgent complaints. My experience in Ontario has been that there is often little or no waiting time when it's a matter needing immediate treatment. Another issue is that at some hospitals (and at certain times, like the night shift), a lot of the nurses would rather sit around and shoot the breeze with each other than go around and actually do their jobs.

Keep wondering.

We have no way of knowing and eHealth is maintaining radio silence. The Liberals don't want to bring it up, as their popularity seems to be down for some reason.

The messenger has been shot.

[wyly]

I wonder if there is much ER congestion at hospitals where there is also a walk-in clinic onsite to deal with less urgent complaints. My experience in Ontario has been that there is often little or no waiting time when it's a matter needing immediate treatment. Another issue is that at some hospitals (and at certain times, like the night shift), a lot of the nurses would rather sit around and shoot the breeze with each other than go around and actually do their jobs.

you're right, there was a time when there were more walk-in clinics where you could go to be stitched up or treated for less serious ailments...when clinics disappeared where does one go but to the ER, as there used to be more clinics than hospitals it's only logical when the clinics closed for whatever reason all those potential patients would end up in the ERs causing a backlog and long wait times...

and ERs prime objective is critical care, so ya if you have an ouchies or a sniffle you'll have to sit and wait while the cardiac patients and severely injured are dealt with first...I've been in ERs where I had to wait many hours with a non critical complaint but I've also been there when I was triaged to the head of the line(amputated digit)and was in surgery within an hour...

most of the complaints I see on the forum are based on ignorance by people who assume they know everything about how healthcare is delivered but actually know very little...

and as to thyroid cancer, it has one of the highest cure rates for cancer so while patients go into a panic at the mention of the C word the thyroid cancer most people get(80%) has a 97% cure rate ...

other types of cancer with high fatality rates will get quicker treatment...as in the case of my brother, three days from diagnosis to surgery for intestinal surgery....even with follow up chemo I doubt he will survive a year...

[gutb]

I've had the misfortune of experiencing 4 hospitals in Ontario, and they were without exception poor to abysmal Meanwhile in a small EU country I visted for work, I went to a PRIVATE hospital twice -- once for pain and once for a blood workup. The hospital had people in it, but not many, and both times I visited the wait time to get service was 0 mins for the blood and about 2 mins for a gp over the pain issue who was finishing up with another patient (referred to me by name by the hotel, my wait would have been 0 mins if I would have taken any doctor.) The doctor made me prescription and gave me his cell phone number in case I had trouble filling it, and told me that if I still couldn't get to sleep to call him and he'd send an ambulance and they'd put me to sleep in the hospital! For pain! Could you even conceive of a similar level of care in Canada -- let alone Ontario?

For my blood workup was finished within 20 mins of stepping into the hospital and that includes the time taken to go over the workup options and pay for it. My results were ready for me the same day. Beside the blood lab was a ct scan facility - which was EMPTY with its door open waiting for someone to simply walk in! People walking into a toronto hospital complaining of CHEST PAINS might have to wait a day before they get diagnostics, nevermind a ct scan, but in this tiny EU nation with signifacntly less wealth than Canada have hospitals and diagnostic clincs that put you through a ct scan on demand! Do anyone of you pay attention how much ypu spend on OHIP payments? For WHAT?! It's utterly absurd Canada thinks this system is acceptable.

[guyser]

I've had the misfortune of experiencing 4 hospitals in Ontario, and they were without exception poor to abysmal Meanwhile in a small EU country I visted for work, I went to a PRIVATE hospital twice -- once for pain and once for a blood workup.

Not that you care , but I call BS on this.

And include my diagnosis using this.....

People walking into a toronto hospital complaining of CHEST PAINS might have to wait a day before they get diagnostics, nevermind a ct scan,

Which we all know is patently untrue.

But go ahead, slag it with your silly bon mots all you want.

Edit to add: It must really suck at St Mikes, what with Dr's from all over the world (even the US -hi BC <wave>) coming there to learn new procedures.

They must teach them incompetency. Same goes for Toronto Western and their eye department.

Edited September 15, 2010 by guyser

[guyser]

you're right, there was a time when there were more walk-in clinics where you could go to be stitched up or treated for less serious ailments...when clinics disappeared where does one go but to the ER, as there used to be more clinics than hospitals it's only logical when the clinics closed for whatever reason all those potential patients would end up in the ERs causing a backlog and long wait times

More clinics today than yesterday, unless somne closed this afternoon.

Anything else?

[Wild Bill]

...as in the case of my brother, three days from diagnosis to surgery for intestinal surgery....even with follow up chemo I doubt he will survive a year...

You have my condolences. Hopefully he will beat the odds!

I lost my own brother a few years ago. Sudden heart attack. He had always aced his physicals and bloodwork, the last being only a month before. No warning signs but his arteries had just hardened up and an attack came out of the blue.

I could never really empathize until I experienced such a loss myself. I wish both you and your brother all the best.

[gutb]

Not that you care , but I call BS on this.

And include my diagnosis using this.....

Which we all know is patently untrue.

But go ahead, slag it with your silly bon mots all you want.

Edit to add: It must really suck at St Mikes, what with Dr's from all over the world (even the US -hi BC <wave>) coming there to learn new procedures.

They must teach them incompetency. Same goes for Toronto Western and their eye department.

Whatever lets you deal with your cognitive dissonance. The Ontario hospitals I've been in have been decrepit cespools; and except a few late-night visits to a hospital in Ottawa many years ago, are stuffed to bursting with patients waiting for service. To crontrast this, the private hospital I've been to, http://www.aretaeio.com/ was very clean, tidy, and only lightly populated with patients. How they work is that you walk in, follow the signs to the wing that has the department you're looking for with a large information desk just past the front doors to direct visitors to where they need to go for a service. In every wing there is a check-in desk that services 4-6 rooms (facilities, doctors, etc). You go to the desk, and they'll give you a menu on lamenated cards on different types of procedures with the prices listed. Now I was in the diagnostics wing, and I don't know how many kinds of services they handle this way, but there was a menu for different levels of CT scans I mentioned earlier (I also saw CT scans advertised online, one clinic was offering a "full" job for around 1,000 Euros (about $1,200-$1,300). After choosing the procedure, you pay them or present your insurance card, and they give you a recipt. Then, if you don't have to wait, you simply walk into the room, and a doctor immediately services you -- they don't deal with payments at all, they are focused only on care; the fact that you are in their room is enough for them. The total experience is completely unlike anything I came to expect dealing with hospitals in Ottawa and the GTA; the stress level is 0, it takes something that I dreaded (going to the hospital) and turns it into an experience akin to going in to a garage to have an oil change.

I've paid a significant chuck of my income my whole life into OHIP and federal taxes which has done nothing for me except produce trashy walk-in "clinics", one of which is disgusting and smells of urine. Thankfully I haven't required a serious medical procedure YET, but seeing how badly our medical care has degraded in terms of actual care and service level makes me nervous for the future. And some hospitals, namely that hellhole Credit Valley Hospital, is maybe good enough for sick old grandmothers from 3rd-world countries being brough tin on family sponsorship programs simply because people from 3rd-world crapholes don't have much expectation in the way of public healthcare to begin with, but do you want yourselves, or your parents to go be processed in a mill like that? I used to be generally against private healthcare in Canada -- a long time ago, but as I'm getting older, I'd gladly pay the double premium to at least have easy access to quality health care. If that won't happen, maybe I can look into some sort of insurance program that offers ambulance service to the States. I'm over the fact that my taxes have basically been going into job programs from a government employment empire, I just throw OHIP in with the other taxes now, and prepare myself mentally for the requirement to drop 10-20k in case I need to. I'm sorry that leaves Canadians with less means than I in the cespool, but if you guys want a change I'll back you up.

[guyser]

Whatever lets you deal with your cognitive dissonance. The Ontario hospitals I've been in have been decrepit cespools; and except a few late-night visits to a hospital in Ottawa many years ago, are stuffed to bursting with patients waiting for service. To crontrast this, the private hospital I've been to, http://www.aretaeio.com/ was very clean, tidy, and only lightly populated with patients.

One cannot compare that hospital to one in ONtario for numerous reasons and some of them legal.

That said your complete dismissal on Ont hospitals comes across as whiney. We do need changes, but we also have to manage the unrealistic expectations of an increasingly whiney populace who use hospitals for the most inane reasons.

And I can compete with you on the anecdotal data all day long.......2.5 years everyday in St Joes, triple bypass done in 3 days from diagnosis (2 if it hadnt been so late in the day) cancer diagnosis and treatment in less than a week and it was non-urgent to boot.

As for spending so much time in the damn things, the first thing that comes to mind when I hear the complaints are the whiney dumb ass moms and dads demanding lil susie be seen for her hangnail...."before that guy with his leg cut off cuz we were first"

[gutb]

One cannot compare that hospital to one in ONtario for numerous reasons and some of them legal.

That said your complete dismissal on Ont hospitals comes across as whiney. We do need changes, but we also have to manage the unrealistic expectations of an increasingly whiney populace who use hospitals for the most inane reasons.

And I can compete with you on the anecdotal data all day long.......2.5 years everyday in St Joes, triple bypass done in 3 days from diagnosis (2 if it hadnt been so late in the day) cancer diagnosis and treatment in less than a week and it was non-urgent to boot.

As for spending so much time in the damn things, the first thing that comes to mind when I hear the complaints are the whiney dumb ass moms and dads demanding lil susie be seen for her hangnail...."before that guy with his leg cut off cuz we were first"

I know that what you are doing is trying to enforce a sense of optimism given your condition -- but if we had a medical care system that fostered a culture of CARE and spent money on cutting-edge equipment facilities and procedures instead of a massive Provincial jobs empire, there is a very good chance you would have been diagnosed earlier which in the case of cancer, could mean the difference between life and death. And frankly? If you were in such a critical state that you got an Ontario hospital to move as fast as 3 days on a triple bypass tells me you had suffered from an attack and every hour you spent without surgery was potentially life-threatening -- under those conditions, it's ABSURD it would take them 3 DAYS to operate on you.If you were my father I'd have you helicoptered to the States the the same moment they told me it'd take 3 DAYS to operate.

[guyser]

I know that what you are doing is trying to enforce a sense of optimism given your condition --

A sense of optimism. Gee thanks !

The care I and my family received could not have been better thanks.

As for the cancer, what, docs roam the streets with cancer sniffing dogs now? Who knew? (How in hell would one get a faster result when they never went to the doc in the first place, at least not until the presence of a UTI came about)

[guyser]

...me you had suffered from an attack and every hour you spent without surgery was potentially life-threatening -- under those conditions, it's ABSURD it would take them 3 DAYS to operate on you.If you were my father I'd have you helicoptered to the States the the same moment they told me it'd take 3 DAYS to operate.

Smart move, take the guy suffering from heart problems from one of the best (if not the)in the world to an inferior hospital. Helicoptered to the States....sheesh.As if that some panacea.

[wyly]

More clinics today than yesterday, unless somne closed this afternoon.

Anything else?

so you're telling us that people prefer to line up for endless hours in an ER when they can help in a local walk-in clinic in a hour or two? do you expect anyone to believe that?

[wyly]

You have my condolences. Hopefully he will beat the odds!

I lost my own brother a few years ago. Sudden heart attack. He had always aced his physicals and bloodwork, the last being only a month before. No warning signs but his arteries had just hardened up and an attack came out of the blue.

I could never really empathize until I experienced such a loss myself. I wish both you and your brother all the best.

thanks Bill...I always expected he would be the first among my siblings to go he lives a horrid lifestyle, heavy drinking, smoking and junk food but when the consquences of that lifestyle finally arrived it's still a real shock...

[guyser]

so you're telling us that people prefer to line up for endless hours in an ER when they can help in a local walk-in clinic in a hour or two? do you expect anyone to believe that?

No, I said more now than before to contradict your statement. How that transpires into line ups etc is beyond me.

[Argus]

I wonder if there is much ER congestion at hospitals where there is also a walk-in clinic onsite to deal with less urgent complaints. My experience in Ontario has been that there is often little or no waiting time when it's a matter needing immediate treatment.

Name these hospitals.

[Argus]

As for spending so much time in the damn things, the first thing that comes to mind when I hear the complaints are the whiney dumb ass moms and dads demanding lil susie be seen for her hangnail...."before that guy with his leg cut off cuz we were first"

Putting the best possible spin on things, the Ontario government claims that wait times - for 4 out of 5 patients - is about 5 hours for simple problems. I don't call that efficiency. And what about those other 20% anyway? And how do they define simple? As opposed to "Complex conditions/requiring more time for diagnosis, treatment or hospital bed admission". For example, if I have to get blood tests and x-rays am I now a "complex condition requiring more time for diagnosis.."? The wait time on average then doubles (for 4 out of 5 people). Of course, if you're in Ottawa, you can practically double that again. ER wait times for "complex" conditions are 17 hrs (for 4/5 people) at the Ottawa Hospital - according to the provincial government.

The myth that people go in for unimportant things is ludicrous on the face of it, unless you think people enjoy spending hours in an ER waiting room.

And by the way, cutting off the worst 20% in order to make your wait times sound better is about as phony an example of statistical honesty as I've seen. And here I thought Liberals were so dedicated to honest and complete statistics.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Argus